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I really like my “boss”. There’s more than one way to cynically divide up the population.
There's some lovely smiley people out there extracting the surplus value from their underlings. Do you imagine that the capitalist system is divided between the nasty and the nice?
kerley Free Member
I live in a wealthy village in the New Forest. Retired doctors, senior people in companies etc,. stupid they are not.
On the other hand I’m a C2 who left school with only CSEs and hates the EU. So I guess I fit the stereotype nicely.
Yep, stupid racist.
So the posh people in your wealthy village didn't support brexit because they are stupid. However in my case because I am working-class it must be because I am stupid.
Well there's nothing quite like a bit of bigoted class prejudice, on a forum full of middle-class guardian-reading liberals.
So the posh people in your wealthy village didn’t support brexit because they are stupid.
They are not stupid in a qualification/job sense but I would say they are stupid politically based on their understanding of EU and Tories.
However in my case because I am working-class it must be because I am stupid.
I really didn't think a smiley was necessary on that one but here you go 🙂
So now you're smiling whilst calling me stupid?!?!
ffs
The comment "Yep, stupid racist" was clearly (well I thought so) meant as a joke.
No I am not seriously calling you a stupid racist.
Hang on...
Tony Blair, the arch-blairite Labour politician
What? Blair's a Blairite? Jawdrop emoji.
was making it crystal clear that he didn’t want to see a left-wing Labour government.
...I thought he was saying he didn't think Corb would be a good PM. Can you link the relevant quote? Actually no need, because who cares? He's an ex pol who still comments and gets on the news but has no position or major influence that I can see.
Come on Earnie, you're smart, not a racist, and had very reasonable objections to things done at the EU level. In terms of being pro-Brexit... I still don't think you've seriously grasped what and who Brexit enables, and what they are going to do to us with the power we've given them.
FFS I was taking the piss! It's what I do! Nothing discussed on here actually matters.
Anyway on a more serious note my point still stands.
Middle-class liberals are very quick to characterise working-class people who support brexit as stupid thick racists.
And yet I have never heard a middle-class liberal describe Tony Benn as a stupid thick racist.
In the 1980s it was Labour Party policy to leave the EEC. Obviously the party was then full of stupid thick racists, but I have never heard a middle-class liberal describe Michael Foot as a stupid thick racist.
So why is that? Well Tony Benn and Michael Foot were both middle-class educated lefties, like themselves, so it is not possible that they were stupid thick racists.....they probably even read the Guardian.
So yeah, bigoted class prejudice by middle-class guardian-reading liberals is very much alive. Ironically.
In the 1980s it was Labour Party policy to leave the EEC.
...and some cough*Corbyn*cough remained stuck in that era. As is pointed out extensively in other threads. Brexit and thick racist are overlapping circles on the Venn, but not the same thing.
Brexit and thick racist are overlapping circles on the Venn
Is that something to do with maths?
I only got CSE maths.
Plenty of 'thick' racist middle-class people in the current cabinet. Some are only there because of Brexit, they'd never have got the posts they now have without it.
Stay for the extra pint, cajole and persuade.
You’d be better off trying to teach a cat to windsurf
You’d be better off trying to teach a cat to windsurf
Don't undersell yourself binners, I have seen your remarkable eloquence on here.
If there's one man who can cajole and persuade it's got to be you.
Just remember to take your blood pressure tablet before you walk into the Rose and Crown.
Just remember to take your blood pressure tablet before you walk into the Rose and Crown.
Does it have a big screen for sports that he could connect a laptop to and so educate them via the use of hilarious images?
Nothing discussed on here actually matters.
Always amazed at the number of people on here who haven't grasped this central truth.
Middle-class liberals are very quick to characterise working-class people who support brexit as stupid thick racists.
Or nazi appeasers 😏
…and some cough*Corbyn*cough remained stuck in that era.
And ironically had Corbyn stuck to his 1980s views on the EEC labour might have held on to many of those brexit voting seats in the north and the midlands.
And probably held even fewer seats nationwide.
And probably held even fewer seats nationwide.
Yes of course, because under the visionary leadership of prime-minister-to-be Jo Swinson, the resurgent Lib Dems would have wiped the floor against labour just like they did in 2017. We have the power of hindsight now, and the facts are pretty clear that the remainer lib dem threat to labour was non-existent compared to the brexit supporting tory threat in red-wall seats.
There are very few Labour vs LibDem marginals... so I have no idea what you're on about.
