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Most? I count about five of you 😁
There is life outside STW. Shockingly.
"People" does not necessarily mean STWers.
So add one more person who believes that he is staunchly following the Tory agenda, Sir Keir Starmer himself:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-government-spending-b2376121.html
Starmer says he’s happy to be branded a ‘fiscal conservative’ as he refuses to commit to greater public spending
IMO you are only accepting his rhetoric while ignoring the reality of action.
I had no idea that Boris Johnson had ever claimed that he had moved the Tory Party to the left. When did he do that?
The tories moved to the left in in some ways economically, by screwing the economy to such an extent that they had no choice but to spend massively even while trying to slash spending - the bills went up and the tax receipts went down even as the tax rates increased, roughly speaking. But they also moved to the far right socially.
There is life outside STW. Shockingly.
I reckon the main reason Boris Johnson is so hated on here is that he was so popular with normal people. The sort of people many on this forum sneer at and look down on. Obviously you won't find those people on here, because they can't afford 5k bikes, campervans or expensive watches, so it reinforces the elitist prejudice that is openly on display on this forum.
Feeling a bit chippy this morning daz?
No just amazed at the pro-austerity consensus on here. I guess it's easy to be ambivalent about it when it doesn't affect you. 🤷♂️
I think what we've learned from this thread is that the most important thing is that the right team wins.
What this team does once it's running the country is irrelevant.
think what we’ve learned from this thread is that the most important thing is that the right team wins.
What this team does once it’s running the country is irrelevant.
You keep repeating this, so I acknowledge that it is your opinion. But Labour will run the country differently to the Tories. It's really not irrelevant and nothing to do with supporting a team, as other have said.
Pro-austerity consensus?
If, by that, you refer to the majority on STW and generally who don't understand or don't believe in MMT I think that's a wrong assessment.
If that isn't what you're referring to, some explanation would be helpful.
The majority of the population, inc STW, have been affected to varying degrees by austerity.
I think what we’ve learned is that the most important thing is that the Uniparty doesn't win.
"I reckon the main reason Boris Johnson is so hated on here is that he was so popular with normal people"
As far as I'm concerned,you could not be more wrong on this.
I detest Boris because of who he is, the opportunities he had and the way he abused and debased those opportunities to the detriment of my country.
I would absolutely love to have had a charismatic young(ish) leader with a ready wit who was adored by his public with a genuine desire to help the poorest in our society, whilst also believing in actually levelling up the whole country and promoting us as a shining example of a working democracy for the whole world - who ******* wouldn't?
If, by that, you refer to the majority on STW and generally who don’t understand or don’t believe in MMT I think that’s a wrong assessment.
No I'm talking mostly about the fact that the majority on here support establishment politicians like Starmer and Sunak who spend all their time telling us that the UK govt cannot afford to do things that would benefit normal people. When someone like Johnson* or Corbyn comes along they're derided as fantasists or dangerous (see almost all of Binners' posts for example). Part of this is a non-understanding (or wilful ignorance) of how govt finances work which is related to the MMT thing but mostly it's just people swallowing the lie that the UK govt is powerless to change things for the better.
* I'm not arguing that Johnson would have done all the things he claimed BTW, it was clearly just PR to make himself popular, but at the very least he didn't promote the lie that there was no money, and that's quite unusual for a modern day politician.
Since 2016 the public have been promised the earth by politicians, and been made to eat dirt.
If Starmer makes promises for the first few years of a possible Labour government that are undeliverable in that timescale, then at best any Labour government will find the following election much tougher to fight, at worst he won’t be believed and support for Labour will collapse before this upcoming election, and the Tories might sneak it again and a desperate period of unbroken Tory led rule continues for the UK.
MMT is relevant when it comes to running the country. If you think it’s hugely relevant to winning a General Election, well…
As is pointed out time and time again, governments already use MMT, but it doesn’t remove the need to address taxation, revenue, trade, currency issues when looking at spending. This is more true for Labour than the Tories, because of how the media (and the public) have historically treated the two parties… frustrating as that is, it needs to be addressed when it comes to campaigning and messaging.
Daz, there are no viable alternatives to 'establishment politicians' as you refer to them.
Corbyn may have been but his past in the form of voting history, policy statements and overt support for various causes made him an unmissable target for the tories, murdoch and rothermere/dacre.
I can't think of a single MP outside of minority parties who has even hinted at doing politics differently.
