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As Labour leader how can you combat these levels of stupid?
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1392181951147163654
You can talk about revolution all you like.
Except no one is talking about revolution. The only people who do are those like yourself who want to paint a charicature of anyone to the left of Nick Clegg.
Not a revolution? You're talking about establishing a party that rejects the present economic model completely in favour of your as-yet-undefined one
To most people that's a revolution
Most people don’t feel like that at all, and so aren’t responsive to ever-so-earnest Corbynite style hectoring, labelling them as victims
Where is the evidence for this? It seems something more like woke which is an attack line but when asked for evidence it just gets regurgitated again.
Woke, incidentally, being a good example of the flaw in the argument about being cast as victims since for the rabid right the entire "woke" is an attempt to portray the left as oppressors victimising the poor helpless right wing.
Where is the evidence for this?
The present enormous Tory majority?
England is a conservative country. To appeal to conservative voting people you need to sell them the idea of something similar to that but somehow better. Radical change is not that.
The present enormous Tory majority?
Ah so no evidence for your specific claims then.
It is fascinating just how reliably you regurgitate whatever attack lines the tories trot out.
You’re talking about establishing a party that rejects the present economic model completely in favour of your as-yet-undefined one
1. Electorial Reform
2. Climate Change
3. Devolution
I never even mentioned economics!
England is a conservative country.
On average, but not universally.
lefties telling them that they apparently need liberating from their capitalist oppressors.
Er what?
For example, lets say that the current LP split into 4 other parties – Left, Centre left, centre right, right
They'd be in each quarter of the political compass since there is more than one axis. Going by recent leaders you'd have something like Corbyn (socialist left), Cameron (progressive right), Farage (socially conservative right) and Milliband (progressive centre-left).
What about getting rid of the wealthy elite left wingers?
On one side you have the billionaire super rich oligarchs who control the media and most of the economy, on the other you have a tiny few lefties who've inherited a bit of money or are on 6 figure salaries with a couple of properties. And you're worried about the lefty elitists???
It is fascinating just how reliably you regurgitate whatever attack lines the tories trot out.
I was merely discussing an issue that was raised by a someone who was giving his own reasons, which he shares with many of his friends and acquaintances, why someone assumed to be a traditional labour voter opts for the Tory's instead.
And I know where he's coming from. I find a lot on 'the left' incredibly patronising, sanctimonious and pious. Its really off-putting to a lot of voters.
And reading her article in the Guardian, its an opinion shared by Angela Raynor
Angela Rayner vows to reconnect Labour with working class voters
“For too long we have given off an air of talking down to people and telling people what they need or even what they should want or what they should think.”
Yes, you absolutely have! That was Corbynism, with its po-faced and utterly joyless hectoring tone, summed up in one sentence, and an attitude amply demonstrated in spades on this thread
England isHumans are a conservativecountryspecies. To appeal to conservative voting people you need to sell them the idea of something similar to that but somehow better. Radical change is not that.
Fixed, mostly.
Obviously there have been a few uprisings and rebellions here and there, but they do seem to be the exception, and I'm not sure many of them have replaced the previous boss with much of a different boss (I am not a historian, feel free to fill in some examples where the new boss was really, really, different).
1. Electorial Reform
2. Climate Change
3. DevolutionI never even mentioned economics!
How close to the green manifesto is that?
I find a lot on ‘the left’ incredibly patronising, sanctimonious and pious. Its really off-putting to a lot of voters.
Did you manage to keep a straight face while you were typing that? I mean, of all the people to accuse others of being patronising...
On one side you have the billionaire super rich oligarchs who control the media and most of the economy, on the other you have a tiny few lefties who’ve inherited a bit of money or are on 6 figure salaries with a couple of properties. And you’re worried about the lefty elitists???
Well, quite. It's true that there are lefties who earn enough to buy a woodburner, pizza oven, Orange 5, espresso machine AND a shiny EV. They'd fit in well here.
But it's idiotic to pretend that political power and influence is not highly asymmetric.
