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Competitive and overly-conspicuous virtue-signalling may go down a storm in the common room, but most people just roll their eyes when they see it.
Really? Starmer and co seem to think its working well for the tories and so are copying it. I wouldnt be surprised if they get so competitive they start wearing poppies from next week.
That really is the worst strawman I’ve seen in a long time.
Clearly, you don't actually understand what a 'straw man' argument actually is. Binners was displaying the common trait of conflating Islam and Muslims with terrorism. It's forgivable, because many people were taken in by the carefully orchestrated plan to create the new 'Goldstein' in order to be able to justify Imperialist belligerence. And this lack of depth of understanding of issues is demonstrated further in this thread, in the responses of those who think that Starmer being ordered, sorry, 'advised' not to attend an event by a particular group, is simple and easily explained. It's well worth noting that the Board of Deputies is an organisation that has essentially become a lobbying group for Israeli corporate and political interests, and is not without its own flaws:
Starmer, in obeying the orders of- sorry; taking the 'advice' of this group, has shown that he is little more than a corporate Yes man; a puppet in a stuffed suit. As for Cage; it's an advocacy group for people affected by xenophobic government policy. Again, like the BoD, it's not without its own flaws, but comments like this:
Anyone with any ties to The Cage isn’t exactly the sort of folk any normal politician should be seen within 200 yards of
Merely serve to highlight how rampant Islamophobia has become, in our society. And how easily influenced people are. It really does pay to do your own homework, and read between the lines a bit more, rather than crying about a hungry dog.
Binners was displaying the common trait of conflating Islam and Muslims with terrorism
Don't be ridiculous. I wasn't doing anything of the sort. I was merely pointing out how utterly ludicrous it is to say that Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq was entirely responsible for the demonisation of Muslims in UK society, but the small matter of 9/11 wasn't a contributory factor in that.
Of course it was. To say that that had no influence is laughable. What I'm saying is that an 'us and them' narrative wasn't purely to do with western sabre-rattling, there was another opposing group here who were equally as eager to stoke things up to suit their own agenda. And they didn't half choose a way to do it.
Yes, the reaction of the west was stupid and completely counter-productive, giving the extremists exactly what their 'clash of cultures' narrative demanded, but lets not pretend that this was one-sided. And I don't see how pointing that out is conflating all muslims as terrorists. It isn't. Any more than condemning IRA terrorism is labelling all catholics as such
As for Cage; it’s an advocacy group for people affected by xenophobic government policy. Again, like the BoD, it’s not without its own flaws
Oh sure, but unlike, say the BoD who's members haven't been on R.T. supporting the implementation of Shirai law in a Caliphate or to refusing to condemn stoning to death for adultery, or calling Jihadi John "A beautiful young man" or had Gita Sahgal call their leader, "Britain's foremost apologist for the Taliban". There comes a point at which you have to regard a group's action as not appropriate for a main stream political involvement, and especially not the Leader of her Majesties Opposition.
You know that I’m not actually standing for election, right? I’m just a nobhead on the internet.
No, I had no idea. Why for heaven's sake aren't you? If there's one man on here who knows how to win elections it's clearly you.
I know because you tell us on a daily basis. And anyone who doesn't agree with you on how to win an election is an "utterly clueless idiot". Apparently.
Btw you do realise that it's not only the people who are actually standing for election who try to win votes for a candidate, don't you?
As a member of the Labour Party you must have surely knocked on people's doors and announced "I am canvassing on behalf of so-and-so the Labour Party candidate"??
Or do you just do your election work on STW binners?
I still can't envisage a world where anyone could care less what I think, comrade.
Nor would I want to.
*shudders*
I'm only typing this reply to you now because I'm meant to be designing some adverts for vegan dietary supplements (yes, really) and I'm not really feeling it. 🙂
Oh sure, but unlike, say the BoD who’s members haven’t been on R.T. supporting the implementation of Shirai law in a Caliphate or to refusing to condemn stoning to death for adultery, or calling Jihadi John “A beautiful young man” or had Gita Sahgal call their leader, “Britain’s foremost apologist for the Taliban”. There comes a point at which you have to regard a group’s action as not appropriate for a main stream political involvement, and especially not the Leader of her Majesties Opposition.
So you chose to ignore this bit?
