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The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
It’ll take a while for the red wall voters to feel the impact
You think Labour won a couple of seats because of fishermen?
So far, the Tories have gained 75 seats and Labour has lost 91.
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
Errrr, the Lib Dems were *far* more "remainy" than Labour.
You’re not ideologically pure enough! So take your vote and **** off!
You are the one who started on the thread by praying for a purging of the unbelievers.
Perhaps you might want to practice what you preach?
It's too late. The damage is done. When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And so he has.
It's probably beyond redemption now, no matter who is leader.
Well done to all involved
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
Lol! Have you started on the sauce a bit early today? Corbyn's currently suspended. Has been for a while now. This is all on Armrest's watch. As much as you need your bogeyman, to blame Corbyn for 'destroying the party', when it's actually Armrest that has overseen a massive exodus of members, supporters and now voters, is just delusional. Take some water with it. 😉
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
I think you also said that any of the other candidates being selected would also have destroyed the party.
On a similar note... everyone currently throwing bricks at Starmer (I admit to lobbing a fair few pebbles his way myself)... which candidate for Leader should they have picked instead of Starmer? Even in hindsight, he probably looks like the best choice available at the time to me. And if you want him replaced RIGHT NOW, rather than a few years down the line... who the hell with?
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
It’ll take a while for the red wall voters to feel the impact
No Falmouth is a University Town - Labour do well there.
The full story across Cornwall is significantly more depressing. Some of the poorest areas here have gone blue. Maybe the Tories are better at getting their demographic to the polling stations.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwall-council-local-elections-live-5383705
I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And so he has.
It’s probably beyond redemption now, no matter who is leader.
Well done to all involved
So yesterday's Labour share of the vote in Hartlepool, which was considerably worse than the very worse vote Labour achieved under Corbyn, is all the fault of Corbyn and anyone who supported him?
Well I'm sure that Keir Starmer will be very relieved to hear that binners.
At least he doesn't have to worry about having to do things differently.
is all the fault of Corbyn and anyone who supported him?
Well it certainly wouldn't have happened without him. No Corbyn, no Brexit => No brexit UKIP would still be taking 20pc of the Tory Vote. Cameron would have run out his term with a tiny majority.
I don't blame him - he didn't know he was going to win - but it is his 'fault'.
Even in hindsight, he probably looks like the best choice available at the time to me. And if you want him replaced RIGHT NOW, rather than a few years down the line… who twith?
+1
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And then I recall you doing your best to ensure that was the case.
Which is the problem really. Previously the left of the party was willing to mostly go along with the right of the party but once Corbyn got in and the lunatics on the right went full out war it didnt really set things up for future cooperation.
Starmer could have tried to bridge the gap but he seems to have decided to burn down the bridge instead.
The Majority of the press and media in this country is owned / lobbied / funded by Tory party donors. We're screwed.
decided to burn down the bridge instead.
Nobody can point to a single thing he's done to burn bridges.
Out of interest am I the only one who wonders how much worse the result for Labour would have in Hartlepool if Keir Starmer hadn't gone shopping for wallpaper in John Lewis?
Obviously that hilarious 6th form schoolboy stunt grabbed the imagination of many undecided voters.
Talking of which...... how you getting on with your A levels binners?
And then I recall you doing your best to ensure that was the case.
You vastly overestimate the power of Binners. You also overestimate his support for "the right" of the party. Go and read the first few pages of the Corbyn thread... it's quite illuminating actually. Same goes for me as it happens... I didn't start voting Labour 'till Corbyn was elected and moved the party's policies in the 2017 manifesto.
Nobody can point to a single thing he’s done to burn bridges.
Apart from disown his leadership manifesto.
Apart from disown his leadership manifesto.
Things have occurred since then. Do you think Johnson, or Sturgeon, are doggedly sticking to things they said in 2019?
Things have occurred since then. Do you think Johnson, or Sturgeon, are doggedly sticking to things they said in 2019?
They have, so perhaps he could tell us what he plans to do instead. Apart from his highly-successful flag-waving strategy.
