Agree with Kelvin. If Labour want to win the election, they've got to make the Tories seem untrustworthy with the nations finances. This book you've read Daz is niche, and will not pass the common sense test with the electorate.
They need to convince the electorate that the Tories are wasting money, having a policy that says that money can never run out will not help this!
I do think Labour should run with policies of spending. Bricks and mortar infrastructure spending, flood defences, hospitals, schools, rail, roads, cycling etc etc contrasted with the Tories wasteful spunking on mates, test and trace, PWC advisors on £1000 a day etc etc
having a policy that says that money can never run out will not help this!
It's not having a policy, it's how it already works. We don't need a policy to confirm how fiat money and government finances work, we need honesty from the people who oversee these systems and education to help the public understand them. Once they do we'll be in a position to produce and enact better policy based on facts, rather than self-destructive myths.
Decent PMQs for Starmer, I thought. Blackford's great. 🙂
Quite frankly I despise the british state and everything it represents.
why politics then? You can possibly want anything to do with making peoples lives better if you hate them.
You seem to be forgetting, 'There's no such thing as magic money trees, idiot! By the way, we're giving our good friend Arlene a billion pounds. We just found it. Amazing, eh?'
People believe what the Tories tell them, for some reason. The Tories have a knack of simplifying things for voters to the point that what they are saying is complete bollocks. But it's plausible bollocks if you don't think about it for more than a second.
You're right about your economic theories but, in the same way that Labour will never be able to make the case to the voters for FoM, they'll never be able to make their magic money tree case to the voters either. You are asking people to accept that money isn't actually a real thing. That's a concept that takes more than a second to grasp.
It’s not having a policy, it’s how it already works.
I called it "fringe politics" rather than "fringe economics" for a reason.
Most voters really don't understand economics, and don't want to.
You can possibly want anything to do with making peoples lives better if you hate them.
I don't hate the people, I hate the administrative structures and the politicians and officials who use them for the inequiitable benefit of a few people at the top. The state is an abstract administrative construct, and does not equate to all the people it governs.
The state is an abstract administrative construct, and does not equate to all the people it governs.
What on earth have you been reading? Thats utter twoddle! Theres nothing remotely abstract about the state. Its decisions and actions have immediate real world impact on us all, no matter who you are.
It's actually the most un-abstract thing there is, short of someone punching you in the face.
The economics that you're advocating would be regarded as abstract by about 90% of the population, who would just say "he's talking about a magic money tree, isn't he?"
What on earth have you been reading?
Pretty much any book on political or economic theory, and I've read an awful lot of them from obscure anarchist theory to neoliberal Ayn Rand type stuff. The nation state is not some monolithic thing which has always existed, and it won't continue in it's current form. It only exists because humans invented it, and it's existence only continues because people either want it, or don't currently have the power to remove it. There are alternatives however, and if you're actually interested then this is a good place to start..
he’s talking about a magic money tree, isn’t he?
The problem is that Labour never seem to point out that the Tories have increased the use of "magic money tree" economic policies whilst saying there is no money to spend. Austerity had more than doubled the national debt even pre COVID. Why is that not shouted whenever BoJo attacks Starmer for wanting to spend?
I don't think anyone here is going to argue that the only reason money and government exist is because we all agree they exist. However, convincing the majority of the voting population of that is a completely different matter.
I still don't understand why you think explaining FoM to the population is a fool's errand but convincing them money isn't real is a winning election strategy?
Daz - when we can meet up again I want you to come over, we'll nip out for a ride then finish at the pub where we can sit at the bar and you can explain to the regulars about government and money being abstract constructs
I'll film it 😀
Decent PMQs for Starmer, I thought.
It usually is.
Good to see the speaker pulling Johnson up and telling him to at least keep somewhere in the remote region of what Starmers question was actually about
but convincing them money isn’t real
Now I'm really confused, because I've never said money (or the state) isn't real. Either you don't understand or you're making shit up. Whichever is the case I'd encourage you to do more thinking 😉
you can explain to the locals about government and money being abstract constructs
You'd be surprised actually. Most people have no interest or understanding of politics or economics and live their lives completely separated from them, so when someone comes along and questions what the point is in these things they're more inclined to agree than disagree.
Good to see the speaker pulling Johnson up and telling him to at least keep somewhere in the remote region of what Starmers question was actually about
People who think a public enquiry will change anything are the same people who need tissues when watching Starmer at PMQs.
