People shredded labour because they recognised that what they were proposing was unaffordable. It was then. It still is. We’re going to be picking up the bill for this public borrowing for decades to come.
I'm going to agree with Dazh on this. This will merely be used by the tories to further erode the state.
No problem was ever solved by keeping things the same.
But your method of change was flawed, or should I say unhinged, going back to the 70's with Corbyn was never going to work.
Tends to reduce the trust in the currency in rest of world though. Currency is trust. Generally best not to go the route of hyperinflation either.
going back to the 70’s with Corbyn was never going to work
I'd agree with that statement if it was correct, but it's not. Firstly I've never suggested going back to the 70s was a good thing. We need to look forward and adopt policies suited to a world where we need to eliminate fossil fuels, live sustainably and adapt to automation. Labour under Corbyn (and to a greater extent McDonnell) were in the process of doing that, with policies such as the green new deal and their interest in stuff like reduced working hours and UBI. Going back to the 70s was never the plan. I hope Starmer has similar ambitions when he finally gets round to letting us know what his plans are.
Generally best not to go the route of hyperinflation either.
You're going to have to back up that sweeping and alarmist statement with an argument. Why does not paying back the the 'national debt' create hyperinflation?
I think Corbyn's goals were the right ones (I believe he genuinely wanted to reduce inequality) but I don't think he had the political understanding to achieve them.
I think Starmer has the political understanding to achieve his goals. Unfortunately his goals don't seem to extend much beyond 'become PM'.
You might argue that all we need right now is to get rid of BoJo and his like but I don't think a Tory-lite government is going to do the country any good in the long run.
I don't think either of them have the economic understanding, and that's key.
I don’t think either of them have the economic understanding
Care to elaborate?
Wel Corbyn made no effort to explain th eeconomic implications of Brexit to his faithful, failed to campagne in Sunderland on a remain ticket that would have benefitted Sunderland workers.
And Starmer isn't interested in campaigning for freedom of movement despite all the economic benefits that would come with it.
Then we have theri domestic manifesto which I'm sure you have read, Dazh. I agree with much of it in that many social issues are at the centre of policy and that pleases me. What is missing is the cost benefit analysis of those very policies. Everything thing can be linked to the economy and every social advance can be demonstrated to contribute to the long term health of th eeconomy. But no, both Corbyn and Starmer just promise spending which people see as spendthrift and giving away their tax money. Neither has a pedogogical approach to their economic policy. They fail to convince the blue collar and white collar workers who would benefit economically from their policies to vote for them because they don't even try to explain.
I've been watchin g Starmer in parliament and it's woeful, there's nothing to inspire me a as leftie (because in UK teerms that's what I am) that he has even understood left wing economic policies let alone started to preach them. He needs to read Thomas Piketty and write some sound bites inspired by him.
Labour won't win by paying lip service to Tory economics, they need to denounce the greed, commit to redistributing wealth, and convince anyone on under £80 000 PA (total household income family of four) that that means them.
Another great post Ed. Lots that many of us can agree with. I do, anyway.
Surely his cheerleaders have to admit that in the face of the most corrupt, inept government in living memory, that is a catastrophic failure. We are doomed.
Still doing better than I expected at this point. And who are his “cheerleaders”?
Looking at that… where are the voters going? Others? Does that mean PC in Wales?
Looking at that… where are the voters going?
The Reflux Party?
He's going to be doing a weekly column in the Telegraph I gather.
That should boil plenty of piss!
Edukator for PM!
Nail Johnson to the wall at PMQs today
He's been doing that for ages, very few people care.
That should boil plenty of piss!
'Hur Hur, let's troll some libtard snowflakes' 🙄
kelvin
Full MemberAnd who are his “cheerleaders”?
I think that's a big part of the problem tbh. That and the fact that most people know nothing about economics and so are very easy to lie to when it comes to the economy (of course not helped by successive Labour leaderships that were happy to nod and say yes to those lies)
grum
Free MemberHe’s been doing that for ages, very few people care.
That's exactly what has been happening, how many people actually listen to PMQ?
Honestly I don't think I have ever spoken to anyone in my day to day life that would know who was even stood up talking.
Most go by a few sound bites from a paper or what they saw on the news and even then they probably were more interested what was for tea.