Neither labour nor tories in their present guises tolerate dissent - and that won't change anytime soon.
I reckon the main reason Boris Johnson is so hated on here is that he was so popular with normal people. The sort of people many on this forum sneer at and look down on.
Not at all, I can spot a lazy, narcissistic bully and that's what he was. If he had delivered more for 'the man on the Clapham Omnibus' rather conducting a smash and grab on the public purse for his mates I may have felt better disposed to him.
From the moment he won Cameron's Opinion poll we were boned due to his lazy venality.
I assume you include the SNP in"minority parties"?
the SNP who as the scottish government with extremely limited tax raising powers that on their fixed budget have managed to do things that are according to Starmer are unaffordable for a government that has borrowing opportunities and tax raising powers
Things such as ameliorating the 2 child benefit limit and many more examples
tj - as I'm sure you understand, my use of the term 'minority parties' refers to those who will never lead a UK government.
Before anyone refers to the LDs in coalition they were the very junior partner and could, in no way, be described as having led that government.
The future Labour government will unequivocally not take any policy leads from the SNP - unless Starmer is an STW member and has been converted by any posts on the forum.
And there is a u-turn on right to roam.
I’ve been a Labour voter, sometime member and candidate all my adult life, but this u turn on right to roam is pretty much the last straw. I’m strongly considering going for the Greens. I just cannot see the point of voting Labour again if all they’re promising is to maintain the status quo because they’re afraid of rich people and landowners.
I’m strongly considering going for the Greens. I just cannot see the point of voting Labour again if all they’re promising is to maintain the status quo because they’re afraid of rich people and landowners.
That is what I did after Corbyn went as I imagined it being more like it is now but have to admit to not thinking Starmer would be this pointless. The Green Party are much closer aligned to what Labour should be like but unfortunately they will never have more than 1 MP so a wasted vote other than when showing overall voting numbers.
Still looks like he will get elected so so will have at least got a semblance of a Labour Party into power which through gritted teeth I would take over the tory party.
unfortunately they will never have more than 1 MP so a wasted vote
UKIP votes weren't wasted. They dragged the Tories (and by extension Labour) so far to the right that old UKIP and current Tories are indistinguishable.
A wasted vote would be a vote for a party whose policies you disagree with. Once they have your vote there is no reason for them to chase you by adopting your issues.
Vote Green and let Labour come chasing after your vote.
Vote Green and let Labour come chasing after your vote.
That is exactly what I do. Doesn't seem to be working well though does it...
Voting green is just wasting votes, they are a party that will never gain power, so can promise the world without ever having to do anything, the Lib Dems learnt that the hard way in their brief partnership with the tories, they found out there's a world of difference between pledging and implementing.
Next election i'll vote Lib Dems, only due to them being the credible opposition down here to the tory MP in situ, as for Labour pledges and so on, we're a long way off them being in any shape to start implementing, and we've been in a centre right / right government for a while now, you don't just sharply move over, most governments need 2 to 3 terms to actually make real change.
That is exactly what I do. Doesn’t seem to be working well though does it…
And me. But it never will while we have FTTP and Labour as ToryLite™.
That is exactly what I do. Doesn’t seem to be working well though does it…
I think smart people need to start voting like stupid people.
Only stupid people voted for UKIP because they were never going to get any seats and votes for them were simply thrown away. Stupid people were too stupid to understand FPTP so they didn't care. They were voting for what they believed in.
Smart people don't waste their votes. They put their vote where it is most likely to make a difference because otherwise the Tories will get in. They understand FPTP because they are so smart.
The result of this is that Labour and the Tories have been chasing the Stupid Vote for years now. And here we are.
Maybe if more smart people took a look at why the Stupid Vote has been so important they'll start to realise that the most important thing isn't that the Tories don't get in but that Labour (and by extension the Tories) are dragged to the Left.
. I just cannot see the point of voting Labour again if all they’re promising is to maintain the status quo because they’re afraid of rich people and landowners.
You are probably misunderstanding Starmer, I very much doubt that he is afraid of rich people and landowners.
With a persistent and now long-established huge Labour lead over the Tories, and two by-elections last week yet again confirming a massive collapse in Tory support, Labour isn't so desperate that Starmer has to court the Countryside Alliance.