There's [ still ] bugger all detail, and there needs to be, as many of us have said. Voters are left thinking that Labour is proposing the same policies as they did in 2019, or have no idea at all what Labour now stand for.
The Majority of the press and media in this country is owned / lobbied / funded by Tory party donors.
Unlike the good ol'days when we had Labour governments that implemented profound changes and reforms which served the interests of ordinary working people and changed their lives in a very real way.
Such as, the Race Discrimination Act, Health and Safety at Work Act, the NHS, discriminalisation of homosexuality, Open University, Equal Pay Act, etc etc
That sounds like all that "Wokism" stuff I've heard is a very bad thing, for some reason.
Voters are left thinking that Labour is proposing the same policies as they did in 2019, or have no idea at all what Labour now stand for.
Quite - I'm in the latter camp. Those of us on the left made a Faustian pact pragmatic compromise when voting for Starmer, but what we're seeing is Labour moving even further away from power.
Apart from disown his leadership manifesto.
ransos, the good folk of Hartlepool just voted for a party that had to blackmailed into feeding hungry children. Do you honesty think that they were worried at all that Starmer wasn't binding himself tightly to a manifesto he inherited 18 months ago?
Personally I think folk in Hartlepool can see Johnson for what he is, they know he's a liar and corrupt, and I think they understand that the Tories don't represent them really. I think they've voted pragmatically and I think they're voting in the hopes that they'll get something in return.
Great stuff from Owen Jones / Michael Walker
(I don't agree with lots Owen Jones offers up generally - both Novara and Owen Jones are tax and spend for instance. )
LMAO one of the comments "He probably knows the vision of Saudi Arabia more than Hartlepool"
The UK is upside down.
Stronger words required. What poll is that from?
EDIT: https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/two-in-five-healthcare-workers-vote-conservative-in-local-elections/ - no mention of the polling company used, so is this just one of those "we asked our readers" type "polls"?
Stronger words required. What poll is that from?
no mention of the polling company used, so is this just one of those “we asked our readers” type “polls”?
Maybe but I wouldn't expect any poll of that nature to swing to the Tories.
Depends who you are asking. If it's not a controlled group, especially if it's an open poll shared via a URL, then they are notoriously unreliable.
How the hell did the Tories get away with "more police safer street" on the ballot paper?
It got signed off by the Electoral Commission! It was on my paper for the Police & Crime commssioner.
Maybe but I wouldn’t expect any poll of that nature to swing to the Tories.
I think you'd be surprised just how many doctors and nurses already vote for the Tories.
Do you honesty think that they were worried at all that Starmer wasn’t binding himself tightly to a manifesto he inherited 18 months ago?
I think they probably couldn't tell you what Starmer is for. Apart from flags.
I think you’d be surprised just how many doctors and nurses already vote for the Tories.
Nothing is suprising me these days!
Nurses in the Royal College of Nursing have always tended to be right-wing, otherwise they would have joined a proper trade union.
Often nurses come from affluent middle-class backgrounds, and no doubt often with the intention of marrying a doctor.
The Tory health minister Nadine Dorris is a former nurse.
I guess it depends how the poll was carried out.
A similar situation occurs in the teaching profession. IME female teachers often come from affluent middle-class backgrounds and have right-wing views, whilst male teachers tend to come from much more working-class backgrounds and are likely to be left-wing. At least that is what I found during my schooldays.
I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
Oh bugger off. It was very much not destroyed in May 2017. In fact it was very much united behind the most transformative and popular manifesto any party had produced in decades, and they had just won the most amount of votes and biggest vote share in years. But the labour right wing didn't like that, they couldn't accept that a (moderate) left wing grassroots activist leader with demcratic socialist policies could be successful, and they couldn't accept that they had lost. And so they detonated the anti-semitism bomb and called their own leader and all his supporters racists, and poisoned the labour brand beyond repair. The responsibility for destroying the party is squarely on their shoulders, and those are the people you're supportiing.
and no doubt often with the intention of marrying a doctor.
Christ, do you want to be a bit more patronising?
And so the labour left and right go at it hammer and tongs ad infinitum while the Tories laugh their way to government.