That was Corbynism summed up in one sentence
No it's not. Listen to anything Corbyn says and you'll hear him talking about the interests of people in working class communities and how they suffer at the hands of unaccountable employers and corporations. Corbyn was never the one talking down, it was the blairites in their designer suits with their Oxford degrees, patronisingly talking about 'aspiration' and 'narratives' like they were in a meeting of PR executives. You've got this entirely the wrong way round.
You can talk about revolution all you like. People just aren’t buying it.
I'm confused now. I thought that today the reason the Labour Party did badly in the elections last Thursday was because of the vaccine rollout. Now it's because of all this talk about revolution?
Which excuse are we using today binners? Vaccine rollout? Talk of revolution?
Today is Wednesday binners, I don't if that helps.
Fixed, mostly.
Sorry, I should have used Conservative rather than conservative, as in voting for the Conservative party rather than conservative in nature. If we had always had a Labour government then a conservative person would just keep that.
I’m confused now. I thought that today the reason the Labour Party did badly in the elections last Thursday was because of the vaccine rollout. Now it’s because of all this talk about revolution?
Two sides of the same coin - nothing to do with Keir Starmer.
Listen to anything Corbyn says and you’ll hear him talking about the interests of people in working class communities and how they suffer at the hands of unaccountable employers and corporations.
Or as Angela Rayner put it:
“For too long we have given off an air of talking down to people and telling people what they need or even what they should want or what they should think.”
It may be well-intentioned but it doesn't come across well. It comes across as telling people whats best for them. To be fair Blair and co were equally as guilty of it, just in a different way
Which excuse are we using today binners? Vaccine rollout? Talk of revolution?
I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive.
There are many, many more reasons too. Absolutely loads. Thats the problem
I wasn’t aware they were mutually exclusive.
Ah I see. All this talk about revolution plus the vaccine rollout is why Labour did badly last Thursday.
Nothing to do with the Labour Leader.
It may be well-intentioned but it doesn’t come across well.
That's the nature of representative democracy and why it doesn't work, Again I'm glad you're coming round to my way of thinking. What we need is decision making from the bottom up rather than politicians pretending they know what's best for the people they represent. I'll make an anarchist out of you yet. 🙂
It's interesting how now you attach so little importance to who the Leader of the Labour Party is binners.
I could have sworn that there was a time when you were obsessed with the Issue.
Plenty to do with the labour leader. Where have I said it isn't? I'm one of the ones who voted for Starmer, hoping that he'd deliver and who you can now class as pretty bloody disappointed, to say the least
He's one of a multitude of reasons that seem to be combining to deliver a perfect storm for Labour.
It's difficult to see where the labour party goes from here. I've not heard anyone articulate a coherent direction. Has anyone even tried?
From the Guardian article I posted above, Angela Rayner seems to be one of the few who at least seem to understand the scale of the problem, which is probably why he tried to sack her. He clearly doesn't like people telling him what he doesn't want to hear
Well it's interesting that there's now a "multitude of reasons".
I remember a time when there was only one reason. Corbyn
Of course theres a multitude of reasons. Especially after a year as insane as the one we've just been through. Theres never just one reason for something.
Are you honestly suggesting that the vaccine rollout isn't a hugely significant part of the Tory's present popularity. Of course it is!
But Corbyn was an enormous problem as he was electorally repellent to a massive chunk of the electorate (even to most of his own MP's). Starmer is having to deal with inheriting the utter shambles that you get when you've had someone completely clueless and incompetent in charge for 5 years, having surrounded himself with people equally as inept (Richard Burgon as a minister? Seriously?).
I note Dianne Abbott has re-emerged of late, all over the media, reminding everyone why they didn't vote labour at the last election
I remember a time when there was only one reason. Corbyn
Not here. Especially if you are referring to Binners. He has placed a share of the blame squarely at the feet of many other Labour politicans, past and present, many times, over the years.
Yes, you absolutely have! That was Corbynism, with its po-faced and utterly joyless hectoring tone, summed up in one sentence, and an attitude amply demonstrated in spades on this thread
The luxury left. Those who have been either little or completely unaffected by conservative policy over the decades, there are a few of them on this thread.