Thanks for your contribution comrade. As ever
Binners you might want to give this a read too. I'd be interested in which bits you disagree with. 🙂
http://www.tangledwilderness.org/life-without-law/
Thanks for your contribution comrade. As ever
Hey, no worries! Just glad you can find some suitable material for one off the wrist.
Now I’m really confused, because I’ve never said money (or the state) isn’t real.
So am I. Maybe it's because we have different definitions of 'abstract construct'.
To me it means that it only exists because we all agree it exists. With something that we can arbitrarily change at will, like money and government, to me that is something that is not real since it obeys no laws other than the laws we construct for it.
What's your definition?
I'll give it a read.
Daz, Mate, I don't agree with pretty much all of what you're advocating. Always have.
What I'm saying is that you've more chance of Newcastle doing the treble than convincing your average bloke in the street to vote for it.
Daz, Mate, I don’t agree with pretty much all of what you’re advocating. Always have.
I assume you meant disagree (or maybe not, it's impossible to tell on here).
It's funny how some of the fiercest arguments tend to be between people who fundamentally agree on everything 🙂
We've mentioned it before but pre-lockdown, me and Daz go out riding together all the time, and have been doing for years. We always finish at the pub for a few beers. At no point over all those years has it ever crossed either of our minds to discuss politics. Why would we? 😀
It’s funny how some of the fiercest arguments tend to be between people who fundamentally agree on everything
Got bollox all else to do. It's not an accident that my posting volume has gone through the roof this past year, and agreeing with people results in very boring conversations 🙂
And as for politics, I am aware that a lot of the stuff I say on here is not exactly mainstream. A product of reading too many obscure books from the late 19th century (a very interesting period of history!) in my 20s. I would maintain though that my thinking about politics, whilst not exactly original, is just a natural extension of the way most people live their everyday lives, they just don't realise that things they take for granted like self-determination, mutual aid and solidarity can be scaled up massively.
we need honesty from the people who oversee these systems and education to help the public understand them. Once they do we’ll be in a position to produce and enact better policy based on facts, rather than self-destructive myths.
I'd like to live in a World like this, but the 'self-destructive myths' have been impressed upon generation after generation of citizens, like stuff such as racism and sexism, will take a long time to de-program the mindset. And since I'm not going to be Prime Minister anytime soon, I can say what I like about large parts of the population of this country...they are ignorant and stupid.
They continue to be lead down the yellow brick road, without realising they are still in f*****g Kansas.
I can say what I like about large parts of the population of this country…they are ignorant and stupid.
That is a fact. Getting a party into power relies on knowing how to get them to vote for you. Brexit made it easy as Brexit was favoured by the ignorant and stupid so be interesting to see what extremely dumbed down thing is used next time.
Being good in PMQs, or explaining that money isn't real is definitely NOT going to be helping with these people.
I’d like to live in a World like this, but the ‘self-destructive myths’ have been impressed upon generation after generation of citizens, like stuff such as racism and sexism, will take a long time to de-program the mindset.
But these are perfect examples of the progress that can be made in changing things. There's been nothing short of a revolution in our attitudes towards racism, sexism, homophobia, trans rights etc in Britain. It is generational, but 10, 20 or 30 years is not a long time, and the pace of change is accelerating thanks to technology and social media. Dismissing these things because they take too long is not an excuse to not do them, and the sooner we do, the better off we'll be in future.
People believe what the Tories tell them, for some reason.
The media has a lot to do with it.
A classic example is Cameron. After the Scottish and AV referendum he got it into his head that he was truly the political and PR genius that he was being made out to be.
So he took the opportunity to slap down the idiots in his party regarding the EU but found that when he disagreed with press barons he wasnt quite as talented as he thought he was.
The looking smart/veterans at Remembrance day is another good example. Notice how the fact Johnson turned up looking like a hung over sack of shit who couldnt even manage to follow a basic cue got barely a headline and so didnt get all the people ranting and raving.
People believe what the Tories tell them, for some reason.
This subject of control was covered in the latest YouTube video by After Skool
Notice how the fact Johnson turned up looking like a hung over sack of shit who couldnt even manage to follow a basic cue got barely a headline and so didnt get all the people ranting and raving.
That was depressing, wasn’t it. But that lack of evenhandedness is going to get worse over the next few years, and Labour need to act as if that is baked into our system come the next election, not complain about it. The cards are stacked.
The cards are stacked.
Yes but thats the problem with pretending the current "issues" are actually issues. They arent they are simply the attack line for the press which useful idiots regurgitate and then people parrot.