There are very few Labour vs LibDem marginals…
Which doesn't really help your point. It comes down to whether the labour remain vote was bigger than the labour brexit vote in labour marginals. The labour leadership, under pressure from centrist remainers such as Starmer made a decision to fall on the remain side of the fence. Evidently that was a catastrophically wrong decision given that we now know the election result.
To put it simply... in most seats people deciding not to vote Labour gives us more Conservative MPs, not more LibDem ones. A firmly "Brexit at all costs, no further votes" policy would have decimated Labour support in many seats. Voters would have stayed away, or voted Green, LibDem, PC... resulting in more Tory MPs not more Green or LibDem seats (well, apart from a small number possible of seats).
A firmly “Brexit at all costs, no further votes” policy would have decimated Labour support in many seats. Voters would have stayed away, or voted Green, LibDem, PC…
But the evidence of the election doesn't support that does it? You're just assuming that's the case to support your remain position and justify the labour pro-remain policy. Labour didn't have a pro-remain policy in 2017 and didn't lose all it's support as you suggest. The only thing we know for certain is that labour shifted to a pro-remain policy and lost loads of seats in it's traditional heartlands to the tories, which it previously held with a 'respect the result' policy.
Middle-class liberals are very quick to characterise working-class people who support brexit as stupid thick racists.
Interesting article I read about why many people with heritage from the Indian sub-continent voted Brexit - essentially a lot of them wondered why it was that they fought for Britain/the allies in WWII but then had less rights/a harder time staying here than people from nations we'd fought against or who hadn't done as much. Also perhaps that we owed a debt from colonial exploitation etc. Interesting perspective and one I'd not considered.
justify the labour pro-remain policy
Labour didn’t have a pro-remain policy in 2019. It had a fudged policy to try and fight many different fights in many different types of seat. It didn't "work", but let's not kid ourselves that Labour were doing well before they adopted that fudge. They were fourth in the polls at one point.
.
Ooh you don't say Ed. Go big? Oh what with big macroeconomic policy. Yes of course. People on s/t don't believe it though. They think being successful is all about PMQs.
Mind you you're not Corbyn so they probably will agree, and because it's in the Guardian it will be a great piece
They were fourth in the polls at one point.
Let's not also forget Labour were 9pts ahead in May 2019 too. (Kantar)
Something the current Labour leadership can only dream of.
Ooh you don’t say Ed. Go big?
There's going to be a lot of this in next year or so. All the labour big beasts will be manoevring for pole position, and Ed clearly fancies another crack at it. He makes all the right noises but still short on detail. It's all very well talking about green new deal and 'properly financed' social care but it needs flesh on the bone as right now people just think it's a lofty ideal.
What green jobs will be generated? Who will they be available to? Where's the education and training coming from to get these jobs? He wants a social housing revolution, where will they be built? How much will they cost and who will be prioritsed? How's he going to control and prevent the ruthless instincts of the market? We're long past talking about what's wrong, we all know already, what we need to hear is how it's going to be fixed.
I'd like to hear all that detail as well... but then at the last two elections Labour were the only party with properly set out and costed plans in their manifesto... many people aren't moved by that kind of detail in the slightest... they want to read the front page of manifestos, at most, and then weigh up the vague lofty wiffle waffle of the two front benches, especially the leaders, and, unfortunately, the take of "journalists" about whether it's all credible or not.
Sorry, I still have no answers, only problems... I should shut up.
Gove found to have broke the law in case brought by Good Law Project. Come on Keir don't let us down.
Tony Benn and Michael Foot were both middle-class educated
Is this Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn, Viscount Stansgate you’re saying is middle class?
I think the horrible elephant in the room is that we just live in a country stuffed with intolerant racists. Way, way more than we thought. Boris’s Brexit escapade went better than he could dared to dream so he’s expanded his brief
So the Tory party has now said “do you know what? Being an intolerant racist is fine. We’re down with that. Vote for us! Show those bloody remainer snowflakes who’s boss! We’ve sent all those bloody foreigners home, so boo those BLM, knee-taking Marxist bastards with pride while you wave your flag!”
And so we are where we are. Who’s Labour leader is largely academic, unless it’s DazH who we’ve already established is worse than Hitler. He might appeal. He’s a vegetarian, just like Adolf. Makes you think....
He’s a vegetarian
A reborn religious vegan these days. I note the supposedly long time veggie Starmer was eating sea bass last night whilst out on the town with the Batley and Spen candidate. Is there anything he won’t water down to make himself less controversial?
