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Come on. You’re perfectly aware that this is all the fault of he who shall not be named.
Yes it's important to remember that despite being current Labour leader and Brexit secretary at the time, nothing is Starmer's responsibility at all.
Yes it’s important to remember that despite being current Labour leader and Brexit secretary at the time, nothing is Starmer’s responsibility at all.
Someone else who prefers to say the opposite of what they mean? What do you think Starmer should do now?
nothing is Starmer’s responsibility at all
Strawman. Of course he is partly responsible.
Labour has two realistic options now… abstain or support a deal (if a vote even comes before the house this year… I doubt it will). Which should Starmer propose? I think he should have Labour abstaining… but either way, it would make little to no difference as to what happens at the end of the year… so I don’t see it as very exciting whatever he does (or says he would do… all still very hypothetical while Johnson fights the EU over minimum standards … and … er … fish?)
Strawman.
You're right: there's nothing in this thread to give that impression.
Is that reference to Binners saying someone else carries far more responsibility than Starmer for what happened up and ‘till the start of this year? Because if so… he is obviously right. And CTK is right that a third person carries even more of the responsibility… Starmer falls well below both of those two ex-party leaders if you want to waste effort playing the blame game, it’s not exactly controversial to say so. And then there’s Johnson and Gove…
It's funny that despite being labelled as rabid cultists, 'the left' of Labour are mostly able to accept JC turned out to be a crap leader and has made mistakes over AS - whereas according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong.
I think he should abstain or let people vote with their conscience - it will likely make no difference anyway. Should have used the whip to oppose the government's international willy waving defence spending increases though, instead of welcoming it.
‘the left’ of Labour are mostly able to accept JC turned out to be a crap leader and has made mistakes over AS
Me.
according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong
Not me.
it will likely make no difference anyway
I agree.
according to most on these threads KS can literally do no wrong
Most? Say he can literally do no wrong?? I don't think anyone has said this.
Deputy:
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1333013472536391681?s=21
Leader:
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1333035220455579654?s=21
Fallout from JLM2020 … it looks as if you can’t even call JLM “white supremacists” any more… it’s political correctness gone mad. [final straw that led to Twitter banning the editor of the Canary I believe, as she criticised the deputy and leader for attending using that phrase]
On Labour having just a thin, ineffective, just about pointless, hobson’s choice in front of them if it comes to a vote on a deal:
https://twitter.com/paulbernaluk/status/1332963465045139458?s=21
I’m trying to figure out what’s up in Labour today.
Is it International Solidarity with Palestine day? If so did Jewish Labour decide to call their one day conference on the same day, forcing Kier to ‘pick a side’ or just a coincidence?
Is it seen to be AS to support Palestine now?
Basically, why level and type of bullshit are we wading through today?
I’m sure that with everything being so quiet in this country at the moment, Palestine is at the forefront of everyone’s thoughts.
Can anyone fill me in on what the state of affairs is presently in Venezuela? I’ve not been paying attention as much as I should of late. I know, I know.... but I’ve been busy.
Are there any online petitions I could sign or any retweets I could make to express my solidarity?
The IDF are terrified of retweets expressing solidarity
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
All this seems to support the python's view of the working class
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
Do you know how much international influence the UK government has on foreign governments at the moment?
None. Zero. We're a parochial little isolationist, backward-gazing island busy hammering away at our own feet with an ice pick.
Do you know how much international influence the UK opposition party has on foreign governments at the moment?
Even less than zero
But here we are in 2020 and whats the Labour party busy having a dust up over? Israel and Palestine.
Do you think anyone in Israel and Palestine will actually notice?
And while engaged in yet more pointlessly cyclical bickering and vitrue-signalling, there's actually one or two things going on closer to home that HM opposition might be better concentrating on instead. A global pandemic. Rampant government corruption and incompetence. The impending Brexit economic shitstorm. The most brutal recession this country has ever seen. You know... that type of thing...
So you do agree that anti semitism in the labour party isn't anywhere near as big an issue as has been made out and there are far more important things to worry about. Good to have you on board.
So you do agree that anti semitism in the labour party isn’t anywhere near as big an issue as has been made out and there are far more important things to worry about.
Can't speak for binners but it seems to me that as Corbyn missed the chance to draw a line under the issue properly, and thus allowed it to drag on, it will have to be ignored, sadly, while more pressing national issues take priority.
A lose/lose for all sides.
Yeah **** all them foreigners! 100% agree binbins.
Yeah, god forbid you devote those precious seconds to something other than yourself. Of course binners doesn't think of anyone BUT himself so, you know, it's hard for him to get to grips with the concept.
It's all the Labour party can talk about though..
Must not mention brexit
Must not discuss a vision for the future
Must not mention JC
No plan for the Pandemic
The ultimate smash and grab victory will be eeeezeee if they just learn to zip it for 3 years👍
LOL doubling down on the **** all foreigners then binbins?! Jesus wept.