Moronic
And so they detonated the anti-semitism bomb and called their own leader and all his supporters racists, and poisoned the labour brand beyond repair.
Corbyn made his own bed on that one, you really cant blame everything on those pesky rightwing newlabourites
I think whats interesting is how different England is from Wales & Scotland- where the Tories are having a dreadful time
@ernielynch "Often nurses come from affluent middle-class backgrounds, and no doubt often with the intention of marrying a doctor."
What a complete pile of horse shit.
As a nurse of 25 years, I possibly recognise 1/2 dozen people from that description. Want some vinegar for that chip on your shoulder?
Nurses in the Royal College of Nursing have always tended to be right-wing, otherwise they would have joined a proper trade union.
Often nurses come from affluent middle-class backgrounds, and no doubt often with the intention of marrying a doctor.
What a totally ****ing ignorant and irritating thing to write.
You do know that this is 2021 and not 1971 don't you?
My wife and I are both Nurses (from mining backgrounds) and our youngest son is a Paramedic. Most of our colleagues are from varied backgrounds but certainly not all from this affluent middle class you assume.
There is varied representation split about 70% in favour of RCN with the remainder in Unison; I am in the former predominantly so when I need a rep they are from a Nursing background which my colleagues report is their main motivation too.
We also have a varied spread of Student Nurses coming through the ranks, again they rarely seem to be from this mythical affluent background, predominantly just 18/19 year old taking on £40K plus of debt to do a degree.
The others tend to be Nursing Assistants who are sick of working for not much more than minimum wage and want to improve their life chances. Some do this by following the degree route but a rising number of others via the Trainee Nursing Associate scheme.
The number of people making the move from NA to Nurse is steadily growing as is the number of male Nurses.
Agreed, when Hattie Jakes was the Matron, Nurses from more privileged backgrounds joined the prfession, but since I started Nursing in 1996 this has not been the case and the aspiration to marry a doctor has only been voiced once in all that time by a colleague.
Looking at our teams we would say that predominantly it's newer NA's and more senior Nurses who are likely to vote Conservative, along with the domestic and maintenance staff. Obviously I can't extrapolate this to the wider healthcare community like you have but this is our (limited) experience of jointly 45 years of Nursing.
And when politics was discussed prior to the 2019 election, which is rare, I'm sorry to say that Corbyn wass usually in the first sentence of Tory voters - 'I'd vote for Labour but.........'
As a geologist I place Ernie's views as late Meghalayan to early Anthropocene with a high degree of confidence, no need for carbon14 dating.
Eveeytime I pop in here I see that Stammer is doing so much better than Corbyn. Yep today was a great day...victory soon, maybe, if we allow him to play the long game and not rock the boat...or something
Sir Keir said he was "bitterly disappointed", but pledged to lead a fightback for his party and to set out a "bold vision" in the next few days
Could the useless ****ing **** not have done that last week?
As a geologist I place Ernie’s views as late Meghalayan to early Anthropocene with a high degree of confidence, no need for carbon14 dating.
Fair enough, I am very happy to be corrected. It was, I will admit, a very long time ago that I spent ten years going out/living with a nurse, and many years since I last worked in a hospital.
I am more than pleased to hear that things have changed so dramatically and that female nurses are now very typically Labour voting lefties and that the Royal College of Nursing is now a left-wing Labour-supporting trade union like Unison.
There must be another reason why that poll of health workers showed a huge Tory lead.
Hopefully it's not true as the general consensus on stw appears to be that only stupid thick racists vote for Johnson's Tory Party. And it's obviously quite worrying to think of all those stupid thick racists working for the NHS.
As a geologist I place Ernie’s views as late Meghalayan to early Anthropocene with a high degree of confidence, no need for carbon14 dating.
Nice work. 😀
Fair enough, I am very happy to be corrected. It was, I will admit, a very long time ago that I spent ten years going out/living with a nurse, and many years since I last worked in a hospital.
I am more than pleased to hear that things have changed so dramatically and that female nurses are now very typically Labour voting lefties and that the Royal College of Nursing is now a left-wing Labour-supporting trade union like Unison.