Starmer could be the next Messiah but unless Boris stood up and acceded to him on every media outlet no one would know!
PMQs is just he pinch point where Starmer first proposes, and then later points to, the Uturns the government must make. The public hear about the government at first ridiculing and then later following the advice of the opposition through the media and press elsewhere.
Anneliese Dodds wasting no time in her speech to the Business School at City University London - supporting the neolibral construct of fiscal responsibility. (Contracting the economy for the sake of balancing the books. We all know who that will come back to hurt.)
Drivel about the size of the debt (clue it's not 2.1 trillion when the BoE owns 40% of it. ) The debt is the current money supply and is not a debt as it's not borrowed it's a swap of bonds/money. All UKP comes from the BoE and its agents. Where did you think the money comes from to pay your taxes?
Drivel about the BoE's independence.(The MPC is appointed by the Chancellor and sets monetary policy according to the Government's target. A public body answerable to UK Parliament. Q/E has to be agreed with the Government.)
Ugh. Labour to do battle with the Tories using Tory framework. Labour will never out Tory the Tories no matter how dogmatic.
Labour are doing the exact opposite of what they're should be doing.
Richard Murphy does it better than I can.
The problem for labour once again is the right wing propaganda. Corbyns manifesto of course we could afford - but was easy for the right wing propaganda to label as unnaffordable
labour have to do what they have to do to be elected. Its as simple as that.
labour have to do what they have to do to be elected. Its as simple as that.
We all agree on that, but I can't help but feel that accepting the Tory narrative and following them ever rightwards is an electoral dead-end.
If the only way to get elected is to be Tory-lite then England and Wales are screwed.
Especially when you consider that Tory-lite is worse than the full-fat-Tory of only a few years ago.
Anneliese Dodds wasting no time in her speech to the Business School at City University London – supporting the neolibral construct of fiscal responsibility.
Even the FT have abandoned the nonsense about fiscal 'responsibility'. Centrist Labour as usual are miles behind everyone else, fighting the battles of the past. It's about time they came clean and stopped playing the game the tories want them to. I don't expect Dodds will ever figure this out though. She's an awful shadow chancellor and totally out of her depth.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1349643921249472513?s=20
labour have to do what they have to do to be elected.
Being a Tory tribute act? How's that going?
Yes, they are wrong. So are the public. Democracy is a bummer. Labour should be pushing forward of lot of ideas that currently are a hard sell with "the people". But they aren't just a campaigning think tank... we need them to win the next election (however unlikely that looks from where I'm sitting)... we need a Labour government... they have to be seen as "moderate" yet more competent than the alternative to ever get in a position to start turning the UK around.
Labour should be pushing forward of lot of ideas that currently are a hard sell with “the people”.
It should be an easy sell. Tell the public how the system works, expose the corruption of the tories filling the pockets of their mates, demonstrate how labour would use the spending power of the state to improve the lives of everyone, and go hard on taxing the rich as the primary method of controlling inflation. To do that though they need the courage to break out of the neoliberal orthodoxy, and Starmer and Dodds are never gong to do that.
If they can't make the case for using the power of the state to improve the lives of working people while the tories are stuffing billions into the pockets of incompetent private contractors then they should step aside for someone who can.
Are you new to the UK?
If they can’t make the case for using the power of the state to improve the lives of working people while the tories are stuffing billions into the pockets of incompetent private contractors then they should step aside for someone who can.
To be fair, in Scotland they already have.
Unfortunately no one has gotten round to telling the branch office yet.
I agree with dazh, but to be honest, I'll vote for any donkey NOT wearing a blue rosette....
Yup. Me too. Are we the people that need winning over from voting Tory at the last few elections though? [ you know the answer ]
we need a Labour government
Why?
labour have to do what they have to do to be elected. Its as simple as that.
And after that election? Chasing the tories rightwards is how we ended up with a system where slightly left wing ideas are portrayed as far left and rabid right policies are now "centrist".
Are we the people that need winning over from voting Tory at the last few elections though? [ you know the answer ]
And if the only way this can be achieved is by ignoring the current voters? How do you think that will end with lots of people wondering where they should belong?
Why?
