Yes Corbyn was a useless leader (which can’t really be argued against) but the fact he was old is irrelevant.
If he had not been useless he wouldn't have been so easy to caricature. It is the uselessness that opens the door to the other stuff. Dithering because he knew his position was at odds with his party and much of his base support made it easy to portray him as a decrepit old buffer.
One of the few clever bits of De Pfeffel's character construct 'Boris' is that his dithering and chuntering and often incoherence has been caricatured as a sort of chaotic yet scholarly brilliance. A sort of maverick genius who needs reining in from time to time. Many easily led people hold this view of him. Actually it is due to his utter disregard for detail and hard work. And that his blood is about 40% proof most of the time.
If the likes of ransos and daz stop venerating Grandpa as the messiah and realise that as a leader he was as if he had been teleported from 1973* into a strange world. Then I will shut up about him. He's not relevant now anyway (was he ever?).
*Sort of a reverse Life On Mars. With less laughs.
hilarious Monty Python image
It is difficult not to think of these when talking about Corbyn, Momentum and Labour.
Mainly because Corbyn, Momentum and Labour were the exact thing they were taking the piss out of. Different days, exact (precise) same issue.
There is another thread about Corbyn.
All these intelligent people swallow whole the media image/story presented to them -yet they know how biased the media is!
Back to Starmer - those who said he should be doing more - he met with farmers representatives and presented them with some ideas they liked. Building support.
Yes he is fairly old but not all old people require carers and not all old people piss themselves. Maybe I am just missing the joke but looks like you are just adding to the ageist bullshit with those comments and I would have thought they were written by Binners (the exclusion of a hilarious Monty Python image was the giveaway they were not)
Yes Corbyn was a useless leader (which can’t really be argued against) but the fact he was old is irrelevant.
What kerley said - dannyh your post was unacceptable and from what I recall not befitting of you.
In terms of Starmer - and speaking as someone who voted for Starmer I'm the leadership election.
What is happening now is pretty irrelevant as is a leader of an opposition when the Govt has an 80 majority and an election is 4 years away
He is going to have little influence on policy so he will see his main job as not doing anything to annoy the electors he needs
My worry with Starmer is that he is fine at looking quietly competent ( although he needs to stay away from the fake outrage he tried at PMQs yesterday - not his thing at all) but that will not be enough when the election comes. Covid will be over, Brexit will have played through and the Tories will have binned Johnson. It's gonna take more than quiet competence I fear
All these intelligent people swallow whole the media image/story presented to them -yet they know how biased the media is!
What is Johnson's majority again?
It doesn't matter if I know or don't know that a lot of the Grandpa stuff is a RW media construct. Corbyn left himself wide open due to his dogmatism and his euroscepticism.
It isn't me you would need to convince (as the election result showed in stark terms).
What kerley said – dannyh your post was unacceptable and from what I recall not befitting of you.
Probably. I shouldn't have risen to that bait.
Even the Graun started caricaturing Corbyn, though. I remember a very good cartoon portraying him as a tortoise (generally thought of as slow and old) just poking his nose out of the shell and just reaching a finish line (I think it was on a 2nd referendum). His colleagues were mostly already over the line practically dragging him there.
It’s gonna take more than quiet competence I fear
I agree totally, but competence is the difficult bit. The more 'imagey' and razzmatazz policy announcement stuff is easier. Johnson knows this.
Danny you've also swallowed whole the Boris media construct. And your old people post was not probably out of order but definitely out of order. Nobody baited you.
Even the Graun started caricaturing Corbyn, though.
What do you mean even the Graun? Given its political stance it was never going to be a fan of him. They arent a labour paper but a centre left/liberal one and so, like many centrists, wasnt overly keen on the idea of Labour actually being a left wing party since that would just leave them with the libdems.
They arent a labour paper but a centre left/liberal one and so, like many centrists, wasnt overly keen on the idea of Labour actually being a left wing party
He needs to appeal to those people. If he doesn't he can't win an election. What do you want?