Sea bass - in Batley?
Was it battered and served with a chef's smear of curry sauce?
No food is complete without a chef's smear.
Side of cheesy chips?
Kebab on the way home?
Is this Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn, Viscount Stansgate you’re saying is middle class?
No I said was. He's dead now.
I also said that Tony Blair is an arch-blairite Labour politician, which apparently was an issue for johnx2
It's a funny ol'world, innit?
I think the horrible elephant in the room is that we just live in a country stuffed with intolerant racists.
Well thank **** someone finally mentioned it binners. I kept thinking to myself "can this elephant in the room get any bigger....... when the **** is someone going to mention intolerant racists?"
I can't believe that we got to page 172 without anyone mentioning intolerant racists. Not the other sort.
Yeah, but, but, but...
We didn’t want to accept that they’re in the majority.
They are
It’s shit
Where does that leave the Labour Party?
We didn’t want to accept that they’re in the majority.
Not just that, we're stuffed with them.
"No thanks, I can't take another racist, I'm stuffed".
It's amazing how no one on here wanted to talk about racists. It was indeed the elephant in the room binners.
I think it was perhaps because everyone on here is simply too polite and didn't feel comfortable accusing people of being racist. Terribly British dontcha know.
I have always accepted racism is in the majority (in all countries) to some degree.
Seems to be in most peoples nature and part of being a tribal species. I think it was kept bottled up for 20 years in the UK as was seen as unacceptable so only mentioned in private but social media and populist politicians have opened it up over the last decade and people now feel it is more acceptable that it has been for a while.
You'd think the BNP would get more votes.
Even Ukip only got 10-12% didn't they?
I also said that Tony Blair is an arch-blairite Labour politician, which apparently was an issue for johnx2
Tautology is always an issue for me. Capitalising Blair but not Blairite I can more or less overlook.
And so we are where we are. Who’s Labour leader is largely academic
I see we've transitioned from "everything is Corbyn's fault" to "there's nothing anyone can do".
Both can be true if the mess left from his stint as leader is too big to fix in one election cycle.
We do need to remember that Corbyn also inherited "a mess".
“there’s nothing anyone can do”
That's Starmer entire MO isn't it? Expect to see it on the side of a bus very soon. And people wonder why his poll ratings are plummeting.
You’d think the BNP would get more votes.
Even Ukip only got 10-12% didn’t they?
Not really, which is why I said "racism is in the majority (in all countries) to some degree"
Only the racists who put it above all else would vote BNP or UKIP. That doesn't mean that people who vote Labour or Tory are not racist to some degree, however small.
I see we’ve transitioned from “everything is Corbyn’s fault” to “there’s nothing anyone can do”.
I don't think their is anything anyone can do at the moment, especially looking at who could technically be Labour leader, i.e. a current MP.
Why vote BNP when the Tories make such a good show of making "others" feel unwelcome here?
That’s Starmer entire MO isn’t it? Expect to see it on the side of a bus very soon. And people wonder why his poll ratings are plummeting.
Quite. We'll not know if there's something to be done unless he decides to saddle up. I'm not holding my breath.
After the Batley and Spen by-election could be make or break for Starmer.
But there will be an even more useless to-the-right option if he does step down, that I'm sure.
I don’t think their is anything anyone can do at the moment
Do you struggle to get out of bed in the morning? This is just defeatist nonsense. There's tons that can be done, but it needs someone - anyone - with some energy and motivation to do it. As I've said many times, not only does Starmer lack that energy, I strongly suspect he has no interest in doing anything because he's focused on internal matters rather than opposing the tories.
I don’t think their is anything anyone can do at the moment, especially looking at who could technically be Labour leader, i.e. a current MP.
Certainly a challenge, but things do change quickly in politics and there's always something brewing.
And Starmer for my money was never a good choice. (You can check my thoughts from ages ago.) Some people thought he was. Didn't make it so.
However I didn't think he would be this awful, and frankly this incompetent.
Do you struggle to get out of bed in the morning? This is just defeatist nonsense.
Yep. It's like saying my choice hasn't worked out so there can't possibly be another solution.
But there will be an even more useless to-the-right option
Almost certainly Rachel Reeves. There's not been a more tory labour MP in a senior position since Blair. It'll probably be a 3-way fight between her, Rayner and Miliband, with Lewis as the token lefty. Jess Philips' rampant ego will probably stick it's oar in too, with the same success as last time.
