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Labour need to be a party for the people of the UK to oust the Tories
What does that even mean? Their current plan seems to be to have no plan for anything, and hope they get voted in because everyone's fed up with the Tories. It may well work, but some of us are interested in what happens on day two.
What does that even mean?
It means that “full throated support” from those of us on the left is not enough to win an election… listening to, and tailoring your offering to, the voters (remember them) is essential.
And, yes, individual policies which most of us here support (eg nationalisation of water) poll very well. That isn’t the same as people voting with that in mind once they’re in the ballet box. Maddening though that is. Moderating policies left right and centre is demoralising to motivated supporters of Labour (and those outside it who want the UK to move to the left fast, or at least be much more progressive)… but most people in the UK aren’t like us. And they vote as well.
Labour need to be a party for the people of the UK to oust the Tories
But not one with good ideas or policies.
I like how you've distilled them to this whilst constantly defending all the ideas that have now gone or have been modified.
You must be slightly disappointed?
That what this thread is. And it's not on our backs - it's on his.
It means that “full throated support” from those of us on the left is not enough to win an election… listening to, and tailoring your offering to, the voters (remember them) is essential.
I see. So they should offer policies that are popular with the electorate? I completely agree. Perhaps you should tell Mr Starmer.
I think Starmer has a very good idea what platform he needs to stand on to win, from the work his team did after he became leader (boo, hiss… focus groups and listening exercises)… better than any one posting here.
Day two? Yes, that’s the biggy, isn’t it. But you need to win on day one first.
As it happens, I don’t expect anything much to cheer about ‘till after year two. I’m very pessimistic about the speed any useful results will appear, sadly. I don’t see any fast fixes. A parliament of hard boring slog is ahead for the next government.
I think Starmer has a very good idea what platform he needs to stand on to win, from the work his team did after he became leader (boo, hiss… focus groups and listening exercises)… better than any one posting here.
Does that include reneging on everything he promised when he stood for leader? How about multiple u-turns on a flagship policy that was very popular with voters? Or an anti-semitism row over his hand picked candidate?
I'm afraid there's very little evidence to support your view, beyond dissatisfaction with the Tories.
Does that include reneging on everything he promised when he stood for leader?
I think much of what he stood for as leader evaporated when they made the effort to find out how the voters, not the members, reacted to them. Getting members to go along with where he has moved to (and moved Labour to) in the years since is going to be hard for him… he’ll need more along the lines of the publicly owned energy company he announced at conference if he wants members to put the graft in come the election. Let’s see what’s in the manifesto; it will need to offer far more to members than what the party is currently presenting to the public.
I think Starmer has a very good idea what platform he needs to stand on to win, from the work his team did after he became leader (boo, hiss… focus groups and listening exercises)… better than any one posting here
Starmer's wobbly platform is one of Conservatism. So yeah I'd agree.
It's easy to be a Conservative and win.
This is so depressingly obvious.
I think much of what he stood for as leader evaporated when they made the effort to find out how the voters, not the members, reacted to them
So you agree that he lied to the membership to win the leadership election. A pity then, that he followed up with absolutely nothing except public dithering.
Starmer’s wobbly platform is one of Conservatism. So yeah I’d agree.
I agree his instincts are small c conservative but beyond that I don't think there's any kind of vision or platform.
It’s easy to be a Conservative and win.
Label it how you see fit.
Getting people who have voted Conservative before to now vote Labour is part of his job. In my opinion they can be reached without being a carbon copy of the Conservative Party (and I don’t think that Labour is, we’re not going to agree on that kind of “Red Tory” line I’m afraid… no matter how much you repeat it).
So you agree that he lied to the membership to win the leadership election.
I agree that we he said in 2019 does not match what he says now. As it happens, my opinion is that he probably knew he would have to shift position before a general election. Did he know for sure how, and by how much? I don’t know. How much is movement based on listening to the voters, how much is movement based on circumstances (there have been many “events” hitting us in that period) and how much was expected and planned before he stood to be leader… I don’t know… I think I’d have to know to decide whether he was lying. He has ditched many things he said back in 2019, that’s for sure. But do we really want a 2024 election fought on 2019 positions?
I agree that we he said in 2019 does not match what he says now.
He also says he took decisive action over Azhar Ali.