In 2018, the BoD were forced to suspend the deputy for Finchley United Synagogue, Roslyn Pine, for six years for referring to Muslims as “the vilest of animals” and Arabs as “so evil” and saying how she “detests the creed of Islam” and believes that killing Jews and “destroying Israel” is a fundamental pillar of Islam. Even more shocking was that Pine claimed that every deputy at BoD held similar views “otherwise what is their purpose there?”. Oddly enough, while the BoD took the view that Pine had brought the Board into disrepute there doesn’t appear to have been a statement from the BoD distancing themselves from her remarks. This suggests they were only concerned about the public’s perception of the BoD and it exposes a weakness in their ability, or even desire, to challenge Islamophobia from certain right wing Jewish groups that they represent.
Seems you did. As I said; crying about hungry dogs is pointless if you haven't actually done your homework...
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-israel-ambassador-jewish-group-nakba-slammed
Oh my. That bridges post is a ... 'just nod and back away towards the exit' one, isn't it. No way to engage with that really.
EDIT: oh, another one. I should really know by know to avoid any thread once it drops down into this stuff. See ya...
Don’t be ridiculous. I wasn’t doing anything of the sort.
Except you were.
but the small matter of 9/11 wasn’t a contributory factor in that.
Q.E.D. So; the actions of a few individuals justifies the demonisation of an entire religion and all its followers? Ok.
I’m only typing this reply to you now because I’m meant to be designing some adverts for vegan dietary supplements (yes, really) and I’m not really feeling it. 🙂
A proud Guardian reader lacks the inspiration to convince others of the virtues of vegan dietary supplements?? Whatever next!
Q.E.D. So; the actions of a few individuals justifies the demonisation of an entire religion and all its followers? Ok.
Only if you have a ludicrously simplistic worldview. Which plenty on the left do. In no way am I seeking to justify it. I don't really see how you could interpret what I said as in any way 'justifying' it.
9/11 was a terrorist act designed by a small group of extremists to sow discord and spark conflict. It was incredibly successful in doing so. Thats just a truism. So to say that increased tensions with the muslim community in the UK was purely the fault of Tony Blair is ludicrous. Should it have done so? In an ideal world, no. But we don't live in an ideal world. People don't necessarily react rationally when they feel threatened.
he actions of a few individuals justifies the demonisation of an entire religion and all its followers?
See, this is a strawman. Again. Binners has "justified" nothing of the sort. Stop it.
I don’t really see how you could interpret what I said as in any way ‘justifying’ it.
Yet you suggested that those who committed the 9-11 attacks were responsible for the demonisation of an entire religion and its followers? Why would you do that, unless you were actually conflating the actions of a few with an entire religion? To deflect blame away from your Chosen One? Backpedal all you want; you were suckered in. And now you're too afraid to admit it.
So to say that increased tensions with the muslim community in the UK was purely the fault of Tony Blair is ludicrous
Now that, right there, is a 'straw man'. Take note, Kelvin. 😉
I think I'm going to back away from this now because of the whole thing about wrestling with pigs....
Wise... pub at 5pm? Or just a few in the garden?
A few in the garden tonight, mate. Everything I planted last year is flowering so it's all very pleasant.
We've been out to eat for the last two nights. Very bourgeois of me. It's been lovely. I'll definitely be voting Tory off the back of it. Thanks Boris 😉
How about you?
Gin on the terrace for me...
If I can get this colouring in done by five, a few in the garden. I expect the only pub to re-open in the village will already be fully booked. [ RIP pubs = :7( ] Oh, I wouldn't vote for Johnson if he paid for all my beer for life.
I’ll definitely be voting Tory off the back of it. Thanks Boris
And me, I've heard he is doing a great job.
Is Islamophobia going to be Starmer's Achilles heel?
Poor Keir. With an estimated 3 million or so British Muslims, and 85% of them voting for Labour, if he loses their votes, he's really in trouble. Not attending a Muslim event at the orders, sorry, 'advice' of a right wing pressure group, can't be doing him any favours. Still; at least he'll be able to eat a bacon sandwich in peace...
Gin on the terrace for me…
Got a meeting at 3pm, then I'm off to the pub to drink the most expensive hipster IPAs they've got in. 🙂
Where you headed Daz? The Golden Lion? It’ll be nice sat outside there this afternoon
Oh god... pubs... hope someone buys and gets our ones going again. You can't fit the whole of Mytholmroyd into the tiny triangle at the side of Burnley Road.
