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Posting the same picture over and over again and expecting different results?
I think he gets the results he is after.....
Remind me again how you define madness?
Not knowing when to stop bickering amongst yourselves in quite puerile and unpleasant ways, and then wondering why no one supports you at elections?
Both sides on here need to learn when to give up and move on.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/337cBl9c9QT1Ji34gLiVg B">Alexei Sayle podcast
Title of his first podcast is:
Keir Starmer: Establishment Tool.
So relevant 🙂
Is PMQs on tomorrow? I'll be disappointed if SKS doesn't open with "So, that oven ready deal......how's it going for you?"
Some might describe this as “learning the lesson of Gordon Brown’s bigoted woman comment”… or “listening to people’s legitimate concerns”… but I just find it utterly depressing, and a total abdication of responsibility by a political leader…
https://twitter.com/imincorrigible/status/1338412702994206720?s=21
I agree the the whole white replacement stuff is bollocks to anyone who has any understanding of the history of these isles.
Calling Gemma out as an "out and out racist" might not be the best way to change her views as polarization is the opposite of what we need.
I didn't hear the show so can't comment on the response but all mainstream politicians need one that cuts right through this tripe. It's not just a problem for SKS it's everyone's problem
Even if Starmer is not perfect - and IMO he is not. He is head and shoulders above any other candidate for a variety of reasons. Lammy is pretty good and probably the next best but unfortunately too tanned for the racists
It’s not just a problem for SKS it’s everyone’s problem
Agreed. But I brought up Starmer's total lack of an appropriate response in this thread... er... because... er... this thread is about him.
Lammy is pretty good and probably the next best
I'd argue he'd be better... but agree with you about why his hat wasn't even in the ring. Of those that put their names forward to be leader... they all impressed me in the leadership debates... including those I had reservations about before the leadership campaign. Starmer has very real short comings that he can't do much about though... and needs to use his colleagues more to fill the gaps he has in addressing the public... surprisingly (to me) Miliband is one asset being used well... Thornbury, Nandy and Raynor also cutting through. Some need to replaced though... many are fully across their brief but offer nothing in terms of winning over the public.... see Dodds for example. While it is depressing that Johnson team are campaigners first, ministers a distant second... and the Labour team would to a person make a better cabinet of ministers... there are lessons to be learnt from the Tories having salespeople not policypeople in all the key posts. That's where politics is right now.
“learning the lesson of Gordon Brown’s bigoted woman comment”
Actually I would say the problem with the Gordon brown bigoted women comment, was that she was making bigoted comments, and instead of explaining why they were bigoted comments he backed down and pandered to the bigoty.
That lesson has not been learnt, pandering to the bigots allowed the movement to grow.
That lesson has not been learnt, pandering to the bigots allowed the movement to grow.
I agree.
There's a timely article in the Guardian today on just this issue
For liberals, Brexit is a hard lesson in the politics of resentment
there are lessons to be learnt from the Tories having salespeople not policypeople in all the key posts. That’s where politics is right now.
I have been saying that for a long time. I would be running regular focus groups discussing the members of the shadow cabinet. Anyone that is not popular/not connecting to the voters for whatever reason goes and gets replace with someone who is/does. For example Dodds just needs to go.
Labour have a few years to get the right cabinet in place. It is not the policies that lost the last election for Labour and although Brexit was a major disruption that won't be there in 4 years time (in fact the country will be such a mess because of Brexit that it can be used to Labour's advantage)
For example Dodds just needs to go.
I agree.
She's far from the only one, but she has the biggest role, during the pandemic and the self inflected chaos of next year.
They’re basically a bunch of puerile, sanctimonious sixth formers
Yawn. Change the record FFS, it's extremely tedious.
Their only proposal was to have Rebecca Wrong-Daily as the ‘continuity Corbyn’ candidate
Funny that a sixth former such as myself voted for Starmer on account of RLB being the wrong candidate.
And who would you rather be at the lead?
Right now that's a tricky question after Rayner has shown her true careerist colours. Lammy or Lewis would probably be my preference, or even a return for Ed Miliband, who seems to have matured and held onto some of his radical reformist instincts.
That lesson has not been learnt, pandering to the bigots allowed the movement to grow.
