Appeasing the far right on Brexit would not have helped
Jeez, we're back to comparisons with nazi germany again are we? Danny/saucemerlin will be along soon to join in. 🙄
Given the result in 2019 after Starmer's kamikaze 2nd referendum policy, and as Ernie says, given labour's lead in the polls and the apparent return of red wall voters to labour, I think we can safely say that labour are better off with a policy of accepting that brexit and the Europe issue is now settled. It would be electoral suicide to reopen it. Why do you think the right wing are straining every sinew to do just that?
The only way I can imagine Labour managing to screw things up now is by coming out with an idiotic policy along the lines of let’s have another EU referendum and start the whole rebate all over again.
Agree completely. Starmer has this right.
Bearing in mind the electoral consequences of calling for a second referendum had on Labour at the last general election
You mean increasing their standings in the polls? People so easily forget where Labour were in the polls when they were trying the "Labour Brexit" line, before switching to supporting a referendum on leaving with an exit deal and outline of our new relationship with the EU on the table.
But, of course, a "measure twice cut once" policy before leaving is nothing like having a rejoin policy now we have left. There's nothing to be gained in England in having that debate at the next election. That doesn't mean ignoring and not mitigating or improving the situation the UK is in now after leaving in the way we did.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
Yeah, i agree with all of what you said, particularly this bit, Brexit was that once in a lifetime event, i cannot see how we could ever role it back without costing us even more money in the long run, we lost all our privileges on exit, we won't get them back if we rejoin, we won't get any rebate, we'd be made to jump through hoop after hoop by the French as they do not want the UK as part of the EU again, i honestly can't see a way where us rejoining gets us into a better place.
The next decade will be huge across the EU as well, the longer Russia/Ukraine goes on, the more Russia starts turning off the pipelines and asking for countries to pick sides, it'll start driving a bigger wedge in the EU, and may well in turn open up a reorg that could benefit the UK, if we have a government that's not all about self interest or the interest of the few.
Jeez, we’re back to comparisons with nazi germany again are we?
Putin's Russia would be more relevant 😉. because it shows that if you give ground to nationalists it only embolden them
Given the result in 2019 after Starmer’s kamikaze 2nd referendum policy, and as Ernie says,
Conviniently ignoring that corbyns personal opinion polling was the worst on record and as much a factor in the result as Brexit....
The difference between now & then is that even red wall voters are starting to realise how badly Brexit has failed
It'll be after the next GE before the swing is big enough, but it will come
Do you really want to spend the next 20 years going on about brexit to the exclusion of all else even when you know rejoining isn’t going to happen? It’s a waste of time and energy.
In 20 years ( an awful lot less than that in rality IMO) Scotland will be independent and back in the EU.
but not in the real world.
Very few people are discussing Brexit in the real world.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
Scotland not the real world then? Because we have a party that are not cowards and are capable of telling the truth its very much not a dead topic her - and similarly amongst folk I know in England. Its discussed all the time
Appeasing the far right on Brexit would not have helped
Appeasing the far right is what Dazh, Enie and Starmer are doing with this weird pretense that Brexit is not the issue, that is unchangeable and that labour can make brexit work
You can try and wish away the consequences of Brexit, but they wont dissappear that easily
Apparently you just have to convince the electorate that the consequences are due to something else and somebody else's (preferably foreign) fault.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
funny thats not happening in Scotland? Weird isn't it that we can have a pro EU party leading the country, telling the truth about the brexit disaster and still with polling above any english party
so actually this is not an obvious fact. Indeed its neither obvious nor a fact as here we can see something differnt
appallingly low level of support for the LibDems, the only major party of recent government to support rejoining, I think we can safely dismiss that possibility.
Oh its that pariochial london centric view again. the SNP are in government, are unashamedly pro EU anti brexit and have a consistent piolling above any english party. Its almost as if being pro EU and to keep remuinding folk how the right have ****ed the country with brexit is a vote winner - if you have leaders prepared to lead.
we will still be discussing Brexit for some time.
On here, and shoehorned into every conceivable thread possible, not just the one dedicated to the subject, but not in the real world.
You can try and wish away the consequences of Brexit, but they wont dissappear that easily
It's not simply about what I want. It's the fact people are not still discussing Brexit. For example I can't remember the last time Brexit came up as a subject of causal chit-chat at a coffee stop.
But subjects like the ambulance service crisis, train strikes, extreme weather, and energy costs, are all topical.