And yet that is exactly what Starmer is doing. Despite the fact that he is obviously smart enough to know that the 100,000 members of the Countryside Alliance, plus their supporters, will always demographically represent some of the most committed Tory voters in the UK. He really doesn't need them to become PM.
For Keir Starmer the Labour Party is merely a vehicle for his personal quest to become Prime Minister, not a vehicle for radical change. The significance of him securing the highest office in the land will no doubt be similar to him, as a radical left-wing barrister, becoming DDP.
Starmer is fairly unique in breaking promises and preforming u-turns before even winning a general election, that always invariably happens after an election victory. But IMO he knows too well that winning the general election will signal the beginning of his problems, the shit will really hit the fan when he fails to deliver. This is expectation management.
Remember all these u-turns concern promises which he made when it was less certain that Labour would win the next general election. As it becomes more and more likely that Labour will win the next general election he is ditching them because he no longer feels that they are necessary, not, imo, the reverse.
Edit: I think there is probably a strong case for voting Labour at the next general election.
A tiny Labour majority will let Starmer off the hook, he would be able to claim that his hands were tied, that he would have to tread very carefully, and that he didn't have a strong mandate for radical change.
A huge Labour majority, of say two hundred plus, would be an absolute nightmare for the Tories as not only would it take them at least two general elections to recover, but they would lose many of their big guns. It was also imo increase the likelihood of them squabbling and possibly splitting with one faction gravitating towards a Nigel Farage leadership.
A huge labour majority would also be a nightmare for Starmer. Expectations on delivering change would also be obviously much higher, as would be maintaining tight discipline.
Expectations on delivering change would also be obviously much higher, as would be maintaining tight discipline.
Thats why they are doing their best to control candidate selection. Its a lot easier to maintain discipline if the people are already are inclined to agree with you.
His mandate for radical change is already undermined by the fact he has backed off on anything which was even a
mild change.
Its hard to claim you have a mandate if you didnt campaign for it.
Smart people don’t waste their votes. They put their vote where it is most likely to make a difference because otherwise the Tories will get in. They understand FPTP because they are so smart.
Whether smart or stupid makes no difference in my constituency.
Tory 64%
LibDem 15%
Labour 13%
Green 8%
I vote Green so am in that 8% and voting like a stupid person in your terms but as you can see even if the 3 tory alternatives all joined together they would still lose by a significant amount.
voting like a stupid person in your terms
I'm not sure it's my terms, it's closer to the terms of people who like to say things like, 'If you vote for anyone other than Labour you're voting Tory.'
The implication is always that if you live in a marginal constituency and you don't vote to get the Tories out you are a wasted vote. People who live in marginal constituencies are pretty much the only ones who can influence Labour policy. Withhold your vote until they give you something to actually vote for.
But yes, smart people don't think that way so that is why Starmer can safely ignore them because he knows he has their vote already.
And just to emphasis that Starmer's stances are not necessarily motivated by the need to chase votes:
There are nearly 4 million Muslims in England and Wales and 79% (iirc) vote Labour, pissing them off if you believe that the next general election is on an knife edge is not a smart move.
Sure Starmer is now desperately trying to backtrack because weirdly he didn't expect the current backlash to his claim that Israel had the right to cut off water, a war crime, as he now lies and pretends that he meant something else.
But that seems to be because of the crisis within the Labour Party caused by so many Labour councillors resigning, rather than because he attaches a great deal of value to the Muslim vote.
Presumably he feels that he can well afford to lose some support from the Muslim community.
Sure Starmer is now desperately trying to backtrack because weirdly he didn’t expect the current backlash to his claim that Israel had the right to cut off water, a war crime, as he now lies and pretends that he meant something else.
Careful. You mentioned the I word.
Oh I think you are allowed to mention Israel, it is just opinions concerning the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict that aren't allowed.
I just make observations and reference news articles without criticising either side.
it is just opinions concerning the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict that aren’t allowed.
Yeah. All part of the omerta. If someone doesn't like what you think or say, they just ensure you can't be heard. It's really quite pathetic and not what I expect of this place. 🤐
Well I have said previously there might be some commercial considerations at stake, although political diversity isn't hugely welcomed here.
Also the Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the UK has been under continuous cyber attack recently, it was a nightmare trying to load events pages yesterday. And it was hacked last week, which has been reported to the police.
I can understand the fear of being hacked might be an issue for stw, for obvious reasons.