Yet weirdly the people who have consistently and vociferously opposed and called out bigotry are those on the left who are dismissed as metropolitan elitist 6th formers.
his radical reformist instincts.
Like he reformed his father's will after he died?
Funny that a sixth former such as myself voted for Starmer on account of RLB being the wrong candidate.
She was the wrong candidate... but she really impressed me in the leadership debates, and I wish she was still in the shadow cabinet... but she holed her own hull.
Right now that’s a tricky question after Rayner has shown her true careerist colours.
Rayner has done her job. Well. I'm continually impressed with her political nouse.
Lammy or Lewis would probably be my preference, or even a return for Ed Miliband, who seems to have matured and held onto some of his radical reformist instincts.
Fingers crossed these three are in government one day. Lewis has a tendency to speak only to us lefties, and not the country though (lots of "overturn the neoliberal system" type language)... he shouldn't be near one of the big posts in my opinion, he's no where near ready... even though I so often agree with him.
big_n_daft
Free Member
his radical reformist instincts.Like he reformed his father’s will after he died?
DYOR
I did
The row centred on a house in Primrose Hill, where the Miliband family grew up.
When he died in 1994, Ralph Miliband originally left the house to his wife, Marion.
However, along with his mother and his brother, Mr Miliband agreed to rewrite his father’s will using a deed of variation.
Instead of the family home passing to his mother, each brother was given 20 percent of the asset.
In order to change a will in this way, all the people involved have to agree.
The deed of variation would ultimately reduce the tax on Mrs Miliband’s estate, as inheritance tax would only be paid on 60 percent of the asset rather than the whole value of the home.
And to keep it on topic
The then-Labour candidate and former DPP Keir Starmer admitted that Mr Miliband’s financial arrangements were “intended to reduce tax”, raising questions about the Labour leader's decision to attack tax “avoiders”.
Mr Starmer, who was the director of public prosecutions until 2013, said that people were more interested in “complicated, sophisticated tax avoidance schemes,” than Mr Miliband’s arrangements.
At the time, he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "People will take different views on deeds of variation and all forms of tax relief is in one sense intended to reduce tax."
Thing is, his Dad could have written his will splitting the property between wife & kids to minimise tax anyway so it’s not a massive tax swindle. Unlike Cameron’s old man using offshore investment in Panama.
Rayner has done her job. Well. I’m continually impressed with her political nouse.
Really? She has no political nous at all. Think back to her comments on Scotland. I think she is a complete liability.
BND I hate tax avoiders and even I think the above is OK!
The pickle Starmer is in in relation to the LBC caller and racism generally:
“We just have to look across to the Middle East,” the caller continued. “Israel has a state law that they are the only people in that country to have self-determination. Well why can’t I as a white British female have that same right?”
The trouble is that in a way she has a point - if an ethnonationalist state is something Starmer strongly supports in the case of Israel, then you can't exactly call someone a racist for wanting the same thing in this country.
I mean, I can, but he can't.
Sir Keir to the rescue. He has a cunning plan to save this wonderful, endearing, enduring political Union from those nasty separatists - a new commission on devolution to make it the bestest devolution in the world. Who could he possibly pick to lead such an important and far-reaching body? Why, Gordon Brown of course.
Does someone want to tell him it's not 2014 anymore?
On the one hand Brown batting for the Tories on indy helped sink labour in Scotland for probably a generation
But it was nice to see Labour making a case for the Union, the tories seem like they really wouldn't mind being shot of Scotland
But it was nice to see Labour making a case for the Union, the tories seem like they really wouldn’t mind being shot of Scotland
How? What act or omission are they doing?
I would expect that things will ramp up in the new year as hopefully covid and Brexit start to wane
Brown has spoken a lot of sense =- from a unionist perspective. Its a damn sight better than anything else from the branch office
Labour need a logically coherent position on devolution /the union / the UK. It doesn't really matter what it is but it has to have some foundation
Does someone want to tell him it’s not 2014 anymore?
This. A federal UK could have saved the union. I fear we’re beyond that now. And not just as regards Scotland. Other home nations don’t just mistrust Westminster politicians, they mistrust the English voters to consider their interests when they vote. The signs are there that only a minority of English voters give a damn about what happens in Scotland or Northern Ireland in particular.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1341332432344244224?s=19
No real opposition.