Someone mentioned that prick Norcott, unfortunately what he said was true, some working class/working class tories don't like the left talking down to them, the tories under cameron and osbourne exploited this by driving a wedge between those "hard working" class who could potentially vote tory, and those working class who genuinely need state help. Now that division exists, the state help class are being persecuted.
But I digress, because once again certain people here are going around in circles, there is no time for this infighting.
The actual threat has made itself clear: the "Conservatives" with their allies are going to go all out to eliminate all credible opposition.
They are in the process of destroying the justice system to prevent any legal challenges to them. They are bringing in laws to prevent dissent.
The stole a lot of Labour policy to appeal to those former Labour voters
They are in the process of wiping out the parliamentary Labour party
They will change the voting system to ensure any future Mayors are of the blue variety
They will gerrymander the election boundaries
With an 81 seat majority easily handed to them, this is just the start. Anyone think there will be an election in the Autumn? Timed just before the furlough and Vaccine bounce ends.
Their allies, well with the newspapers, it is a diminishing media, but it's influence is key in certain area's or their billionaire owners wouldn't be keeping them on life support.
UKIP/Vote leave, who are now a large part of the tory party, its moderates have gone from the party, and while the fiscal torys remain, there will no doubt be infighting between them and the vote leave spend, spend, spend brigade, but don't count on that come election time they are all self-interested bast**ds who will pull together in pursuit of the one thing that actually does matter: The power of being in Government.
Social media, or Facebook in particular. Don't think that Cambridge Analytica and aggregate IQ aren't around in another form. That sort of power to control people is far to valuable for the vote leave brigade infesting the tory party to ever let go of.
We are heading for a one party state, in Russian form. All the traits are there, the corruption, cronyism, the mechanisms to keep people believing that its us against the world, or should I say the EU.
And that's why there is no more time for the infighting coming from the left right now. There is more at stake than the fight for the soul of the Labour party.
Hopefully it will dawn on you lot, but going on past performance it will dawn too late. So 2030 perhaps?
It will all have it's day when the market runs its course, and we are forced to take a different model.
Corbyn won't seem so extreme then.
In fact you would think people would know better given the fiscally left approach the Tories mostly took to the pandemic.
Also Starmer: we were sold the fact that the grown ups are in the room now. He's probably the worst leader Labour have had by a country mile in recent times.
He looks like he's been on the Scotch in interviews.
Are you honestly suggesting that the vaccine rollout isn’t a hugely significant part of the Tory’s present popularity. Of course it is!
Some of Labour's votes in the polls around that time moved to the Lib Dems and others not just to the Tories.
That's not just vaccine bounce.
Also not vaccine bounce.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1392087926922743808?s=19
He’s probably the worst leader Labour have had by a country mile in recent times.
I think he's got to lose a couple of general elections, one completely catastrophically before he can even begin to lay claim to that particular title.
By the looks of his present ratings, he'll be lucky to get the chance to lose one. If this was the Tory party the knives would be out already. In fact, I doubt he'd have made it to the end of the week.
But Grandad staggered on for over two years after he should have been gone, inflicting yet more damage on the party in the process. Why change now?
He has placed a share of the blame squarely at the feet of many other Labour politicans, past and present, many times, over the years.
Oh yes I definitely remember binners daily rants attacking the whole of the Labour Party to the point where people were asking him why he was a Labour Party member.
However as I understood it Labour only needed to get rid of Corbyn and everything would come out in the wash..... centrist utopia here we come, apparently.
Yes unsurprisingly it turns out that things aren't quite that simple. According to the latest yougov poll Starmer's approval ratings are now even lower than Corbyn's was at this point into the leadership.
And Labour did even worse last Thursday than it did under Corbyn. Except of course where voters had a vague idea what they were voting for.
It turns out that the "vote for us because you are a traditional Labour voter" strategy doesn't work anymore.
It's good to finally hear binners make vague critical comments concerning Starmer. But what I don't understand is why this vague critism didn't start until Labour's election humiliation.