The pubs round here seem to have come over all Putin and annexed all surrounding roads, car parks and land for outdoor seating areas 😃
Our only drinking hole is sandwiched between the main road and the river... they have taken all the space that they can. The two proper pubs have HUGE beer gardens, and car parks they could convert... but haven't survived the lockdown and are closed. Sad days. Garden beers are going to taste so, so good today though... look at that sky out there! Right... back to colouring in...
The pubs round here seem to have come over all Putin and annexed all surrounding roads, car parks and land for outdoor seating areas
Landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed.
Last night: https://www.labourmuslims.org/event-details/labour-ramadan-iftaar-2021
I'm sure Starmer and his team can cope with engaging with British Muslim communities, without having to ignore British Jewish communities for fear of being called "a corporate Yes man; a puppet in a stuffed suit" for doing so.
Where you headed Daz? The Golden Lion?
Gonna try but suspect they'll have no space. The slots on the website get booked out very quickly. Although I went last weekend and they 'made' me a special spot as I'm a valued customer 🙂
I’m sure Starmer and his team can cope with engaging with British Muslim communities
Kelvin we've moved on to beer now. No more talk about politics today please 😂
Friday's are just about impossible. Get down there at the weekend proper.
EDIT: seen your edit, and agree. I'll shut up, keep scribbling, and longing for that first beer... have some Cloudwater prototypes... drooling already...
Shame about the boozers Kelvin. Just when we need them most. My mates have lost there bar/restaurant which had been going for 15 years. There will be plenty more who are clinging on by their fingertips.
Good job theres no shortage of volounteers to keep the ones still going in business. Can't bloody wait for our first proper Monday Night Pub Ride, finishing where the name suggests it should
Finishing Sunday's ride with a pint outside was an utter joy. The booking thing makes that more difficult, but so me it. Need to get all the numbers in my phone....
Problem is, with most of Mytholmroyd closed, that leaves Hebden, which means weekday really at the moment... it's heaving at the weekends now (which is good really, obvs).
Finishing Sunday’s ride with a pint outside was an utter joy.
I went for an explore along the Trans Pennine and thought I'd chance my arm at a place I've seen getting ready to open a few weeks, back, and they squeezed me into a corner, lovely cool pint after 30 miles was such a joyous thing, I swear I could've cried.
Will you people please stop enjoying a pint down the pub.
According to binners it is very likely to make you vote Tory.
First one's on me if you're ever up in Manchester, ernie.
We can go to my local for a chat with the racists 🙂
When things are proper open, I want a tour of... Track, Cloudwater and Squawk... three amazing breweries... and I've only just realised that they're all in the same area of MCR.
We need a proper pub crawl (or a brewery crawl) when all this nonsense is done
I’m sure Starmer and his team can cope with engaging with British Muslim communities, without having to ignore British Jewish communities for fear of being called “a corporate Yes man; a puppet in a stuffed suit” for doing so.
Who said anything about him ignoring Jews? This is about him acting at the behest of a particular influential right wing lobbying group. Oh, you're not making the mistake of assuming all Jews are the same, are you? Oh dear. What a trap to fall into. Perhaps that beer's gone to your head. Still; many people make that mistake about Muslims, so I'm sure you can be forgiven. Enjoy your pint.
We can go to my local for a chat with the racists 🙂
Now that, is funny. 😀
Oh, you’re not making the mistake of assuming all Jews are the same, are you?
No.
Except, you sort of did. As I said; easy mistake to make. But at least now, you know. And can move on , having learned something. Hopefully. Try not to get too drunk.
having learned something
I feel that I’ve learnt a lot about you.
Hour and half to go…
I feel that I’ve learnt a lot about you.
Well, then your time on here hasn't been a complete waste, after all! 😀
"Now is not the time to celebrate Ramadan "
There was a Labour iftar last night (well, lots of local ones, but one "national" one that Starmer attended). Celebrations come at the end of Ramadam.
One hour to go...
When things are proper open, I want a tour of… Track, Cloudwater and Squawk
Been to cloudwater/track many times. Highly recommended. Also now there's the beatnix brewery just north of Victoria station (and the Pilcrow just south).
Never heard of Beatnix... will hunt out some beer for home delivery in lieu of being free to enjoy MCR drinking again. Thanks.
Beatnix beer ordered (they have some promising looking cans reduced)... retiring to the garden with some goodies from Cloudwater now. Play safe.
Chomsky speaks..