Fag package difference on ideologies does not a difference make.
No ifs not buts Starmer.
I just do not get why Starmer wants to vote for a deal. I understand not restarting old arguments and accepting Brexit is done but abstaining must be right to make the tories own the deal
Lets hope he changes his mind 'cos i think he is making a major blunder here
The vote (and debate) is meaningless. The Government already has the means to pass this into legislation without a Commons vote. The best tactic would therefore be to boycott the whole sham.
I agree with both of you. I want to see the Labour Party leave the Tory Party to own their poor deal. But, then, we all think Brexit is the beginning of a new further to the right Britain… this choice isn’t being made with us in mind… if Starmer wants to win the next election (I still don’t think he’s the man for that, but that’s by and by) many think that he needs to be seen to be acting in support of a deal, while beginning the process of explaining how it should be improved upon in four years time. He needs his MPs to vote to accept a bad deal, and push for a better one… to abstain now will push many voters into the arms of the Tory Party… they will accept the erosion of their rights and opportunities, if they can be made to see the Labour Party as being anti-British and abstaining on the biggest votes.
Hmmm - maybe thats the logic but I do not buy it. It will kill labour in Scotland completely - "two cheeks of the same arse"!
I think it would be unrealistic for Labour to think that many of the 50 or so seats they need to gain at the next general election will be in Scotland. I know they’re back to pushing the federal angle… but Scotland is on a path now… and Labour aren’t part of it. Targeting regional English and Welsh seats is their real focus. For what it’s worth, the SNP are, again, taking the route I would like to see Labour take… that is, make it clear that this thin one sided deal is a Tory deal, and refuse to support it… but I can see the logic in Labour’s approach as regards the voters they are targeting.
That’s a very good and complete Twitter thread scotroutes. Now, how many voters (south of the Border) that voted Tory at the last election, or didn’t vote at all, and Labour need to win over… would read or understand more than one or two posts in something like that? Politics today is more complicated than ever, but needs to be carried out in a way that looks simple. The Tories get this. Labour are trying to grasp it. Are they succeeding? Only partly. Does this mean that they aren’t taking the approach I would like? For sure.
An update on Rone’s post on the previous page…
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1341683569031299072?s=21
From Scotroutes tweet, Scottish Labour only really have one policy, slag off the SNP. It's no surprise that the same thing happens here. Probably looks odd to people outside of Scotland though.
An update on Kelvin's post above:
Labour should abstain. If they rubber stamp this shite deal the Tories and their mates in the fascist media will keep ramming it down their throats for evermore.
The 'deal' is marked 'trap' in big red letters.
TBH, the vote is marked "trap" in big red letters.
Indeed.
An update on Kelvin’s post above:
So gaining with all the polling companies?
Not sure it’ll last… getting an FTA should win Johnson back some of his waining support…… depends on how his “wait till it’s too late” coronavirus strategy keeps going down I suppose.
So gaining with all the polling companies?
Alternatively, behind in nearly all of the polls. Hopefully that'll change, but Starmer is not making me optimistic.
but Starmer is not making me optimistic
Me neither, but realistically, what the hell do we do about it...? 😕
I think we can safely say that Labour have given up on Scotland (and probably Northern Ireland) and are focusing all their efforts on the North of England.
That's the only explanation I can think of for supporting this deal.
I think he has no understanding of scottish politics and probably relies too much on the right wing idiot Ian Murray ( the man who preferred a tory westminster government to the SNP winning seats)
From Scotroutes tweet, Scottish Labour only really have one policy, slag off the SNP. It’s no surprise that the same thing happens here. Probably looks odd to people outside of Scotland though.
Every time that Leonard fella opens his nouth at FMQ, I cannot help myself but cringe. I'd be amazed if Starmer doesn't feel the same, as BruceWee says, they've given up on the northern branch.
So, according to some of the more vociferous left-wing Twitterers today, tomorrow at 4pm #starmerquits
Looks legit to me...
Worth remembering that these same people have been predicting a glorious socialist revolution in the UK for at least 50 years
Yeah, those same Twitterers are claiming that's as a result of the Starmer going reports...