My understanding from binners Book of Election Strategy was that only someone who was "utterly clueless" wouldn't know how to connect with Labour voters.
I'm guessing everyone in the Labour party is under strict instructions not to say anything critical about indiscriminate bombing by Israel, because that would be anti-Semitic right?
'There's good people on both sides'
Well, there are people killing innocents on both sides.
He looks like he’s been on the Scotch in interviews.
I've mentioned this a couple of times. He's clearly a massive drinker, and reminds me of Charles Kennedy. In fact I saw a twitter exchange at the weekend where someone supposedly 'in the know' said he drank like a fish, but doesn't drink beer. Not that it's a big deal I suppose, Johnson is also reputedly a massive alcoholic and May and Thatcher were big whiskey drinkers. Not sure about Tony Blair, I reckon he was more of a line of coke and champagne type along with Cameron and Osborne. Corbyn is a long time teetotaller, make of that what you will.
he drank like a fish, but doesn’t drink beer
I know someone who worked with Gordon Brown, before he was PM. That description fitted him perfectly.
In addition to Andy Burnhams speech after being re elected Mayor comes Rachel Reeves opening Queens Speech debate for labour.
It is not all doom and gloom.
https://labourlist.org/2021/05/full-text-rachel-reeves-delivers-first-speech-as-labours-shadow-chancellor/
That’s a good read. Was her delivery up to scratch? Will she get people listening?
OTOH, John Smith was a legendary drinker, and probably if he'd calmed that down a bit he'd have been PM instead of Blair, and a lot of things would have worked out different.
Well, there are people killing innocents on both sides.
A lot more on one side, as ever. And only one side that has the Labour leader and several cabinet ministers in a 'friends of....' group.
Funny that JC was pilloried for calling Hamas friends but join a lobbying group for the expansionist aggressor killing massively more people and it's fine.
Labour leader and several cabinet ministers in a ‘friends of….’ group.
The Israeli Labor Party needs all the friends it can get, things are getting more and more desperate for them. The two-state solution needs as much international support and pressure as possible, the proposal is currently like a flickering candle in the face of an oncoming sand storm. Netanyahu is destroying the region, he is a warmonger, he sees the lives of Palestinians as just something to consume to win elections and gain power, he uses illegal expansionist settlements and the cover of security to push people from their homes. There will be no lasting peace while he is in power, and no equal rights. Calling for a cease fire and a deescalation on both sides should not be taken as support for Netanyahu’s regime, his incitement to kill, or any of the countries army’s actions under his direction.
Isn't the two-state solution an invitation to ethnic cleansing and colonizing? If all citizens were to be treated equally, there'd be no need to create another 'independent' state to expel them into.
Starmer says both sides should 'de-escalate' (to restore the status quo ante).
There are many problems with the two-state solution, but it is a route away from the "status quo" that was negotiated and needs to be returned to. Starmer and Nandy have my support with their approach, but in reality, there's very little either can do.
Why are we even having this conversation on a thread about the Labour Leader?
What I don't get is when it became compulsory for labour politicians to comment on everything that happens in Israel?
Given that the Israeli's don't give a flying **** what anyone thinks, least of all the leader of the opposition in the UK, why bother? Given that it will have absolutely zero impact on anything?
You'd think that given everything thats happened in the party over the last few years, why not file it under 'subjects not to touch with a barge pole' and have done with it?
The Tories don't feel the need to comment on it. They must be laughing their tits off (again) as the labour party ties itself in knots again for no apparent reason
I would hope government ministers have commented, and in much the same manner as the opposition front bench. Netanyahu won't be listening to Raab much more than he'll listen to Nandy though... ie not at all. He'll have a deaf ear ready for Biden, never mind someone currently as irrelevant on the world stage as Starmer is right now.
Government ministers are all virtually invisible. They rarely comment on their own brief, let alone anything remotely controversial
A lesson to be learned there, perhaps?
Why are we even having this conversation on a thread about the Labour Leader?
Is it a bit uncomfortable for you?