There must be another reason why that poll of health workers showed a huge Tory lead.
Hopefully it’s not true as the general consensus on stw appears to be that only stupid thick racists vote for Johnson’s Tory Party. And it’s obviously quite worrying to think of all those stupid thick racists working for the NHS.
Equally nice work.
no doubt often with the intention of marrying a docto
Get a ****ing grip you lunatic.
Nice work
Without doubt. An exceptionally fine piece of piss-taking by Ed. I was impressed.
sorry to change topic, but something I have zero clue as to what the answer is. A lot of the chat seems to have been that the tories have managed to get pro brexit voters to vote for them instead of Labour. How does that play out in wales, a country that voted out in HUGE numbers currently looks like its going to be Labour again.
How does that play out in wales, a country that voted out in HUGE numbers currently looks like its going to be Labour again.
Presumably it's the Welsh Labour Party's standing among Welsh voters that makes the difference.
Has the Welsh government preformed well?
the labour party is a rich greek college student.
wales, a country that voted out in HUGE numbers
It was 52.5/47.5, only very slightly more than the UK as a whole.
I think Drakeford is reasonably popular. During the pandemic, Welsh leadership suddenly got about 500 times more airtime than it normally does, has coincided with an increase in culturally if not politically nationalist sentiment, Drakeford has done quite well. I thought his TV appearances were just what was required as a stark contrast to Johnson in most ways. The difference in his manner and approach to the pandemic served as a proxy for a bit of national pride, I think. Probably why Plaid hasn't done well.
I am more than pleased to hear that things have changed so dramatically and that female nurses are now very typically Labour voting lefties and that the Royal College of Nursing is now a left-wing Labour-supporting trade union like Unison.
There must be another reason why that poll of health workers showed a huge Tory lead.
Hopefully it’s not true as the general consensus on stw appears to be that only stupid thick racists vote for Johnson’s Tory Party. And it’s obviously quite worrying to think of all those stupid thick racists working for the NHS.
It's nice to have my words twisted so you can still come out feeling all superior in 'winning the argument'.
I never stated that the RCN was now a left wing Labour support trade union like Unison as you well know - I merely told you why many nurses choose to join as regards professional representation and not for political reasons.
Also, as regards why HCP's are choosing to vote Tory then I suppose a small minority are and always were but most were not.
In the 2019 election the usual reason given by my colleagues who historically had always voted Labour was that they couldn't vote for Corbyn; I could and I did as I found him a refreshing change and hoped he would win.
Unfortunately he didn't and now those who, for the first time ever, struggled to vote Tory, have got the first one out of the way and the second time is much easier.
Anyway, wouldn't want to get in the way of your self congratulatory postings so I won't bother you again on such topics.
You keep it up, I'm sure being so superior and condescending will encourage the HCP's who voted Tory to rush back to a proper left wing movement asap.
So Starmer says the labour party has spent too much time talkiing to itself. That's pretty hilarious considering he's spent the last year at war with the left wing of his party and hasn't come up with a single policy or idea (no, a savings account doesn't cut it) which addresses the interests of working people in the north and elsewhere. He's completely out of his depth, politically inept and naive, incapable of learning the lessons of very recent history, and too easily influenced by those who are only interested in their own positions than the people they're supposed to serve. What's even worse though is that he also appears to be an incompetent manager and leader, which were supposed to be the things he is best at. He needs to go, maybe not right now, but he can't go into the next election.
Also, as regards why HCP’s are choosing to vote Tory then I suppose a small minority are and always were but most were not.
I assume you haven't seen the poll which was posted on the previous page which shows an allegedly Tory ten percent lead among healthcare workers. Obviously Corbyn isn't party leader anymore so it's fairly hard to blame him for that.
Btw dangerousbeans you have obviously taken a lot of offense by my frivolous comment which I didn't expect to be taken too seriously, so I apologise for that.
I genuinely find STW an interesting window into the mindset of liberal middle-class attitudes. I don't take this place too seriously and no one should take me too seriously.