Really? Are we allowed to call people who claim polls are influenced by rumours started after the polling was carried out “stupid”?
Anyway, he’s doing better than I expect polling wise at this point. Lots he isn’t doing that I’d like him to… but then he already has my vote nailed on… I’m not a target voter.
How do you say realpolitik in German?
Really? Are we allowed to call people who claim polls are influenced by rumours started after the polling was carried out “stupid”?
I don't see why not...
Really? Are we allowed to call people who claim polls are influenced by rumours started after the polling was carried out “stupid”?
I doubt many will be accusing them of being particularly astute
Most of those people on that Twitter feed are not allowed sharp craft knifes at play time. Unless I'm missing the ironic call by some to bring back that old fool who supported brexit by doing nothing at all to stop it.
Are we allowed to call people who claim polls are influenced by rumours started after the polling was carried out “stupid”?
Yes
Good to see you guys are really focussed on the positives SKS brings to the table and not just still endlessly whining about irrelevant socialist bogeymen and what they post on twitter. Keep it up!
I think Starmer made a massivve blunder in voting for the deal. However thats his only real mistake so far ( apart from keeping Nandy)
He’s not resigned then?
Who’d have thunk it?
Surely not?!?
He’s been (finally) addressing the national “lock down” we need, right now, to address the upcoming, largest, peak in the ongoing pandemic. About bloody time.
So, a rumour starts spreading about Starmer quitting.
Distraction?
According to the The Observer, the Tory gerrymandering plan is back on the cards. If true, the hill SKS has to climb may get significantly steeper...
Invisible Man.
He’s called today for a ‘circuit breaker’ national lockdown involving shutting the schools for another 2 weeks to try and get infections under control.
Guess what Boris will eventually end up being forced into doing, 3 weeks too late? As always
https://twitter.com/independent/status/1345757283029045250?s=21
Local councils, and unions, stood up to Boris and stopped schools opening tomorrow.
Then Mr irrelevant piggy backed on top of that after the event.
No government uturn on schools yet loum. Starmer is speaking up too late… but he’s given Johnson every second possible to do what obviously needs doing… and he still hasn’t. As for councils, too few are standing up to the government and it’s folly. Those that have, like Liverpool, deserve our total support.
So he lied during the leadership contest, cool.
Well that EU bombshell could change a few votes in 2024.
He is just telling the truth. do you really think the EU want to negotiate from scratch again - incremental change will be all thats available.
It would have been better tho to say " I want to go for FOM but I very much doubt its realistic" Still running scared of the right wing press and the racists IMO
One thing from that piece - he seems to be moving towards a constitutional convention which IMO is the only policy they can have for Scotland that makes any coherent sense for them
"I don’t think there is a case for re-joining the EU…that is not realistic"
We won’t be EU members again. Face it. We were given so many carve outs, and given so much special treatment, and still we stormed off in a huff. Damage done. Time to genuinely make UK policy more international again, including forging closer ties with the EU, and Norway, and Switzerland, and Iceland, and Turkey, through a series of formal agreements. Labour should make the case for FoM (as per Norway) eventually, but at least push for visa waivers for musicians and others who travel for work straight after the next election. Customs cooperation needs pushing as well… gold standard is to share in the common trade policy, but we are so far from that now, that any movement in that direction will help trade.
If course, NI and Scotland do have options to actually be in the EU again, and they should grab at those options… but that’s going to take much longer than many hope for, sadly.
I always used to vote for the person least likely to win so that they didn't lose their deposit.
Looks like I'm voting lib Dems again.
He is just telling the truth.
Which means he was lying when he ran for election.
What did he say that was a lie? You may well be right, but I’d like to know what was said, before joining in with throwing about accusations. If he said he would like us to become members again, or that we’d be in a better position if we did, or that he would vote to rejoin if ever given a chance… well… so would I. But the whole of the UK rejoining the EU isn’t realistic.
I don't know if you noticed but the odd thing has changed a bit since December 2019
But as we all know, pragmatism has no place in modern politics. You must shackle yourself to an ideology and stick to it no matter what happens, ignoring all evidence that doesn't suit your preferred narrative
I had wondered how his Remain supporting admirers would react to having their pants pulled down. Now I know.