Danny you’ve also swallowed whole the Boris media construct. And your old people post was not probably out of order but definitely out of order.
My post was definitely out of order. I apologise for the content. I know Corbyn is highly principled and consistent. His problem is that he is a useless politician and the things he chose to be principled about put him at odds with the support he needed to be electable.
Nobody baited you.
You had a long time to come up with a reply, and that’s the best you could manage?
You sure about that bit?
In opposition appearing competent is easy - just keep head down and don't say anything controversial - especially when the PM is a buffoon and their are an international and domestic crisis going on together.
Appealing to those of us who listen to PMQs and radio 4 doesn't win elections. Especially now.
Also, I'd like to see a bit of leadership from the he leader of my party on big issues - he's got time but he really need to up his game when we get towards an election
And don't think for one minute that the disinformation machine isn't already working - read the comments under an article on Starmer in the right wing press and you'll see the bullshit comments/narrative forming about Starner's time as DPP
you’ll see the bullshit comments/narrative forming about Starner’s time as DPP
Legal stuff tends to be on the record, though. And the narrative-formers won't have access to it.
I bet they'll play a game of accusing Starmer of hiding behind the necessary professional respect for confidentiality his former role requires.
Normally, of course, this line of attack would be beyond the pale, but this current rabble are already publicly advertising their disregard for decency as a a virtue.
BTW I've met Keir Starmer - had lunch with him (and about 15 other people) when he came to out constituency during the election. In that environment he's really engaging and thoughtful. I hope that can play through at a national level
I hope that can play through at a national level
I hope so too.
I am in my early forties, I have a degree (that I never really use on a practical level) and professional qualification for a sector I really don't enjoy, but these get me through the door of most interviews. I have a reasonable job with reasonable T's and C's. I don't find my work fulfilling, but I take pride in doing a decent job of things. I am married with two kids. My wife works in the NHS. I work in the private sector. We are comfortable but not rolling in money. I drive a shit old car because there are other things I like to spend my truly disposable income on. We cannot afford private education for the kids. I am post Final Salary pensions, so my 'pot' is likely to not be big enough for an average sized midday piss. But I have my health and a reasonable work-life balance. I tend to stay in jobs for more than five years because (I like to think) I am seen as competent, and I just want a 'quiet life'.
I am seriously disillusioned with the UK. The taxes taken from me are being pissed up the wall on a project that is going to make my and my family's life worse. Education is going to suffer as class sizes will creep upwards inexorably. My reasonably comfortable working life is going to come under attack from people who are desperate. Desperate to work 12 hour days so they can 'prove themselves'. To pledge their entire lives to 'the company' just to get in the door. The NHS will continue to be dragged from pillar to post and my wife will continue to feel like she is having the piss taken.
I am basically centrist, internationalist, and liberal in outlook.
There are tens of millions of 'me'.
Labour:
Give. Me. A. Political. Home.
You sure about that bit?
I am. If all you can come up with is the cliched, ageist bollocks I would expect from Binners, you can't have much in your locker. For someone who seems to pride themselves on the quality of their posts (to the extent of deriding those you disagree with) it's a very poor effort.
I am basically centrist, internationalist, and liberal in outlook.
There are tens of millions of ‘me’.
Labour:
Give. Me. A. Political. Home.
Agreed.
He needs to appeal to those people. If he doesn’t he can’t win an election. What do you want?
Sigh I was answering your comment about even the Guardian when it really wasnt unexpected that they would attack.
At least some of them were clear in their objective that they wanted to wipe out the Labour left and so turn the party once more into one which pandered just to them whilst treating the traditional voters as a free vote source. If that meant years of hard right government then so be it. These are the same people who then get confused about why people vote for brexit commenting about the elite and being ignored.
There are tens of millions of ‘me’.
Got some evidence for this? We are a minority as far as I can tell. Dont confuse the swing voters influence for actually being large numbers.
What will happen to the traditional labour voters. Where should they **** off to since their interests wont really overlap with ours.