Certainly a challenge, but things do change quickly in politics and there’s always something brewing.
Who then Rone? If he goes now, who steps forward to take on the challenge...?
There’s not been a more tory labour MP in a senior position since Blair.
"Tory", in what way? Can we not get to the point where Labour people we don't align with aren't branded "tories"? What is that lazy shorthand for in this case? Pushing for more private company involvement in providing public services?
Rayner. Unless Burnham is willing to give up his mayorship, she's the only one who can fight the culture war.
She's put herself in a great position to be favourite (and I think she is). I think she'd get a short bounce, due to coming across as more passionate, straight talking, and "fresh" than Starmer (who isn't?!). Don't see it leading to anything other than a big tory lead by the next election though. She'd be taken apart after a very shot welcoming period of favourable talking up from all "sides".
Don’t see it leading to anything other than a big tory lead
They already have a big lead so there's nothing to lose. She'll appeal to both the northern working classes and the metropolitan lefties. The posh chattering classes will hate her due to outright snobbery, but it's not them the labour party needs to win over. TBH I'd like to see her as leader just so she can lose her temper at PMQs and call Boris a c***. 😄
I’d like to see her as leader just so she can lose her temper at PMQs and call Boris a c***.
Yes please!!! 😆
Are we doing obituaries for Starmer's career as Leader of Opposition then? I thought it was customary to allow at least one catastrophic election defeat first.
Are we doing obituaries for Starmer’s career as Leader of Opposition then?
He should be in the green party TBH, given the sterling job he's doing at increasing their support.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1403303642845827078?s=20
Why vote BNP when the Tories make such a good show of making “others” feel unwelcome here?
Because the Tory Cabinet is "stuffed" with Black and Asian Cabinet Ministers.
If you want to equate the Tory Party with a far-right neo-nazi party then you are either a political illiterate, an idiot, or someone who's taking the piss.
Still, you won't be the first on here to make that ridiculous comparison. That's the problem with an echo chamber which has driven out political diversity, unchecked those that remain make ever more fantastic and ridiculous assertions.
If you want to equate the Tory Party with a far-right neo-nazi party then you are either a political illiterate, an idiot
The bar isn't set very high for nazi comparison in this place. Not that I like to go on about it ( 😂 ) but it wasn't long ago I was called a nazi appeaser/sympathiser for saying we should probably respect the brexit referendum result.
It is very much the equivalent of Trump supporters claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a communist.
Somewhere a Trump supporter is probably asking " why vote communist when you can vote for Joe Biden?"
The bar isn’t set very high for nazi comparison in this place. Not that I like to go on about it ( 😂 ) but it wasn’t long ago I was called a nazi appeaser/sympathiser for saying we should probably respect the brexit referendum result.
And I was accused as being 'anti-Semitic' for daring to suggest that Starmer ceded to his (corporate, non-culturally specific) 'puppeteers'. People will throw slurs around when there is a counter-argument to their own, that they cannot effectively reply to. Paucity of argument leads to such behaviour. Which is why the Labour right could only throw such smears and slander at Corbyn; they had no real effective argument against any of his actual policies, this much is painfully apparent.
“Tory”, in what way? Can we not get to the point where Labour people we don’t align with aren’t branded “tories”? What is that lazy shorthand for in this case? Pushing for more private company involvement in providing public services?
Well, basically pushing for pretty much the same kind of policies and political ideologies as held by many in the Conservative party, at a guess. So yes, that would be stuff like privatising public services, making education only accessible to those with money, not paying attention to worker's unions, not heeding the needs of working people, especially the more vulnerable members of society, and voting for wars with nations that aren't threatening us at all, under a pretext of lies and deceit, in order to secure oil and weapons sales revenues.
an idiot
I didn't make the claim that you put in your strawman, so I'll assume that insult was aimed at someone else.
Paucity of argument leads to such behaviour.
Oh, FFS. There was too much making of the argument, not too little. Too much explaining what shouldn't have needed explaining. I should have raised my concerns and then just told you to get knotted as you kept digging deeper. Just leave it.
And I was accused as being ‘anti-Semitic’ for daring to suggest that Starmer ceded to his (corporate, non-culturally specific) ‘puppeteers’.
My recollection is that you used a term that is used by some people to invoke an anti-semitic trope. Which isn't quite the same thing.
My recollection is that you used a term that is used by some people to invoke an anti-semitic trope. Which isn’t quite the same thing.