What I don’t get is when it became compulsory for labour politicians to comment on everything that happens in Israel?
Because if you're the leader of a party that is supposed to stand against racism, oppression, bigotry, hate, injustice etc, then it's actually your job to condemn such, wherever you see it. Given the close links between Israel and the UK, particularly in the technology and weapons industries, it is actually important to stand against what is a fascistic apartheid regime. Because if you remain silent, you're complicit in the crimes of that state.
Given that the Israeli’s don’t give a flying **** what anyone thinks, least of all the leader of the opposition in the UK, why bother? Given that it will have absolutely zero impact on anything?
The Israeli regime gave enough of a 'flying ****' to do it's level best to undermine Corbyn, whom they saw as a potential threat to future trade and 'diplomatic' arrangements between the countries.
If trade and diplomatic links between Israel and the UK and much more so, the USA, were diminished in any way, this would have a massive effect on Israel's survival as the state it has become. Hence why it's in Israel's best interests, to keep those ties and strengthen them. Because without UK and US help, Israel wouldn't be able to bomb the **** out of innocent children. And before anyone whines on about Hamas etc; remind yourself which nation uses jet bombers, white phospohorus, poisoning water supplies, all sorts of forms of torture, detention without trial (often of children), and basically state sponsored murder and ethnic cleansing.
So, you still think UK politicians should turn a blind eye?
So, you still think UK politicians should turn a blind eye?
Who said they should?
The Tories don’t feel the need to comment on it.
Oops.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no10-slaps-down-tory-minister-24092863
You don't do your homework, do you?
Who said they should?
Binners, essentially.
Starmer and Nandy have been clear about what Britain should be doing right now. What more do you require from them? To "unfriend" their sister party in Israel? To denounce the two state solution, and instead... propose what? Should they not be asking for all the violence to end, and for everyone to return to the peace process?
Is it a bit uncomfortable for you?
Not even remotely. But thanks for doing your achingly predictable knee-jerk reaction and labelling me an ant-semite/racist, while you publicly polish your ideologically pure halo for us all once again.
So, you still think UK politicians should turn a blind eye?
Who said they should?
Binners, essentially.
I've said nothing of the sort. I've just pointed out that the labour party feels compelled to give a running commentary on Israel, when it achieves absolutely nothing. Its completely pointless as the present Israeli regime doesn't give a monkeys what any of them think. They'll carry on with their genocidal aggression regardless.
What it does do is reinforce the view formed under Corbyns leadership that the Labour party isn't actually a serious political party at all, but a protest group.
That link you posted about Zac Goldsmith actually proves my point. 'Number 10' has effectively told Tory MPs 'don't touch this subject with a barge pole'
Labour should do the same
The Israeli regime gave enough of a ‘flying ****’ to do it’s level best to undermine Corbyn
Well if we listen to the commentary from 'the left' bunker, apparently everybody and his uncle did that
To support binners I'd ask why we've moved on to Israel/Palestine when the discussion of senior politician's drinking habits was much more interesting. At least then we can't be accused of being anti-semites/nazis 🙂
I wonder if any of them like a decent sour IPA or imperial stout? Rayner's probably a Strongbow dark fruits type I reckon with a sneaky half bottle of vodka smuggled into the pub to top it up.
At least then we can’t be accused of being anti-semites/nazis 🙂
Well, you've still failed to explain your anti-Semitic comment about Mandelson, so I can see why you'd prefer the discussion to move away from such issues. It's a bit awkward, isn't it?
I’ve said nothing of the sort.
Except:
You’d think that given everything thats happened in the party over the last few years, why not file it under ‘subjects not to touch with a barge pole’ and have done with it?
Oh dear. Your own post, too. That's embarrassing.
I wonder if any of them like a decent sour IPA
Wise of them to keep it secret if they do. Only for fruitloops and posers.
I'm having a gose tonight, for sure.
Only for fruitloops and posers.
Got one of these for the weekend. Guilty as charged!
