Sorry Dazh, I deleted that, as I felt I was being unnecessarily rude.
Don't be daft. I don't take any offence at (almost) anything said on here 😄
Is that not the plan?
It would appear so. The trouble is that voters don't want establishment politics, which is why they're floundering. The tories have recognised this and are doing a quite amazing job at fooling everyone into thinking they're the opposite of what they really are. As I keep saying, labour under Starmer are about 20-30 years behind everyone else.
You brought up Starmer being put in place to “keep out Corbyn”
Indeed.
Whether we like it or not, most voters couldn't give a toss about Indian farmers or Cuban doctors. For that reason we have the Tories slashing our international aid budget, when places like Yeman need it more than ever.
Would a labour government of any stripes do this? Of course they bloody wouldn't! Which is exactly why saying comparing Starmer to the Tory party and saying they're the same is patently ridiculous.
And also why Corbyns crass, foghorn virtue-signalling plays straight into the hands of the 'we need to look after our own first' brigade, of which there are unfortunately many.
Certain things you do by stealth. Just get yourself elected first so you're in a position do so. Use a bit of political nouse
The trouble is that voters don’t want establishment politics
A huge amount of them do, actually. Which is exactly why we've got yet another PM who got there via Eton and Oxford and pinning a Tory rosette on. The fact that he's an English nationalist won't even have registered with a lot of voters. They are very much voting for the establishment and 'Boris' is the living embodiment of it.
I know that your green anarcho-lefty credentials won't allow you to accept this uncomfortable truth, but there it is.
After the last five years of Corbynism, which was an open goal for the right wing press, there will be a lot of the population who still regard Starmer as a dangerous radical and the labour party as a communist, terrorist-sympathising rabble.
Thats not Starmers fault. But he's the man tasked with repairing the damage. I think you're massively underestimating the size of the job he's faced with
Indeed... unbelievable though it is... millions of people vote Conservative not Labour because they think the former party is a better bet to run the country... despite all the evidence of their eyes. Say anything about this government's many, many failings... and you will hear "it would have been even worse if Labour had won"... no evidence provided... just the feeling that Labour were not ready to govern at the last election. I don't think that can be turned around in a few short years... it's an uphill battle... but it's what the current Labour leader and his team are trying to do. And, no, I don't think Starmer is the person to pull it off... but, sadly, he might still have been the best person to do so out of those that put themselves forward to be leader.
I'd be most interested in just one example of this ever happening. The identity-politics fed 'Britishness' nonsense is a distraction from the class issues of jobs, pay, housing, discrimination which people are affected by and the LP should be campaigning around. However if you want to be seen to stick up for the renters and mortgagees as well as actually backing the landlords and the banks then slogans as of necessity need to advance into the realms of the abstract values.
If you haven't heard Starmer, and his front bench, talking about jobs, pay, housing and discrimination... you aren't listening to them at all.
The identity-politics fed ‘Britishness’ nonsense is a distraction from the class issues of jobs, pay, housing, discrimination which people are affected by and the LP should be campaigning around.
A very, very, very effective distraction thats being very skilfully manipulated by an extremely effective team with the full support of a compliant media
Like I've said many times, you need to deal with the world as it is, not as how we'd like it to be. You may not like the country we live in, but we already know where retreating into a lefty cloud-cuckooland gets us....
An English nationalist government with an 80 seat majority
Time for the labour party to re-engage with the real world
I'm really glad to see people cherry-picking tweets from someone who used to be in the Labour Party, really brings a new level of pointless whataboutery to the thread.
you aren’t listening to them at all.
No one is, that's the problem.
A very, very, very effective distraction thats being very skilfully manipulated by an extremely effective team with the full support of a compliant media
Weird how this was apparently a loony conspiracy theory when people said exactly the same about the previous Labour leader eh?
Use a bit of political nouse
How's that going? Imaging abandoning virtually all your supposed principles to try and be popular but STILL being 13 points behind the most corrupt and incompetent government in living memory...
Weird how this was apparently a loony conspiracy theory when people said exactly the same about the previous Labour leader eh?
I've never said that.
It has always been thus, and always will be.
The trick is not to willingly supply them with open goal after open goal and clumsily blunder into every single elephant trap they set for you, which the labour party spent 5 years doing
Starmer has that as his starting point and he has to build from the residual feeling in the electorate about half a decade of incompetence and rank stupidity from Labour
A huge amount of them do, actually.