Well, someone imagined that I did, yet when it was clarified that I didn't, persisted with the insinuations. So I'll just see that as an 'accusation', because that's what it is.
Just leave it.
I did try, but well, you just couldn't let it lie, could you? I have no problem with you arguing against my point of view; I won't have you or anyone insinuating or accusing me of something so abhorrent. As for 'digging deeper' the only people doing that is you and Kerley. When all you had to do was acknowledge your mistake, apologise, and move on. And we'd all live happily ever after. But hey. We are where we are.
I have no idea of the cultures/religious beliefs those who donated such large sums to Labour under Starmer. But the fact they donated significantly more in just one year alone, than Corbyn got in 5, suggests Starmer has a vested interest in courting those with wealth. I'm going out a limb here, but I'd hazard a guess that Lord Waheed Ali possibly isn't Jewish...
Labour right could only throw such smears and slander at Corbyn
It's the new McCarthy style witch-hunt, except instead of accusing everyone you don't agree with of being communist you accuse them of being racist.
Everyone is assumed to be racist unless they prove otherwise. Obviously you don't accept any proof they provide and you just keep repeating the allegation.
According to stw the ponderance of racism in the UK grows with every new day. The latest breaking news suggests that we are now stuffed with racists. Presumably if this thread is allowed to run its course we will eventually reach a point where everyone in the UK is a racist.
I did try, but well, you just couldn’t let it lie, could you?
YOU keep bringing it up. And not just in this thread. Just leave me alone! You managed to shoehorn it into a Pride thread. I mean… what the…!?!
Funny isn't it that so little has happened this week in the world of Starmer that we've resorted to discussing discussions we had only a couple of weeks ago. It pretty much says all we need to know about his leadership. Anyone for another round of Rose and Crown-gate? 😄
Well, someone imagined that I did, yet when it was clarified that I didn’t, persisted with the insinuations. So I’ll just see that as an ‘accusation’, because that’s what it is.
Your repeated attempts at playing the victim aren't very convincing.
Anyone for another round of Rose and Crown-gate?
Don’t go there, man. It’s like ‘Nam’ on that bowling green
YOU keep bringing it up. And not just in this thread. Just leave me alone! You managed to shoehorn it into a Pride thread. I mean… what the…!?!
YOU keep persisting with the insinuation. All you have to do, is accept your mistake, apologise to me, and we can all move on. Very simple. And you'd gain more respect in the process. What's not to like?
Your repeated attempts at playing the victim aren’t very convincing.
I'm not a victim. If people are too bone-headed to admit they were wrong, then what can I do? And please explain why I need to 'convince' you of anything? If you can't see the facts in front of you, again, what can I do? Maybe it's easier to hide inside an imagined scenario, than admit the truth.
I had requested that the moderators of this forum deal with posts I found personally offensive. As no action seems to have been taken, I'll deal with it on here. I have every right to answer false accusations and insinuations against me. More than happy to discuss the nuances involved in how people can have differing perceptions of things, but so far, no-one has done so. So I'll just consider this the usual 'smear those you disagree with' bullshit, and file it under 'cowardice'. Because that's what it is.
Anyone who does what to discuss this further, can PM me. Happy to do that as well. Anyway; git Shabbos und gei gezunt.
I’m not a victim. If people are too bone-headed to admit they were wrong, then what can I do? And please explain why I need to ‘convince’ you of anything? If you can’t see the facts in front of you, again, what can I do? Maybe it’s easier to hide inside an imagined scenario, than admit the truth.
If you keep saying the same thing on a public forum, then it would seem fairly obvious that you are trying to convince others of your point of view.
As for the rest of it, you are presenting your opinion as fact. It isn't.
In my opinion, you are wrong for the reasons already set out, so it's a pity that you continue to be so "bone-headed", as you put it.
Presumably if this thread is allowed to run its course we will eventually reach a point where everyone in the UK is a racist.
Except Jeremy
Presumably Bridges wouldn't need to travel to find racists in the pub to shout at in that scenario
Don’t go there, man.
If the Rose and Crown wasn't such a long drive I would be there this evening.
I yearn to sit transfixed listening to a wise elderly regular recall the Strange Tale of the Ramsbottom Flouncer.
Starmer speaks! Prepare for government!
Yeah but in keeping with this new trend of accusing those whose politics you don't agree with of being racist, I would like to point out that Keir Starmer is in fact a racist :