Yeah this is the problem. There was a time that red and blue could take for granted large swathes of the electorate. This is becoming less the case especially for Labour who have to try and appeal across the range of the electorate including working class voters turned to the right with Brexit - I saw this coming and posted on it in other threads months ago before the election looking at example of eg NE Derbyshire and Mansfield in 2017 GE. But also younger voters with concerns about climate change, social justice etc that play against the populist narrative.
The bit that Labour probably need to worry about least ( in terms of votes)is socially liberal middle class voters, working in public sector or new industry white collar jobs (IT etc)
I think the way to do this is to show leadership and drive the agenda rather keep head down and play for competence to appeal to a middle class liberal audience (i.e. me!) that is increasingly less important in election terms . But it means being brave on stuff like climate change, child poverty, inequalities etc
I get that there is time for this and Covid is dominating everything at the moment - but Labour needs to start the ground work.
Starmer in the right wing press and you’ll see the bullshit comments/narrative forming about Starner’s time as DPP
Starmer is a much more difficult target for the Tory's hate press. OK, he's a lawyer, and everyone dislikes them, but actually his record (as other posters have already recognised) is pretty public spirited....and...well that's it. Corbyn was an easy target by comparison. I think the Labour front bench are doing the right thing. Johnson is desperate to have a rant about sovereignty and Britain standing alone, and breaking international treaties and all that nonsense, and as a lawyer they thought Stamer wouldn't be able to resist, and when Stamer just sidestepped it completely, It wound Johnson up so much he went on a rant that had even Tory MPs going "eh?"
"Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake" , said Napoleon.
This is becoming less the case especially for Labour who have to try and appeal across the range of the electorate including working class voters turned to the right with Brexit – I saw this coming and posted on it in other threads months ago before the election looking at example of eg NE Derbyshire and Mansfield in 2017 GE.
Exactly this. I can't find the link but I read that the overwhelming majority of Tory-held marginals were Leave-voting towns. Labour has a stranglehold on areas dominated by liberal/ left Remain-voting middle classes, but could come under pressure from any Lib Dem revival. Corbyn tried and failed to square that circle: it remains to be seen what Starmer will do.
Sigh I was answering your comment about even the Guardian when it really wasnt unexpected that they would attack.
If a Labour leader can't get himself nearly unequivocal support from the Guardian, where can they?
Socialist Worker?
Razzle?
olddog, you wrote...
but Labour needs to start the ground work.
I posted somewhere up there ^^^ that I have no doubt policies are being worked on behind the scenes and, where appropriate, discretely tested.
There is no need for any of them to be publicised yet.
As a lawyer, Starmer fully understands the importance of thorough preparation; the ground work is, undoubtedly, well underway.
Corbyn tried and failed to square that circle: it remains to be seen what Starmer will do.
with 4 years and an 80 seat majority, what Starmer can practically do is the square root of **** all. By the time Labour get anywhere near government, this shit-show will be neck deep and we'll all be damn near drowning.
Razzle?
What a hilarious comment. Are you going to come out with some childish shite about six forms next?
The Guardian is a centre left/liberal paper (with a smattering of more left and more right wing columnists).
So to gain the Guardian support you have to move away from the traditional Labour position.
This will gain you some votes and might even allow you to win three elections.
However when those traditional voters realise they no longer matter they start asking questions and start looking for alternatives and are open to voting for something which promises to change things. like brexit.
It also means since Labour then starts crowding the tories that the entire "centre" moves rightwards. So hard right positions become moderate right and so on. To see where this ends just look at the USA where anyone left of rabid rightwing is accused of communism.
What a hilarious comment.
Thanks!
Are you going to come out with some childish shite about six forms next?
But you won't get to be a prefect with language like that.
Anyway enough of this foreplay.
Do you want an electable Labour Party or not?
However when those traditional voters realise they no longer matter they start asking questions and start looking for alternatives and are open to voting for something which promises to change things. like brexit.