Yes of course I deliberately wind people up sometimes but there is no intention to be genuinely offensive. So apologies once again if I wound you up beyond what was intended. I have a lot of respect for healthcare workers and the challenging conditions they have to work under.
It's ok guys, Starmer is thinking about moving Labour HQ out of London to show they aren't london-centric, so I expect he'll be PM very soon.
A good leader needs to be able to know what is not working and do something about it.
Unfortunately for Starmer (was the same with Corbyn) he doesn't realise it is him who is not working.
Have Binners and Peter Mandelson been see in the same room?
Constant infighting isn't working either but that doesn't seem to be bothering most people on here.
Well that all went roughly as expected then.
😂
So what's next?
Shadow cabinet reshuffle? I'd like to see some louder voices, Yvette Cooper, Clive Lewis and Tan Dhesi would be nice mix to add.
Who else?
See Mandleson is blaming the 2 C's: Covid and Corbyn. I hope no one listens to him because with that stubborn insular mindset "things can only get worse". More flags and less immigration shouts will just end up with an increased hemorrhage of votes to Green and LD and more confusion about who Labour are.
Some more in depth thought here
https://unherd.com/2021/05/labour-isnt-working/
There is another counter article on the same site by the Canary journalist who wrote a PhD thesis about himself
The Croydon Communist is clearly sticking with the party line on why people become nurses, just from CPGB in the 50's
Nail on the head.
Do you really have to go in for the juvenile patronising reductionist dismissive 'Croydon Communist' bit? He's livened things up on here from time to time. And anyway, for accuracy's sake, I'd be more inclined to go for CPB (M-L) or even CPE (M-L) with a little bit of monarchism thrown in. Arguments aren't dealt with and lessons aren't learned from just spouting insults.
Whoa ....thanks Bill but a bit off the mark. For my political stance think the late Bob Crow. Actually tbh the organisation which probably closest represents my views is the RMT Executive, although I'm not a railwayman.
And I actually believe that what UK politics needs today is someone who can connect with ordinary working people in the way that Bob Crow undoubtedly could.
He’s completely out of his depth, politically inept and naive, incapable of learning the lessons of very recent history, and too easily influenced by those who are only interested in their own positions than the people they’re supposed to serve. What’s even worse though is that he also appears to be an incompetent manager and leader,
Certainly not sticking up for Starmer but this exactly what I thought of Corbyn and was the reason his leadership went backwards.
Do you really have to go in for the juvenile patronising reductionist dismissive ‘Croydon Communist’ bit?
No different to calling anyone left of the liberal democrats sixth formers. The empty vessels on the right - I'm not using the term centrist any more because it's inaccurate, and a smoke screen for being right wing - have no interest in anything outside of their comfortable middle class professional managerialist bubbles, and anyone who differs is an extremist or utopian. Corbyn said more in that 5 minute channel 4 interview than Starmer has in the past year. He may not have been the best front man but he and others like McDonnell at least understand the concerns of working people, because they actually get out in the community and work along side them. Starmer and his elitist cabal need to get their heads out of their backsides and start getting their hands dirty. We know they won't though, because they look down on anyone who does real work in communities with real people.
I'm not Owen Jones biggest fan but I like a lot of what he says. Yesterday I was struck by this comment he made :
"Starmer’s team are on safari, knowing nothing about communities they didn’t grow up in, leading to cosplay, caricature and flag-waving, which screeches inauthenticity and nothing more."
I particularly liked "are on safari". I don't know if he nicked the metaphor from someone else but I've never heard it before and thought it summed it up very nicely.
The cosplay comment is particularly true. To anyone with eyes and a couple of brain cells Starmer is every bit the sharp suited, coiffured high-flying city lawyer, yet he pretends to be a man of the people because his parents were working class, as if that is all that is necessary. It's plain for anyone to see that someone from the directorial senior management class isn't a man of the people and has no idea about their lives or their concerns.
He'd be far better off admitting that he doesn't understand real people because he isn't one, and then doing everything he can to get out into communities to show people that he wants to correct that. And I'm talking about more than just showing up and asking a few questions, I'm talking about working on the ground, in foodbanks, soup kitchens, community projects, schools, hospitals, factories, and doing it properly without the media present.