I would say it’s Labour that’s changed towards Conservatism that’s brought about that one.
We can agree on that being a problem.
But I wouldn’t expect the political confusion of the Centrist mind to see the long term damage they’re encouraging either.
I don’t care if you are left or right, that kind of arrogant condescension ain't going to win any support or votes.
Starmer has little interest in what the voters actually want; this is patently obvious with his refusal to back calls for a ceasefire in Gaza. Or for nationalisation of stuff like transport, energy, water etc. Or for protecting the NHS. Starmer is only interested in what gets him into power. He'll have it all mapped out; his rise to become PM, then whatever he can achieve for corporate interests, then to line his own nest once he retires from politics. Just like Blair.
I suspect he could be more Brown than Blair post government… if he ever gets to that point… we’ll see…
I suspect he could be more Brown than Blair post government
He certainly doesn't have Blair's political instincts.
I think Starmer has a very good idea what platform he needs to stand on to win
LOL I can't believe that someone actually posted that comment! 🤣
Sir Kier Starmer's U-turns has become the stuff of legends!
27 U-turns so far:
https://www.politico.eu/article/keir-starmer-labour-party-uk-election-u-turns/
Where he stands next week might be completely different to where he stands today.
U-turns have always been associated with governing parties, not opposition parties. A U-turn is generally the result of a failed government policy since opposition parties don't have the opportunity to implement their policies they are not normally expected to perform U-turns.
Starmer has managed to change that and people now seem to expect it from a Labour opposition.
And let's be clear what a U-turn is - it is doing the opposite to what was previously intended, a U-turn is maneuvering to go in the opposite direction. It isn't about simply adjusting or tweaking your policy.
I don’t care if you are left or right, that kind of arrogant condescension ain’t going to win any support or votes.
I think Kelvin set the tone this evening:
Ooo… should we do the “I’m more left than you” dance… or the “everyone else is a centrist” one… paired with “now I’ve called you a centrist, I really mean right wing”…
He’ll have it all mapped out; his rise to become PM, then whatever he can achieve for corporate interests, then to line his own nest once he retires from politics. Just like Blair.
That odious creep Mandleson has his grubby fingers all over Starmer and his policies, not to mention Alister Campbell and his shenanigans
So another candidate gone after being anti-semitic critical of Israel. How many is he going to have left come election day?
Saw Starmer on the news earlier and a reporter asked him ‘who should labour voters vote for in Rochdale’? He didn’t answer. Any labour leader who can’t answer that simple question shouldn’t be the leader.
Sir Kier Starmer’s U-turns has become the stuff of legends!
27 U-turns so far:
And that will brought up by tory election campaign every 10 minutes, which is exactly what I would do if I was in the tory party.
How much that gets to undermine anything he says and how much that sows doubt into potential Labour voters minds who knows but it is going to have some impact.
The other problem is that Starmer is not very good at dealing with anything publicly and always looks caught out/unsure which is not going to help matters on this one.
Is there anything else left to u-turn on?
There's not even anything out there that I can see.
Total despair.
Is there anything else left to u-turn on?
All that is left now is to u turn on the u turns which would actually be a positive outcome.
The other problem is that Starmer is not very good at dealing with anything publicly and always looks caught out/unsure which is not going to help matters on this one.
IMO that is because he relies very heavily on advice, which is why he often comments long after events occur.
As I have repeatedly suggested Starmer is very much the lawyer who is instructed by his client - he needs to consult with people. It also explains why he argues in favour of stuff which he clearly doesn't believe in.
None of that is particularly obvious, or that important, in the case of leader of the Opposition, but it will be a huge problem and his undoing imo when he is Prime Minister. PMs need to think of their feet and respond quickly to fast moving and unpredictable events.
Starmer is going to so regret being PM.
His comment came after the one I quoted, which kind of sums up the petty point scoring that this thread has become.
You see I think threads are just reflections of external factors. No point losing any more sleep than necessary.
Starmer could do something remotely positive and we wouldn't need down that path. Each and every move has been regressive. Thus provokes a pretty strong rejection.
Like I say I'm motivated by disappointment and lack of opportunity for change which can easily be part of winning an election too. Unlike the Sunak thread where constant shock and horror is apparently solved by being a grown-up - whatever that means, this thread at least points to many ways Starmer could still win and offer up better solutions.