I always picture Mandleson with an elaborate cocktail of some sort
Pfff my highly tongue in cheek comment about Mandelson has been deleted. Total sense of humour failure somewhere. 🙄
Was it seen as promoting drinking gin instead of proper beer? That is crossing a line.
Was it seen as promoting drinking gin instead of proper beer?
I think it might be that discussion of the drinking habits of jewish homosexuals is against forum policy?
Does that label say 9.5%...bloody hells bells!
Does that label say 9.5%
It does. Haven't tried it yet, will report back tomorrow evening. Would Peter Mandelson drink it though? Or is asking the question too anti-semitic for the likes of Bridges? 😏
Daz laughs in the face of 9.5%
Then he goes outside and shouts at buses
Given that the Israeli’s don’t give a flying **** what anyone thinks, least of all the leader of the opposition in the UK, why bother? Given that it will have absolutely zero impact on anything?
You couldn't be more wrong.
Obviously I'm using the 'couldn't be more wrong' comment very loosely binners. Your impressive ability to be wrong about stuff makes it very difficult to figure out when you could be more wrong.
Btw binners I think it's your picture posting talent which keeps me coming back to this thread. I hate reading dull stuff without any pictures.
Pfff my highly tongue in cheek comment about Mandelson has been deleted. Total sense of humour failure somewhere.
Maybe it's just because your idea of 'humour' isn't the same as other people's. YOU might have thought it was funny, I didn't. I found it very offensive. That's why I reported it. Good to see it's been removed. Quite why you thought it appropriate to refer to Mandelson's cultural heritage, I have no idea. It's clear you are ignorant about real anti-Semitism though. I don't personally believe you to be genuinely hateful, just thoughtless. Perhaps take the time to enlighten yourself a bit better, so you don't make the same mistakes in future.
I think it might be that discussion of the drinking habits of jewish homosexuals is against forum policy?
Would Peter Mandelson drink it though? Or is asking the question too anti-semitic for the likes of Bridges?
Ok, so you're now attempting to laugh it off, which is understandable, as you've been somewhat embarrassed. But move on now. You can rise above this nonsense.
I think I'd be on the floor. One of the things to "enjoy" in Morzine was the Mutzig at Bar Robinson. Speaking to the v grumpy owner there once, he told me it could be anything between 8-12% depending on a bunch of brewing sciency stuff that I didn't understand. Which sort of made it more understandable why my legs weren't working as well as I expected them to.
Your impressive ability to be wrong about stuff makes it very difficult to figure out when you could be more wrong.
Lol! You're going to need some Savlon on that burn, Binners. 😀
Perhaps take the time to enlighten yourself a bit better, so you don’t make the same mistakes in future.
Binners you know what you were saying yesterday about lefties being sanctimonious and patronising? You're not wrong in this case.
Ok, so you’re now attempting to laugh it off, which is understandable, as you’ve been somewhat embarrassed.
Dude, seriously, I think the lump of coal some-one shoved up your ass is probably well on it's way to becoming a diamond. Chill the **** out. We're none of us on a mission to seek the ultimate truth here, we're just slacking off our day jobs.
It's a well-known fact that only Jewish comedians can make jokes about Jews.
Are you Jewish dazh?
Are you even a comedian?
.
I'm not sure if you are allowed to laugh at a joke about a Jew if you are not Jewish yourself. Probably not. Although if you are Jewish you have a cultural responsibility to laugh. It's a minefield out there in comedyland.
Afternoon comrade.
Stand back folks. The other one of the Chuckle Brothers is here 😉
It's fun, fun, fun from here on in...
A Jewish woman was at the beach with her son, when a huge wave washed him out sea. All of a sudden the clouds parted, a heavenly trumpeter sounded and God himself plucked the little boy out of the sea and returned him to safety on the beach.
The woman grabbed him hugged him, and lifting her head to the heavens said "He had a hat..."
Where's the report buttton..
it's not that bad a joke.
That's a bit tasteless binners. As a pasty-eating northern comedian yourself you must be aware that one of the Chuckle Brothers died a while back.
Walks into thread.
Walks right out again Grandpa Simpson style.
You know I love you really, Ernie 🙂
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