Yep, that is what Boris had to do to get people backing the tory party. Couldn't keep him out of those soup kitchens.
Yep, that is what Boris had to do to get people backing the tory part
FFS he doesn't have to. He has an entire media industry at his disposal who have been pushing Boris as a jocular 'normal bloke' for over a decade. They don't even use his real name. Starmer has to do it the hard way, unless you think the media are suddenly going to start reporting things honestly?
The cosplay comment is bloody good to be fair but the problem is those pesky northerners didn't seem to think Corbyn represented their interests either... Getting him or any of his Marra's back ain't gonna work either.
PS I'm a genuine Northerner who voted for Corbyn twice and now have an ex-kipper for an MP... And I still get 'well Corbyn would have been worse than Boris' in the factory where I work.
Well, that Embery article is exactly what I predicted would be the talking point once the results were in… that success in winning in the major cities would itself be declared part of the problem. That Labour’s successes in the areas they do well in would be described as a tactical failure. What do these people want? For the major cities to have more Conservative majors and councils, so that those outside those regions can feel more connected with Labour?
FFS he doesn’t have to. He has an entire media industry at his disposal who have been pushing Boris as a jocular ‘normal bloke’ for over a decade. They don’t even use his real name. Starmer has to do it the hard way, unless you think the media are suddenly going to start reporting things honestly?
People happily vote for Johnson who is not in touch with 'real' people but won't do the same for Starmer. Have you thought that you have maybe just made that reason up on why Labour are not getting votes?
And I still get ‘well Corbyn would have been worse than Boris’ in the factory where I work.
Given the same pandemic to deal with they may well have been right. I wouldn't want Corbyn leading it anymore than I would want Johnson. Post pandemic would be another matter though.
Nail on the head.
He still groups the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, and the response to them, into one. He’s absolutely wrong there. The response to the two manifestos couldn’t have been more different. Still claiming that the 2019 polices were popular isn’t learning, is it. It’s still the ‘won the argument’ line, and that isn’t what happened.
As for saying he wouldn’t have supported government Covid measures, no, he wouldn’t have. Thank god he was out of the way when we needed people to come together and accept the difficult restrictions that would have been resisted in more normal times.
Generally though, that was a good interview with a past leader, he came across as very reasonable, and avoided the big elephant traps.
Corbyn would have listened to eg David King and the outcome could have been very different.
Then why did he keep voting against the measures needed to control the virus? (Measures that were often too little, too late, but he opposed even those).
So, Sadiq Khan almost certainly going to the second votes vs Sean Bailey in contention for London Mayor. That’d be a major loss for Labour, but even as we were voting and despite the fact we know nothing about Bailey we were asking ourselves what exactly has Khan done during his term? He’s been mostly under the radar with anything tangible.
Corbyn would probably have listened to the Guardian. After all the Guardian and its readers managed to convince him of the need for a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive
what exactly has Khan done during his term?
Well when Corbyn was leader he was spending quite a bit of time attacking him.
Even if he scrapes in the mayoral election it will be an extremely bad result for him.
Sean Bailey was a very poor opponent. I got every indication that the Tories had accepted they would lose the London mayoral election and simply put up a token candidate. No major high profile Tory politician would have wanted to lose and be humiliated by Khan, as Zac Goldsmith was.
As London was overwhelming Remain they are going to struggle to blame Brexit.
How does that play out in wales, a country that voted out in HUGE numbers currently looks like its going to be Labour again.
Welsh Labour has mastered the art of managerial politics.
Their manifestos promise nothing much and they have few ambitions other than to keep things ticking along. This allows them to remain amorphous - representing different things to different people.
They retain support from traditional right-wing Brexit types as well as younger Corbyn inspired socialists.
Their brand is strong and binds them to families and communities who see themselves as belonging to the party. The leaders, like Drakeford, are avuncular, unambitious and try to avoid confrontations with Westminster. And they're generally well-liked.
They feel safe and familiar.