There's going to be four years of them getting screwed over at every turn. They won't vote Tory again. Whether they choose a period of reflection or go full fascist remains to be seen.
Do you want an electable Labour Party or not?
I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.
Thats leaving aside whether the centrists dream of making Labour dance to them again will actually work. Blair walked because he knew he had pushed it as far as he could. All the support he had got was evaporating so he went to cash the cheques and leave others to pay the piper.
Now it might work again but I have my doubts.
I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.
Thats leaving aside whether the centrists dream of making Labour dance to them again will actually work. Blair walked because he knew he had pushed it as far as he could. All the support he had got was evaporating so he went to cash the cheques and leave others to pay the piper.
Now it might work again but I have my doubts.
Ok, so that is a 'no', then.
Ta.
Have a nice weekend.
There’s going to be four years of them getting screwed over at every turn. They won’t vote Tory again.
It depends on how effective the propaganda is. Can already see this being spun up for blaming the EU and Starmer with his strong support for remain in the past will get spun as an internal saboteur. When combined with the fact people dont generally like admitting to self harm it will make it easy for the blame to be passed.
Covid could be a counter but outside of PMQ Starmer has been pretty much invisible and hasnt really challenged anything.
Ok, so that is a ‘no’, then.
sigh we are back to the primary school level of debate I see.
exactly this. I can’t find the link but I read that the overwhelming majority of Tory-held marginals were Leave-voting towns. Labour has a stranglehold on areas dominated by liberal/ left Remain-voting middle classes, but could come under pressure from any Lib Dem revival. Corbyn tried and failed to square that circle: it remains to be seen what Starmer will do.
He should do that by not fighting the referendum again. Policy of "constructive engagement / close alliance" with the EU slowly unveiled as the tories eff it all up
He should do that by not fighting the referendum again. Policy of “constructive engagement / close alliance” with the EU slowly unveiled as the tories eff it all up
This.
Thanks for saying it in about 300 less words than I could manage.
Wavering Leave voters have to be told they made an epic **** up, but it needs doing bit by bit, slowly and making sure it doesn't look like sabotage.
sigh we are back to the primary school level of debate I see.
Well if you are going to keep dodging the question by saying 'I want the entire world to change and come around to my views rather than adapt' then that is what you are going to get.
What is Johnson's majority again? Did he make gains?
Labour wasn't electable under Corbyn. The evidence speaks for itself.
Id recommend you all listen to the latest 'Remainiacs' podcast as it has the authors of 'Left Out: The Inside Story of Labour Under Corbyn" to talk about the infighting.
Some revelations like the party's left leaking a story to the Sun to undermine the party's Right
For someone who prefers to listen to the authors discuss the book's bullet points in a podcast rather than actually read a political book it's ideal 🙂
dannyh:
Anyway enough of this foreplay.
Do you want an electable Labour Party or not?
Well if you are going to keep dodging the question by saying ‘I want the entire world to change and come around to my views rather than adapt’ then that is what you are going to get.
To be fair though, it’s a pretty rubbish question when the only answer you’ll accept is a Labour lurch to the right to gain the necessary votes. You and others talk as if this will guarantee a win at the next election- but fail to acknowledge that some people won’t shift that far, they need more.
Also it’s a bit rich to complain the left won’t adapt, when the right of the Labour Party did all they could to undermine Corbyn et al.
How on Earth do you see,
want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.
as “wanting the entire world to change”?
want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.
If you think that is achievable in four years then you need to lay off of whatever you are on.
There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.
It's incredibly annoying when you try to rise above it and concentrate on winning an election.
The infighting comes from those that see their opinions and their brand of Labour politics as more important than the people who suffer from ongoing Tory govt. It's also a noisy minority of the party amplified through social media as well.
Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies - social and economic justice, climate change action - and winning an election.
as “wanting the entire world to change”?
The posters been active for quite a while now, I’d reasonably assume its cumulative rather than singular.
I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented. Not just the centrists.
How? What would you do to make this happen?
There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.
This. It's just crazy.