They need to figure out how to counter the press as opposed to dealing with the lies the press spin since otherwise they will always be one step behind and pandering to some of the current lies could take us somewhere very unpleasant.
Counter the press? Give them less fuel…
The public have learned in 2020 that MMT is very much on their doorstep.
It's not fringe, it's fundamental to our actual macro-economic policy. It's how the system works and if you all want to stand by and sign off on austerity 2 then keep calling things fringe.
Clive Lewis gets it if that helps.
Counter the press?
Funny isn't it because up until til the 2017 election labour did quite a good job of bypassing the tory press and managed to cut through to a huge range of voters. The tragic thing is that unencumbered with the hysterical nonsense Corbyn had to deal with, Starmer could do the same and be successful if only he'd take the leap of faith and unshackle himself from his establishment backers. But instead of an inspiring and transformative policy agenda, we get flag waving and dressing smartly.
sign off on austerity 2
Who said that?
Funny isn’t it because up until til the 2017 election labour did quite a good job of bypassing the tory press and managed to cut through to a huge range of voters.
But not enough.
But not enough.
No,but not far off despite a hostile media, unpopular leader and divided party. Imagine what they could achieve with some discipline and less baggage.
Clive Lewis on fake patriotism: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/03/labour-red-wall-voters-patriotism-keir-starmer
But not enough.
So you think the answer is for labour to prostrate themselves before Murdoch and the Barclay brothers?
I agree with Lewis (I often do), life and identity is complex… but Labour need to be seen to “back Britain” to win over people unable to grasp that complexity. They vote. They don’t want nuance or complexity. Labour policy has to deal with all that complexity (including, and this is something else I agree with Lewis on, embracing those who move across borders) but their headline messaging has to, at all points in the next few years, be positively British. Look, I would happily swap my passport and flag to one of 20 other nations… I don’t personally give a damn about being British, but I live here, and want the Tories out.
As for the papers (and TV and radio), you can’t just bypass them and speak to the converted, you have to engage, no matter who on your own ‘side’ it enrages. And, yes, that includes offering exclusives and content to right wing rags if that means their readers feel you are engaging with them, and want to be in government to help them, not just concentrate on interests they think are the preserve of lefties and ‘others’.
I'm going to contradict myself to cover Tory decision making (and Sunak/Boris flip-flops) but there's a Times article talking up Tory post-covid spending plans for the next 5-10 years (as they know without it the country is to the dogs).
If they do choose this path (over Austerity 2) Labour are utterly doomed for years as they missed the opportunity to capitalise on talking up recovery/spending whilst wasting time on flags, schools opening, sacking people and neo-classical economic prudence bollocks.
Let's see what the March statement brings.
The Tories are the world masters are grand spending announcements, for none of the money ever to materialise.
Ask anyone in the north of England who used to travel into the office (when we used to do that) on a 40 year old train on Victorian lines.
The Tories promised billions in investment in ‘Northern Powerhouse’ public transport infrastructure. The second they were elected, they pulled the lot!
Then they did exactly the same again the next time around
Boris has already started pulling any funding already after all his levelling up bullshit
They might be making vague noises about spending. They’ve no intention whatsoever of delivering it
Boris will spend billions on a footbridge to the moon or something instead. On top of the £250 billion that the HS2 white elephant will end up costing so that rich Londoners can buy cheaper second homes in the more picturesque parts of the north
The reality of Borises promised ‘levelling up’
A 40% cut to core funding
Promise the world. Deliver **** all!
I totally agree.
We'll be told they are spending their way out of the BreVid shit storm whilst simultaneously further undercutting the NHS, social services and anything else they haven't already shaved to the bone.
All the time telling us we've never had it so good.
TBF the ploy of re-pledging money that had already been pledged, and pretending it was actually 'new' money was one of Campbell's Faustian tricks from the Blair era, though I'd be surprised if it didn't have a longer pedigree.
Things have changed, and the Labour Party need to get a grip on it now. There is an interesting chain of tweets, that seem to incorporate about 80% of meme world now, that vocalises this better than i can, but the bottom line of it is that the time for incremental change was 40 years ago.
ie if we had de-carbonised industry/raised minimum wage/increased sustainable energy/installed digital infrastructure etc incrementally over the last 40 years, we would already be where we need to be.
That we didn't is why we are not. And more importantly, is why we now need, dare i say it, a Great Leap Forward. But hopefully not quite like that.
Incremental change is no longer an option, only something more bold will wash.
Things... Can Only Get Bitter...
Sorry, just thinking Boris & Co need a theme song like Blair & Brown had.