“It’s a good strategy if you want to turn the Labour Party into a junior partner of the Tories. Pretty much like what Tony Blair did, it used to be called Thatcher light. If that’s what you want, fine. If you want a Labour Party that actually represents the working people of England, middle-class people of England, pursue their interests, it’s not the way to do it. It depends on what your goals are. It looks to me that Starmer’s is pretty much dismantling the activist Labour Party that the Corbyn people were trying to develop.”
Chomsky still on the money at 90 odd.
Thanks for that. He's given very air-space on major outlets.
This article needs dangling under James O'Brien and Ian Dunt's big faces.
Always worth reading Chomsky.
“If Corbyn had been elected, Britain would be pursuing a much more sane course”
Absolutely, but that's a huge if, isn't it. His points about activists being key to Biden's policies is a good one. His "Thatcher Light" comment about Blair's government is also true, and depending how you measure it can be applied to all his successors... no leader since Thatcher, in any party, has proposed undoing everything she did... but nor have any avoided taking or proposing measures to counter correct the path she set the UK on. As for "undoing" Corbyn's project of making the Labour Party an activist party... there's some truth in that... the public don't want to elect a party that is "just" an activist party. Keeping that activist spirit, and the ideas that flow from it, while also widening the appeal of the party for when voters choose their MPs/government is the big ask with the big barriers to overcome. Not going well that, is it. We can argue for pages about why that is, but I still think that the problems don't just lie with Starmer and his core team, far from it.
I've got the book he did with Robert Pollin about the green new deal. This article was a good reminder to read it. 🙂
As for “undoing” Corbyn’s project of making the Labour Party and activist party… there’s some truth in that… the public don’t want to elect a party that is “just” an activist party.
The whole point of an acitivist, democratic party is that they better represent the views and concerns of the people they seek to represent. I really don't agree that the public don't want that. In pretty much every survey or piece of research 'the public' say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don't) and how accountable they are. The key to solving the problem of political corruption is more grassroots activism, involvement, and engagement with the public. Starmer with his tory voting red wall focus groups is doing exactly the opposite.
I used the word "just" very deliberately. Many people for whom it would very much be in their own interests to vote Labour, and who agree with many of their key policies, still don't want them in government, party because they do see it being a party of "grass roots activists"* for a range of causes... not a team of politicians ready to run the country for them.
*you and I might mean that to mean anyone and everyone that wants "change", but for many voters this is the "head in the clouds never had to really work hard for a living politically correct idealistic anoraks, who can't relate to us, and whom we simply do not like".
In pretty much every survey or piece of research ‘the public’ say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don’t) and how accountable they are
Sure, but pointing out that people aren't happy with politicians doesn't help. For everyone worried that politicians aren't doing enough for immigrants, there's another complaining that immigrants aren't being fed to the pigs. Labour "activism" isn't what a good percentage of the (Tory voting) people want is it? They had a chance to vote for that, and they rejected it. So now what?
In pretty much every survey or piece of research ‘the public’ say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don’t) and how accountable they are.
Yet we have a lying, corrupt, self-serving charlatan as PM and 'the public' don't seem that bothered what he gets up to, judging by his approval ratings
The key to solving the problem of political corruption is more grassroots activism, involvement, and engagement with the public
I don't know how you come to that conclusion. It might well be the opposite. I'd say that at local level, corruption and nepotism is at least as bad and probably worse than at national level.
Hows Liverpool looking at the moment? Rotton to the core with cronyism and dodgy backhanders for contracts from the supposedly 'lefty' council.
And did you not hear what we were talking about last night outside the pub? All the electric charging points being fitted by Salford council to houses most of whom don't own cars, let alone electric ones. Another massive backhander for someone at the council for signing off that one too.
Best not ask too many questions about 'red' Len, Unison and the ever expanding bill for the the white elephant conference centre and if any relatives were given multi-million pound construction contracts
They had a chance to vote for that, and they rejected it. So now what?
Well lets not forget that in 2017 the reactionaries in the labour bureaucracy actively obstructed and worked against their own party, and now they are the ones in control. What should happen next is what should have happened then, which is the expulsion of anyone working against the party's mission, and then a huge effort from Starmer - as promised - to bring together the different sides of the party. If the problem was *just* Corbyn and his 'cabal', as many claim, then that's solved, and it should be an easy task. He's not doing that though is he? He's pursuing a scorched earth policy which is focused less on electoral success, and more on maintaining their grip on the party.