It's funny that you draw almost the opposite conclusions from everything that's currently happening in politics than I do. Does brexit, the nationalist takeover of the tories, the revival of the left under Corbyn, the demise of the lib dems and abject failure of Change UK not tell you that establishment centrism is dead? It couldn't be clearer from where I'm standing, yet you still hang on to it like a religion.
The public don’t give a damn about “centrism”… it’s not a thing for them. They just don’t want a left wing government they don’t trust to run the UK. As soon a accusations of ‘centrism’ is thrown about, they assume it’s coming from left wingers from their bunkers. The sad truth is, 2017 saw a revived left Labour Party under Corbyn (one I finally felt I could vote for) timed with a Tory party moving further right as it claimed the 2016 vote justified a hard Brexit, not a ‘compromised’ Brexit. This bump in the fortunes of Labour at the polls was over interpreted as the voters moving towards the left. That may have happened amongst the youngest voters, but not the population as a whole. 2019 didn’t seek to consolidate and expand the appeal of a Left Labour, it was taken as a chance to move policy further left… one surprise announcement at a time… and to double down on Corbyn as leader… sadly that really didn’t pay off.
How’s that going? Imaging abandoning virtually all your supposed principles to try and be popular but STILL being 13 points behind the most corrupt and incompetent government in living memory…
You know what the public, the average voter, sees right now?
An effective vaccination programme that provides a way out of lockdown and the life reverts to as normal as we can expect.
Thats it! full stop. End of story. Everything else is irrelevant
Thats the only game in town right now, whether you, me or Keir Starmer likes it or not. And its being effectively weaponised accordingly
My worry is that this is Boris's 'Falkland Islands' moment and that he'll call a quick election off the back of it when everything's opened up. As Fatcha proved, get a big win like that and all else is forgiven.
of story.
Thats the only game in town right now, whether you, me or Keir Starmer likes it or not
Starmer can see that. Check his Twitter banner…
The vaccination rollout has to be used to remind people how beneficial the NHS is... Labour needs to use it to make the case for public services... and push for pay rises for staffing, and investment more generally. Real investment. Where are those 40 hospitals...?
When I resigned from the LP I thought 'who and what in this crisis has been the most useful?' and the clear winners were Independent Sage and.... Singletrack. So my membership fees were switched from the LP to 'Full member'. Not sure what the message is here but I'm sure there is one.
I'm still wracking my brains to come up with a sneaky socialist who got elected on a RW platform then came good, it's always the bloody opposite.
One year in, leader of the opposition.
Losing voters.
Most memorable quote, " I support the government."
Successful first year?
If it's "I support the government's vaccine rollout".. then yes.
But Starmer has paired that with criticism, and importantly called for different measures, as regards the pandemic constantly for months now. If you only hear the bits where the opposition seek to offer support to the government where it is justified and needed, that's down to you. Pick any week in the last 6 months, and they'll be a Starmer quote about the government's failings, and what he would do differently if he was PM.
Care to expand on why you believe this is occurring?
The absence of an opposition worth the name.
One year in, leader of the opposition.
Losing voters.
He's not losing them. 'Boris' is winning them with the successful vaccination programme. That's all people see right now. And that's totally understandable. Most people don't follow politics. They just see a government that now has an agenda to restore things to normal. The fact that it comes after a year of incompetence and corruption is quickly forgotten
When I resigned from the LP I thought ‘who and what in this crisis has been the most useful?’ and the clear winners were Independent Sage and…. Singletrack.
And you put me onto those Independent Sage videos... thanks for that. They've been brilliant. Concise and informative. A must watch.
There have been many occasions where Independent Sage and Labour have been in step about the measures needed in this pandemic (and then, when the documents were released later, it turns out so where actual SAGE)... while the Government stuck their heads in the sand and eventually acted far too late... again and again. Plenty of occasions where it was clear we have the wrong party in government. Well, clear to me. Not sure why you've withdrawn your support. Will you still vote Labour, or are you one of the "no real difference" people? I've never been a member myself, well done for getting involved in some form.
ransos Free Member
Care to expand on why you believe this is occurring?
The absence of an opposition worth the name.
Sorry... my irony-meter just exploded 😀
Will you still vote Labour, or are you one of the “no real difference” people?
Both.
Sorry… my irony-meter just exploded 😀
Sooner or later, even you will realise that the conversation isn't about Corbyn.
Both.
Fair enough. I’d go for "not enough difference", perhaps.