The implication is always that if you live in a marginal constituency and you don’t vote to get the Tories out you are a wasted vote. People who live in marginal constituencies are pretty much the only ones who can influence Labour policy. Withhold your vote until they give you something to actually vote for.
You mean keep those constituencies voting in Tory governments? To move politics leftwards? How's that been working out?
But yes, smart people don’t think that way so that is why Starmer can safely ignore them because he knows he has their vote already.
Fair. I'm smart and he does indeed have my vote. I think you're going to have to do a bit more work on your case for stupidity as the way forward.
(And yeah crazy not to be able to discuss the biggest news story of the day, on which feeling may be high but I doubt opinions can be all that divergent.)
You mean keep those constituencies voting in Tory governments? To move politics leftwards? How’s that been working out?
Well we tried for voting for a right leaning labour party. Hows that been working out?
I think you are going to have to do more work to justify voting for someone who has been steadfastly purging the left and courting the tories as being a good idea.
Its a shame really. I think he would have made a good tory leader to pull them back from the hard right but sadly his plan seems to be after the right handed over their party to the loonies to give them labour in compensation.
You mean keep those constituencies voting in Tory governments? To move politics leftwards? How’s that been working out?
It's been working very well to keep the country moving rightwards and evermore populist. In the recent by elections, Reform got a lot more votes than the Greens. In both by elections the Reform vote would have been enough to overturn the Labour majority.
Which way do you think that is going to drag Tory policy (and by extension Labour policy)?
By unconditionally voting Labour you are condemning the country to drift ever rightward and towards more and more extreme populism.
Or someone who shares your view needs to start a more left leaning party to pull politics to the left. The labour party that fought the last two general elections were either too far left, too undisciplined/too broad a church, or a combination of both. Labour could have tried the same approach at the next election but there is a saying about repeating experiments.
Political parties will go where the votes are.
It sounds too simple for our world of FPTP, marginal seats, 4d chess policy decisions, and Schrodinger's announcements but I think people would be best served by just looking at the manifestos and decide which party's policies most closely resemble their own opinions. Or better yet, the party whose views are more extreme than yours, given that no party can ever deliver everything it promises.
It doesn't require everyone to do this but the numbers are probably lower than you think. The absolute peak UKIP vote was 12.5% and that was enough to get a referendum called to stem the flow of voters from the Tories and you know the rest.
Starmer well knows that anything perceived to be anti-semetic will be leapt upon, you only have to look at the mess corbyn got Labour into at the last GE to see what that can do to your popularity
Accusations of anti-semitism may have been used as a stick to beat Corbyn with but I haven't seen any evidence that anti-semitism is an issue at all for the vast majority of voters.
Anti-semitism was only made a high profile issue because Corbyn is critical of Israel and the right-wing of the Labour Party, who were more concerned about his radical policies which would have benefited ordinary working people, wanted an excuse to publicly criticise and attack him.
Starmer would have no problem at all if he was critical of Israel. Firstly the Parliamentary Labour Party aren't looking for an excuse to attack him.
Secondly the vast majority of voters couldn't give a monkeys about anti-semitism, they quite rightly don't see it as a huge problem in the UK, certainly not when compared to racism against Black and Asian people (Diane Abbott had the Labour whip removed for making that point)
And thirdly there would be zero possibility of Starmer being accused of being anti-semitic if he condemned Israel's behaviour and called for an immediate ceasefire - his wife is Jewish and he has agreed to have his children brought up as Jews.
It helped the a lot of the tory MPs and the tory voters wanted Brexit anyway. So taking your theory, once Labour are in power votes for Green Party will lead to Starmers Labour Party going towards the Green policies. Likewise he could go further right to ensure he keeps the votes of mild tories.
Not sure your theory really flies...
Or someone who shares your view needs to start a more left leaning party to pull politics to the left
And here we hit FPTP and why the centrists love it. Even if they then whine about the consequences of it and blame everyone but themselves.
Labour could have tried the same approach at the next election but there is a saying about repeating experiments.
Yes and we tried following the tories rightwards and look how ****ed our country is now. Care to explain how being tories but competent will work better this time round.
Likewise he could go further right to ensure he keeps the votes of mild tories
If he goes much more right it wont be the "mild" tories he is courting.
There also arent enough of them if people on the left stop voting for him.
Hence the increasing vocal accusations about "if you dont vote for starmer then you are voting tory". Which doesnt work too well given his courting of the tories but thats centrist logic for you.