He’s pursuing a scorched earth policy which is focused less on electoral success, and more on maintaining their grip on the party.
Well, thats one interpretation. Others are available, outside the bunker
🙂
more on maintaining their grip on the party.
Sounds familiar. But that doesn't answer my question, what now? the Voters don't want Labour activism, they rejected it didn't they. They handed Labour their biggest electoral defeat ever. So Starmer should offer more, bigger, better activism? How's that going to work then?
All the electric charging points being fitted by Salford council to houses most of whom don’t own cars
Yeah but that's not a result of a failure of grassroots politics. Its the result of diktats handed to local councils from national government, along with funding, in some grand virtue signalling box-ticking exercise. In any case I'm not defending local councils, I've worked in one and have seen first hand how they operate. The problem in local councils is the same as national politics, which is a lack of accountability and engagemeent with the public. They get away with their incompetence because no one knows about it or has the abiilty to challenge it.
Chinook!
It would be a mistake to imagine that voter's views don't change between elections. The opportunity is there to persuade and share aligned interests, support pay claims and strikes, speak up for the majority. I can't see it happening. If anything, the reverse. I've never really come across Labour 'activists', they just seemed to dish out the leaflets at election time and hope that will make a difference.
Legally enforced racist policies are apartheid. If you 'unconditionally' support an apartheid state then there's a lot of voters that will be switched off by that. As it happens, some millions of traditional Butler and Stokes-type LP voters.
So Starmer should offer more, bigger, better activism?
He should do what he promised in his leadership campaign. Build on the popularity of the 2017 and 2019 policies and form a coalition across the party between activists and MPs who are united behind those policies. As far as I can see he's yet to start on that.
It would be a mistake to imagine that voter’s views don’t change between elections.
You are right, they tend to get more right wing. The voting population is aging and the younger, more likely to vote anything but tory, are not voting.
As far as I can see he’s yet to start on that.
agreed. Perhaps he's read the tealeaves and realised Labour need to be something else to get voted in.
Build on the popularity of the 2017 and 2019 policies
The 'popularity' that lost 2 elections, the second by an absolutely huge margin?
the second by an absolutely huge margin
Oh come on even you have to admit that there were some very specific non-policy things going on in 2019 as well as it being focused on one specific policy which was the brainchild of the current leader.
I think the 2017 manifesto was broadly much more popular than the few that preceded it. When it was leaked, Labour support ticked up significantly IIRC.
Did no one else see the chinook?
Polls showed the 2017 policies were popular anyway:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/poll-shows-people-love-labours-10404216
Did no one else see the chinook?
didn't hear it. Did hear the two Apaches that came over a couple of nights ago, and scared the bejeesus out of me though. Damn those things are loud as ****
So the Labour party leader officially supports a recognised apartheid state - cool. I remember when it was just the right that did that.
We nearly did a whole day without any nudge nudge posts about Israel. We were so close...
Go on then Grum... what do you mean by "officially supports"...?
There was a report came out today about HRW now designating Israel as operating under their definition of apartheid, you think it's not relevant?
He has said he supports Zionism 'without qualification'.
And how does this relate to Starmer? In what way does he "officially support" what?
EDIT: as you added your post...
He has said he supports Zionism ‘without qualification’.
You mean he supports the existence of the state of Israel? Or is there something else you want to share... feel free to use links and actual quotes...
He has said he supports Zionism ‘without qualification’. As I'm sure you knew already.
Are we now at the point where you're 'not allowed' to point out that the leader of a supposedly egalitarian socialist party is a supporter of a racist state.
He was also heavily financially backed by pro Israeli lobbyists, something he chose to keep secret until after the leadership election. This isn't anti-Semitic conspiracy theory it's just a fact.
Or that he employed a former Israeli intelligence officer from a unit known for blackmailing Palestinians to run his social media strategy.
I'm torn between not caring about your obsession with Israeli in this thread... and wanting scream at you for being such a useful example of the UK Left's problems... but carry on.
Ok cool you don't care. Did you say the same about S Africa in the 80s?
for being such a useful example of the UK Left’s problems…
For many people on the left supporting apartheid is kind of a major no no. And we are the problem? Right.
Did you say the same about S Africa in the 80s?
No. And I care deeply about the horrors being done by an expansionist Israeli regime. Get this subject the **** away from this thread though, please. I'd be most grateful.