Sure some people want to somehow connect Brexit with all those issues - I constantly see the tenuous links all the time on here, but if you offer rejoining the EU as the solution to everything no one is actually going to take you seriously, they won't even bother listening.
but if you offer rejoining the EU as the solution to everything no one is actually going to take you seriously, they won’t even bother listening.
Simply untrue Ernie - open your london centric parochial eyes and look to Scotland. the SNP are not cowards on this. They show leadership not appeasment and they quite rightly keep brexit and the EU in its rightful place in political discussion - central to it and have polling at around 50%.
The truth is that rejoining the EU is important to a great many folk. Its constantly discussed, its not a vote loser to do so.
the SNP are in government, are unashamedly pro EU anti brexit and have a consistent piolling above any english party
If you think that's what it's about I look forward to a SNP government ruling the UK in about 18 months time.
If rejoining was such a vote winner you can be absolutely sure that every single self-serving career politician, including Keir Starmer (to bring the thread back on topic) would be clambering to support it.
Why wouldn't they ffs?
Why wouldn’t they ffs?
Cowardice. Fear of the right wing press and poor tactics. Doing the opposite to the labour party has worked well for the SNP so obviously your arguement holds no water
Edit - its back to the labour party having been turned into a party of followers not leaders. Here the SNP provide leadership and are prepared to lead public opinion not follow it. Guess what - its a vote winner
Cowardice. Fear of the right wing press
The only reason a self-serving political careerist such as Starmer needs to fear the ring-wing press is if they scupper his electoral ambitions.
If having a second referendum to rejoin the EU is such a vote winner they obviously won't be able to do that.
Edit – its back to the labour party having been turned into a party of followers not leaders.
So now you are claiming that the Labour Party is following opinion rather than leading it. Which is obviously the complete opposite of what you were saying - you were claiming that Labour were ignoring public opinion.
In general not on this specific issue as regards the followers not leaders - on brexit they are not even following public opinion
Ernie - answer me this. If being pro EU is such a vote loser and no one wants to hear about this why are the SNP still polling so high?
I am not saying that "being pro EU is such a vote loser", I am saying that for most people outside Singletrackworld it is an issue of no or very little importance.
Which in part helps to explain why the LibDems level of support is still as incredibly low as it was before the referendum. Whilst support for the Brexit-supporting Labour Party is huge, in some cases about 50% of voters.
There are other more important issues which concern voters, despite the STW mantra that everything is Brexit's fault.
I am also saying that banging on about Brexit at every opportunity turns people off. Except maybe on here.
I am also saying that banging on about Brexit at every opportunity turns people off. Except maybe on here.
And in Scotland in general and also in the circles I am in brexit is a constant topic
We do not have that many nurses qualified but not working.
We do, I checked that before posting. Now you check before dissing. When you diss stuff the onus is on you prove you're right.
Over 20 000 nurses have left the profession evey year since 2016:
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/peak-leaving-a-spotlight-on-nurse-leaver-rates-in-the-uk
Only 43% of those who left retired and only 12% left the UK. The others quit for various reasons and under the conditions I suggested many would return:
https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/
That's just six years, go back further and as with teachers there are hundreds of thousands who quit to do something more lucrative, less hassle etc..
Bleedin 'ell you still banging on about Scotland TJ??? I you have the nerve to talk about my alledged, quote: "london centric parochial eyes"! 😂
London has a population which is more than twice the population of the whole of Scotland and Wales put together, but even I accept that there are other parts of the UK other than where I live!
London is overwhelmingly Labour, there is an actual possibility that the Tories might lose every single seat in London. Labour has no plans to rejoin the EU.
Based on the huge support Labour enjoys in London, Labour currently has more MPs in London than the SNP has MPs in the whole of Scotland, what can we conclude from this? Absolutely **** all.
Yes Ernie - because what is happening in Scotland gives lie to your whole thesis on this
the experience from Scotland tells us that being pro EU with strong leadership is a vote winner. brexit labour have one seat If your thesis was right that no one wants a pro vbrexit party and everyone is fed up0 of talking about it the SNP would be losing in the polls and labour gaining
Edukator a link would be interesting on that
While we can’t see Ed’s missing numbers yet, I’ll wager they include “retired” nurses that are now in essential roles in the care system. Persuading them back into the NHS isn’t a trivial thing to achieve, and will create holes in services elsewhere, with a knock on effect for the NHS.