The public don’t give a damn about “centrism”
And they don't give a damn about left or right either. What they do give a damn about is that they have politicians who serve them and not a tiny few people at the top, and who can be trusted and transparent in doing so. That's why Corbyn won the labour leadership, and surprised everyone in 2017, because despite his devisive history and 'lefty' politics people trusted him. It's also why he tanked in 2019, because he lost that trust after two years of the media and his own MPs calling him a racist and compromising himself on brexit, which made him look like every other lying politician. It's also why Starmer is failing. People look at him and see another machine politician, who inherently can't be trusted to serve their interests instead of those of the elite.
And they don’t give a damn about left or right either.
Not true. "Left" is a bogeyman term for many people (including those who support many left wing policies). Especially if you can put "Far" in front or it (justifiably or not). Get actual communists put into the mix, and the public can increasingly lose trust fast. As they did between 2017 and 2019, for sure.
Now both you and Bill have tried to pull this back to "a witch hunt"... (check out his list of people of "the left" he claims were run out of the party... and your "MPs calling him a racist")... I'm going to take a break from this thread. Starmer will keep trying to reframe Labour to have a wider appeal... he'll fail, or at least be outflanked by a government who can actually do things, not just talk about them... some of the Left will feel vindicated... others will just despair about it.... around in circles it will go.
I think you're over-thinking this, mate.
That’s why Corbyn won the labour leadership, and surprised everyone in 2017, because despite his devisive history and ‘lefty’ politics people trusted him.
You need to ease off on the crack during the day mate, seriously. Tusted him? Absolutely nobody apart from a bunch of sixth formers and trots ever trusted Corbyn. Even natural labour voters had to hold their noses to vote for him. It was just Theresa May being stupefyingly awful and running the worst election campaign in human history that delivered that result. He still lost! Quite an achievement
People look at him and see another machine politician, who inherently can’t be trusted to serve their interests instead of those of the elite.
The vaccination programme and absolutely nothing else is responsible for the Tories bounce in popularity. It's all thats presently registering with anybody. The light at the end of the tunnel. Do you seriously believe that even his most enthusiastic supporters look at Boris and think 'theres a man we can trust who is definitely serving my interests'?
Don't be daft 😀
Plenty of people are grateful for the NHS vaccination roll-out but they understand it's success is in spite of Johnson not because of him. Even when this phase is over and there's a return to a semblance of normality I don't see the LP elevating itself out of terminal decline under its present leadership. In a society massively divided by class inequality you can only back one side or the other and Starmer has come out on the side of business and lost votes.
and Starmer has come out on the side of business and lost votes.
I know I've asked this before, without any of you providing an answer, but I'll give it another go' eh?...
Can you list specific examples of Starmers supposed representation of the agenda of corporate interests please?
Off you go...
It was just Theresa May being awful
The vaccination programme and absolutely nothing else is responsible for the Tories bounce in popularity
Convenient excuses to fit your opinion. The main reason Corbyn won the labour leadership wasn't his fondness for 70s bennite socialism, it was his authenticity as a representative and advocate of normal people rather than being a professional politician representing the elite. That's why he tanked in 2019 because he stopped being that.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">DO you seriously believe that even his most enthusiastic supporters look at Boris and think ‘theres a man we can trust’?</span>
Why do you even doubt it? Turn on the tv, radio, read a newspaper. Everyone thinks he's a straight up bloke trying his best despite the shadowy bureaucrats trying to stop him.
you can only back one side or the other
Failed.
[ shut up Kelvin, leave it... stay away]
The main reason Corbyn won the labour leadership wasn’t his fondness for 70s bennite socialism, it was his authenticity as a representative and advocate of normal people rather than being a professional politician representing the elite.
The only reason he won the Labour leadership was that Ed Milliband changed the leadership election rules to allow an unholy alliance of old marxists and opportunistic Torys to join in and elect the most useless Labour leader imaginable
That’s why he tanked in 2019 because he stopped being that.
For the real reason he lost that election and the one before, see above
If you really think the wave of support for Corbyn came exclusively from old marxists you have zero clue what you are talking about. I used to photograph student-y reggae/dub club nights where the MCs were mostly black British older guys maybe 30-50, and I more than once heard some of them make little speeches about JC and how they don't normally bother voting but they would vote for him. Can you imagine that happening with any other politician?
Call it a populist fad if you want but don't just talk utter mince about trots. How many trots do you think there are out there exactly?
The only reason he won the Labour leadership was that Ed Milliband changed the leadership election rules to allow an unholy alliance of old marxists and opportunistic Torys to join in and elect the most useless Labour leader imaginable
Good grief, not this old cobblers again. He won the two leadership elections decisively across the three segments of electors. Those are the facts, however inconvenient they may be to your narrative.