It's a good question and one I'm yet to see a good answer for other than, 'If you don't you'll get Boris again.'
Chasing the tories rightwards...
That's just a glib oversimplified notion that many on the left cling to.
Is that what was going on as the Tory party moved further right, strengthened their grip on the country and became so emboldened? Or did it do all that while the Labour party tried (and failed) to make the case for the alternatives that I personally would like the country to adopt? We need to face facts... and try and get a better government, not one that perfectly aligns with our own personal politics, or Johnson and his successor will keep laughing as the public go with them...
That’s just a glib oversimplified notion that many on the left cling to.
Given that Starmer has just u-turned on freedom of movement, I don't think the idea of Labour following the Tories is over-simplified at all.
Unless you can point me in the direction of some Labour policies where they are currently moving left?
We need to face facts… and try and get a better government,
I agree. You seem to think it's axiomatic that this will be delivered with a Labour victory, so I ask again: why?
It’s a good question and one I’m yet to see a good answer for other than, ‘If you don’t you’ll get Boris again.’
Well quite, and it's not an argument that would persuade me to vote Labour again. Given that they are still trailing this incompetent and corrupt government, it appears that a lot of other people who aren't persuaded, either.
If Starmer wants to make an argument that Labour stands for something other than slightly diluted Tory policy, then he needs to start on the narrative now.
I don’t think the idea of Labour following the Tories is over-simplified at all.
The ultimate irony of course is that the tories are going the other way on fiscal policy. They won't admit it of course because it would destroy their reputation for 'responsible' economic management, but they're spending money quite literally as if it grows on trees, and not just on covid. Boris is a secret MMTer I reckon, but the scandal is that he's using it to enrich his private backers, rather than improving the lives of the general population. This is a massive open goal for labour, but they can't take advantage while they're still hooked on outdated and redundant pre-2008 neoliberal economics. It's tragic quite frankly, and will result in another election defeat.
Tories always use tax and spend (and borrowing)... they just spend the money in ways that benefit them and theirs. A crisis just allows them to do more of this, in more a transparent way. Hence the manufactured Brexit crisis we walked into with open arms. Tories love a magic money tree, when they have ways of ensuring few leaves get down to ground level.
Aaaaaanywaaaay... we're back to "I don't want any Labour government, just my flavour of one"... which is the split the Tories love and use to their advantage. I was guilty of this up 'till Corbyn became leader (when I started voting Labour), but I won't be making the same mistake again. I'll be voting Labour at the next election, and I hope (but doubt) that Starmer can widen the support for Labour enough to become PM. If you think that Starmer would be "as bad" as Johnson, or Sunak... don't let me get a sniff of what you're smoking, please.
If you think that Starmer would be “as bad” as Johnson, or Sunak… don’t let me get a sniff of what you’re smoking, please.
I had hoped that in response to my question you would have something more substantial than "I'm not Boris", but it appears not.
I’ll be voting Labour at the next election, and I hope (but doubt) that Starmer can widen the support for Labour enough to become PM.
At the next election Johnson will be offering all sorts of spending pledges (which will benefit his friends) and promises not to raise taxes, while labour will be preaching restraint and the need to raise taxes to 'pay off the debt'. Who do you think people are going to vote for?
If you think that Starmer would be “as bad” as Johnson, or Sunak… don’t let me get a sniff of what you’re smoking, please.
I think we have to look beyond the next election.
Do you remember when May said that 80% of people cast their votes for parties that supported triggering Article 50?
The UK has a truly broken electoral system. If it worked as it should then each person would be voting for an MP to represent the interests of their community in Parliament. That MP would put the interests of their constituency above their party's interests every time. In reality, people are being forced to directly elect a PM using a system that means the vast majority of votes are wasted.
If you say, 'I'm voting for Starmer because Johnson is worse' then you are actively supporting this broken system and contributing to the mess that is getting progressively worse as time goes by.
If you say, ‘I’m voting for Starmer because Johnson is worse’ then you are actively supporting this broken system and contributing to the mess that is getting progressively worse as time goes by.
What's getting worse? Any particular metric?
Thinking back to the 70s and 80s everything seems to be better in any practical metric I can think of. Or how about the 50s if you want an even more stark contrast.