He just chooses not to take them, often backed up with lies and misinformation.
Starmer is going to so regret being PM.
Not half as much as we’ll all regret the Tories sneaking back in.
Starmer could do a better job?
I think the hope is he couldn't do a worse job.
Not half as much as we’ll all regret the Tories sneaking back in.
Depending on how badly the Tories do in the next general election it won't necessarily be them who will benefit "if" Starmer fails to satisfy the electorate.
Reform UK are undoubtedly looking at the bigger picture and the Left will almost certainly give up believing that Labour is a vehicle for change.
The left have been forced to start organising as the result of expulsions and Labour support for a genocidal far-right government but its time hasn't come yet.
In the Sunak thread, Sunak was described as "every relationship is transactional" that is exactly how I view Starmer now.
When brexit was still not finalised under Corbyn, he played those of us who wanted to stay in the EU, he saw how that would be popular inside the party. During the leadership campaign he pretended to be more progressive and appeal to the party membership, now we know he clearly has no progressive principles, it was just part of the game to climb another rung on the ladder. The one big policy announcement made after the election, to entice in the progressive voters has now been abandoned.
I could kind of understand when just a few policies fell by the wayside, his supporters still defended him, but it is no longer about individual policies, he is indicating a clear policy direction, and it has **** all to do with supporting the majority of the uk population. He has now moved on to the oligarchs and the "masters of the universe", he knows the tories are currently so despised he doesn't really need to appeal to the voters any more, he has now moved onto the next transaction.
He is exactly the same as Boris and Sunak, they are all sociopaths who think ruling is their right, but Starmer will be more damaging in the long run because he is hollowing out the political party that could actually change things and improve peoples lives.
Very well put.
Good clear piece MSP.
I just can't get my head around why this is a favourable direction over getting stuff fixed (beyond the reform/regulation/efficiency pseudo capitalist supporting claptrap.)
I bang on and on about it but there is no shortage of strong anti-conservative problem solving arguments to be made.
but Starmer will be more damaging in the long run because he is hollowing out the political party that could actually change things and improve peoples lives.
This.
Good insights MSP. I think he often looks like a dithering rabbit in the headlights as he sort of makes a decision then he gets a quiet word in the ear and he has to change it. He doesn't come across as being his own man.
This seems like an ideal moment to give up on FPTP thinking. It's all very well to "keep the Tories out" but the alternative is what we see - a ghost of a Labour party. Voting for your conscience does have an effect - look at UKIP and the Reform parties, and if more people see that they aren't obliged to vote "tactically" then we might see a snowball effect where the political system is not just a closed shop. Or then again, we might not - but surely it's worth a try? What have we got to lose?
Yep, let's do it - when does it start?
when does it start?
So now there are calls for labour to suspend any councillor at the meeting with Azhar Ali because they failed to 'call him out' on his anti-Israel views. What are they going to do suspend every single MP, councillor and member of the party who doesn't like what's going on in Gaza? There won't be much of a party left. 🙄
These witch hunts will no doubt go after Boris Johnson for describing Jewish oligarchs who run the media amongst other tropes, I imagine the editors of these papers have a trove of possible stories that will be dribbled out as we get ever closer to the election. It’s no wonder the Tory party and the Labour Party cozy up and suck the boaby of the owners of these papers, burn the ****ing lot to the ground is my solution.
It's amazing how the horror of people dying and having their lives torn apart seems to be of much less importance whilst all this stuff goes on.
(I know two things can be valid at the same time.)
Another one of those outliers.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1757743150766968845?t=pjyOZXUKr2G-B16hu2XFvA&s=19
These witch hunts will no doubt go after Boris Johnson for describing Jewish oligarchs who run the media amongst other tropes,
Oh, there's nothing fair about it, and of course it's all about political opportunity rather than actual concern about racism. But Starmer weaponised the same issue when it suited him, so what goes around...
But Starmer weaponised the same issue when it suited him, so what goes around…
Whoa hold on, Im not defending starmer in any way possible, 5 or 6 years ago I thought he was alright but over the past couple of years I’ve come to realise he’s just as much of an opportunistic shape shifting **** as the rest of them