Anyway, Labour has announced that they will increase the numbers trained. No one should be under any doubt now about what voting Conservative means for the NHS, and the care system.
Also nurses like me would need a retraining to rejoin the workforce as our registrations lapse. this means you cannot re enter the workforce immediately and its also expensive
Can you all be retrained and reposted by the summer? Or is that fantasy, even if there is enough of you, and enough money is thrown at the task?
Numbers added as requested.
Thanks Ed. From that…
Increasing numbers leaving…
In total, 27,133 people left the NMC Register in the last year.
That's an increase in the number of people leaving over the previous year (23,934) of 13.37%.
Of the total number of people leaving the register, 25,219 were Nurses.
This is an increase of 13% in Nurses leaving the register (22,342 Nurses left the register in 2020-21).
Who’s joining the workforce…?
Almost half of the new nursing staff joining the NMC Register in the year to March 2022 were from overseas.
22,745 people from outside the EU / EEA joined the register (up from 9,152 the previous year).
That's a 149% increase.
Meanwhile, just 663 people from within the EU joined.
Which I think closely follows TJs description of the situation. Someone who “might” follow and understand the situation in the profession more than the rest of us. Wise to listen to him (on this topic anyway).
The SNP have made the EU membership the core of their second referendum, of course they're going to be backing it to the hilt, it's a huge part of their push for that referendum, and the lack of appeal for rejoining the EU by the UK government allows them to have that argument.
What the SNP is less keen to discuss is the actual cost benefit of, or timeline involved in Scotland rejoining the EU if independence occurred, it's all good stating that rejoining the EU would be like the land of milk and honey for Scotland, but that's not very useful if it's not actually backed by some facts.
I just don't buy the SNP good all other politicians bad, they are pretty much mainly career politicians, who have spent their lives in some political arena, why the demarcation line between Scotland and England would provide a basis for good and bad politicians is as much fiction as the stuff that any politician states!
Ta for the links. I very much doubt many of those will come back. childcare, retired ( but not 67) other jobs etc
Can you all be retrained and reposted by the summer? Or is that fantasy, even if there is enough of you, and enough money is thrown at the task?
well I am not coming back. broken mentally and physically by the job. I can no longer do it. I am not alone in this. You could probably get a few thousand back but nothing like the numbers needed.
If every nurse who has left the profession over 6 years and is still in the UK and not retired came back it would just about cover the shortages.
I just don’t buy the SNP good all other politicians bad, they are pretty much mainly career politicians, who have spent their lives in some political arena, why the demarcation line between Scotland and England would provide a basis for good and bad politicians is as much fiction as the stuff that any politician states!
My point is simply that being a pro EU party with a strong commitment to rejoining is a vote winner not a vote loser. Thats what the scottish situation tells us. It totally gives lie to Ernie and Dazh thesis that a rejoin party is a vote loser and no one wants to hear about brexit
It totally gives lie to Ernie and Dazh thesis that a rejoin party is a vote loser
Thanks for the accusation of lying.
However if we are seeking the truth this is what I said:
I am not saying that “being pro EU is such a vote loser”, I am saying that for most people outside Singletrackworld it is an issue of no or very little importance.
I have also said that banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything simply alienates people.
You claim this cannot be the case because of the 8% of the UK population which lives in Scotland think it is really important.
You back this claim by pointing out that the SNP does very well in Scotland. Despite the fact that the SNP had less MSPs five years after the EU referendum than it had five years before the EU referendum.
It's almost as if SNP support has very little or nothing to do with Brexit.
Sorry Ernie - not to mean an accusation of lying. apologies
I have also said that banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything simply alienates people.
which clearly is not the case given whats happening in Scotland.
Does the SNP really keep on banging on about Brexit at every conceivable opportunity and blaming it for everything? Struth 😳
Edit:
not to mean an accusation of lying. apologies
Nah, I knew what you meant. I was being overdramatic to emphasize the point that you were misrepresenting what I was saying.
🙂
Let's be brutally honest here, no one in England really gives a f*** about Scotland. If they want to leave the UK and join the EU I'm sure most people in England will give them a cheery wave. Personally I think that would be a tragedy and extremely damaging for Scotland for all the reason why brexit was a bad idea. I can completely understand why they would want to though. If joining the EU is as important to Scotland as TJ claims then maybe it's for the best, but I reckon it's not quite as cut and dried as that. The links between Scotland and the rUK are much stronger than people think and the last referendum was a definitive no.
a definitive no
55/45, wasn’t it? And then all the carrots dangled to get that result were withdrawn.