If you think that was achieved by "old marxists and opportunistic Torys" then please take more water with it.
Anyway, the Corbyn thread is ------->. We're here to talk about Starmer's success.
Corbyn brought people to Labour, no question about that. More and different people need to join them, and the tricky part for Starmer is getting them under an umbrella big enough for all of them.
an unholy alliance of old marxists and opportunistic Torys to join in and elect the most useless Labour leader imaginable
Sorry but that's a fantasy. You'd have a point if he squeaked in with a tiny majority, but it was massive and can't be explained by a tiny number of ex-socialist workers and tory trolls. Even if you were anywhere near correct, then how do you explain the second, even larger victory which didn't have the 3 quid supporters? I do wonder why you're in the labour party when you have an almost pathological dislike of almost everyone in it apart from a few careerist MPs.
Anyway, back to Starmer. As I've said on your point about his support for corporations, the burden of proof is on him to demonstrate that he's different to all the centrists who came before him and that he'll uphold his leadership campaign promises. Perhaps you'd like to present some evidence on his behalf?
kelvin, LEAVE IT, IT'S NOT WORTH IT 😛
It's weird looking at the 10 pledges on his website, it almost seems like something he left up by mistake.
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
kelvin, LEAVE IT, IT’S NOT WORTH IT
I know, sorry.
The not-very-leftwing Keynes' ideas could be used to 'back both sides'. You support business by increasing the income of the people who (because they don't have a lot of it) spend it all plus maybe a bit they've borrowed and this is multiplied around the system of exchange. Maybe Biden had similar ideas. So Starmer should be arguing for 'trickle up' policies, will he though?
Maybe. I'd go much further... "security" of income allows people to spend (or invest) more freely.... in a way slightly more income does not. Universal Basic Income. Labour won't go for it though. I'd have it as a central policy. I'd be shocked if Starmer backed it near the next general election... it would be politically risky... I'd push for it if I was a member though. Perhaps I should take your place Bill...
Universal Basic Income. Labour won’t go for it though. I’d have it as a central policy.
Never have I agreed with you more. UBI is the single most progressive, transformative and effective policy that could be implemented, and that's why they won't do it, because it's nothing short of revolutionary. It is however inevitable, because short of culling millions of people, how are we going to keep people occupied and provide them with security in the face of automation? The response to the destruction of industry was to create millions of pointless bullshit jobs, but that's not goinig to work in future, because it's the bullshit jobs which automation will replace.
If the labour party can't support and promote policies like UBI then there's really no point in it, and they should make way for others who will. If they carry on as they are then I'm pretty certain the voters will decide for them, because they're going to fade into irrelevant obscurity like other political movements and parties before them which refused to adapt to future challenges.
The response to the destruction of industry was to create millions of pointless bullshit jobs, but that’s not goinig to work in future, because it’s the bullshit jobs which automation will replace.
It's not just the bullshit jobs that will be replaced: doctors, lawyers and architects are all predicted to be vulnerable to automation also.
Not a bad article from Rachel Reeves MP:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/03/our-search-national-story
Totally agree with what she's saying about how Starmer and co. need to reconnect, a bit light on the 'how' though.
The widening gap between rich and poor leads to a crisis of overproduction so assets go off in pursuit of rent-seeking (or even 'waste' expenditure on Bezos-style space adventures). It's the inefficiency arising from the unequal allocation of resources and underemployment of productive capacity that produces the bullshit jobs. It's not just technology driven, someone has to make those machines, it's about the chaos and inefficiency of capitalism.
It's the same system just different conditions. Wilson went on about 'the white-hot technological revolution', pure flannel.
Not a bad article from Rachel Reeves MP:
I disagree. It only reinforces the point on where labour are currently going wrong. It's a long and simple history lesson for anyone who pays attention to these things, with a small amount of hollow rhetoric about what labour should do, and absolutely no clue on how they propose to do it.
We don't need the likes of Rachel Reeves (or more likely some oxford educated intern) to write a couple of thousand words telling us what's wrong, we already know. What we need to know is what the **** they're going to do about it? Do they not understand that it's time they stopped going on about the past and start looking to the future?
Did she pinch this from a John Major speech?
"Labour will champion common decency and togetherness so that we can forge a new path for Britain. We want this to be the best country to grow up in and the best country to grow old in. For all of us, however we vote and wherever we come from, rebuilding a stronger and fairer society as we emerge from the pandemic must be a national undertaking. "