Weird isn’t it… we expect politicians to change their policies as the world changes around them, or indeed for them to be replaced if they fail to deliver, but a population who have voted in a referendum should never speak again… and those that persuade them to vote a certain way are under no obligation to deliver on anything they promise.
55/45 and interestingly because its right and fair ( and unlike the EU ref) EU citizens living here were allowed to vote and mainly voted no after listening to project fear. That might have just tipped it.
My point is simple - that what is happening in Scotland shows your analysis and Starmers to be wrong. Rejoin is a positive vote winner and does not turn folk off if a positive case is made for the EU
Let’s be brutally honest here, no one in England really gives a f*** about Scotland.
Why then do English politicians block a second ref? Is it because they know the economic damage to England from losing scotland would be huge>?
Nah, Labour because they think it would be a mistake for Scotland to go independent and the Tories because they are the Conservative and Unionist Party. Plus there already has been a referendum. The recognised protocol isn't that you keep having referendums until you get the result that you like.
I agree with Daz - I think the average punter in the rest of the UK has grown weary of the issue and frankly probably cares very little.
Personally i care and down south for the last few years, questions about independence are less problematic than Scotland joining the EU though, as independence means a lot of agreements and more than likely shared services, whilst joining the EU would put a physical barrier up, and make Scotland compete in many ways, as well as bringing the same negative issues Brexit has brought us across the UK.
There's a real need for some facts, or at the least probabilities of positives and negatives for both, the SNP for me are using the EU issue as a driver for IndyRef2, that's fine, it's politics, the SNP is all about Independence, so are going to use everything available to fight for it, but they need to really look hard at themselves to make sure they're not doing a re-run of the Brexit campaign, and doing similar selling points as muppets like Farage and Boris did with '£300 million a week wasted' or 'immigrants stealing our benefits'.
Why then do English politicians block a second ref?
Two reasons mainly. First the King and previously the queen would have been very pissed off about it. Second is Faslane. They’re not going to give up their only nuclear weapons base. They also don’t want to split the British Army. The military issues are insanely complicated.
Scottish independence is an awful lot of drift
Military stuff is nonsense. Its pride and the fact that scotland supports the UK economy and without Scotland rUK economy would be a lot worse
anyway - thats far from the point of this thread
and the fact that scotland supports the UK economy
They need us more than than we need them. Now where have we heard that before? 😀
What I am saying is without rejoining the EU its much much harder as we have both hands tied behind our backs.
At last we are getting somewhere. This Starmer geezer who will in all likelihood be the next PM has totally ruled out rejoining the EU, and he doesn't appear to be getting much opposition to that stance from within the Labour Party. Lessons have obviously been learnt from the consequences of calling for a second EU referendum last general election.
So bearing in mind that rejoining will not be an option anytime soon you can rule it out as a solution to the UK's nurse shortage. However much harder it might be a solution which doesn't involve rejoining the EU will have to be found.
What that shows is the stupidity of the labour policy .
I have been consistent with that line. Refusing to even think about rejoining is a vote loser, its self defeating and its stupid. the majority of the population want to rejoin IIRC and that number will only increase.
Again the scots lesson for Starmer. a pro european pro rejoin party is a vote winner. Labour share of the vote is dropping again IIRC in Scotland because at lest in part of supporting brexit
I personally cannot see any solution in the next few years to the lack of staff unless we take developing countries staff.
Refusing to even think about rejoining is a vote loser
It doesn't seem to have a significant affect. First poll of 2023 :
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-3-january-2023/
Btw TJ I decided to do a search concerning all these unemployed nurses in Spain who would come to the UK if only it was easier. This is all that I could find:
"Fresh figures from the council also showed Spain needed 95,000 more nursing professionals employed across the country’s hospitals to match the European average.
Spain has 625 nurses per 100,000 inhabitants, while the European average stands at 827, according to the data.
Current nurses are overwhelmed as a result, causing them to march through the streets of Madrid in a series of protests in the past few years. "
So why is Spain currently experiencing a shortage of nurses? Spain is an EU member state, why aren't nurses from other parts of the EU solving Spain's nursing crisis under freedom of movement?
If EU membership solves nursing shortages why has Spain got a nursing shortage?