And while engaged in yet more pointlessly cyclical bickering and vitrue-signalling
I suppose, given that you've championed insular, selfish politics, it's not surprising that you've also adopted its language.
I suppose, given that you’ve championed insular, selfish politics
And where exactly have I done that?
I'm merely posing the question of how it looks to most voters when a party trying to establish itself as a serious contender for government is endlessly wanging on about Palestine while we're in the middle of a massive global pandemic, there's rampant government corruption and incompetence and the small matter of the huge looming recession and mass unemployment on the horizon, with a disastrous Brexit adding to the chaos
You'd think, given how pressing these issues are for the country, that those on the left may temporarily park their favourite hobby-horses to concentrate on more pertinent affairs
But no...
Public displays of solidarity it must be.
And where exactly have I done that?
Several people think you have on this page. But I'm fully aware that you're not one for self-reflection and expect you to self-entrench further into little-Englander politics, while telling yourself it's about something slightly less ignoble.
Several people think you have on this page.
Well if several people think it then it must be correct then.
Far be it from me to have an opinion that differs from the committee
QED
Several people think you have on this page.
That's it case closed?
I see something presumably criticising Monty Python, for some reason; a link to a correspondence criticising the IHRA definition for saying that "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour” is an example of antisemitism, amongst other things. And someone saying that antisemitism in the labour party is less of a big issue than other, er, issues. And others hiding so far behind sarcasm I'm hard pushed to work out what it is they're trying to articulate. Like that guy in Father Ted, you know the one. Must find a gif.
Okay, no gifs but here's a pic: Father Jessup, 
the most sarcastic priest in Ireland, from Kicking Bishop Brennan Up The Arse
.
endlessly wanging on about Palestine
The main reason I care about Palestine is after a very good lifelong friend once did some work in Ramallah about 15 years ago. He worked for a human rights organisation and previously had spent time in Sri Lanka and Sierra Leone and had seen some pretty harrowing stuff. Then he went to Palestine, where his driver and security guards told him stories of their family members who were murdered by the IDF. Some of them kids who were shot whilst in the playground. Now I can't verify any of the stories he told me, and he couldn't either, but I know him well enough to believe that he believed what he was told. He came back from Ramallah with a bad case of PTSD and never really recovered. So yeah, I'll keep 'wanging on' about Palestine, because at the end of the day we're talking about kids and innocent people being murdered by an unaccountable military and government, under the full glare of an international community which doesn't seem to care.
Nobody is disputing how unremittingly awful the situation has been for decades. Its absolutely horrendous. As is Syria and Libya and Afghanistan and plenty of other places
Thats not the point
Do you know how much Benjamin Netanyahu cares about the opinion of the leader of the labour party in the UK?
I doubt he even knows who he is.
My point is that the labour party should be committing its efforts to things it can actually influence, maybe some of the enormous challenges presently facing the country, not wasting its energies on things completely beyond its control over which it can exert zero influence
I think this is demonstrating beautifully the problem the Labour movement faces - an idealogical side where everything matters and tackling them all as a matter of principle is a "higher calling" that can't be compromised, and another pragmatic side that just wants to get into government and start fixing what it can, right here, right now and will get to the rest later.
Unless the two sides can agree on a common enemy to fight, rather than each other, Boris will be laughing!
and another pragmatic side that just wants to get into government and start fixing what it can
The current opposition are unencumbered by even the second part of that.
Labour absolutely have to unite to present a useful, credible, opposition.
Even then, with the burdens of wanting to do things about half right, it will be difficult.
Well put, MCTD - encapsulates why I'm so depressed about all this infighting...
Of course binners doesn’t think of anyone BUT himself so, you know, it’s hard for him to get to grips with the concept.
I'd just like to point out that this little dig at Binners' character is complete and utter bollocks and will come as a laughably incorrect accusation by anyone who has made even a passing acquaintance of the man.
Carry on.
My point is that the labour party should be committing its efforts to things it can actually influence
I don't disagree, but I think you massively exaggerate the time and effort people in the labour party devote to Palestine. I can't really ever remember Corbyn talking about it in any detail when he was leader. This is why I say it's been blown out of all proportion by Corbyn's external and internal enemies to destroy him.
Now we have the spectacle of Angela Rayner, the same person who introduced Corbyn in Manchester with glowing praise less than a year ago, now saying anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party. I guess it goes to prove that some people are happy to do and say anything they like to further their careers. I thought Rayner was better than this, and clearly I was massively wrong.
now saying anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party.
where?
I think you massively exaggerate the time and effort people in the labour party devote to Palestine
Remember when flags were banned from the party conference. Well, Union or EU flags anyway...
now saying anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party.
She didn't say anything even remotely resembling that, despite what the usual lefty tinfoil-helmet brigade would have you believe as they soil their petticoats in howling, righteous indignation on Twitter
Funny how many on here are accusing others of being consumed with self interest.
It seems to me the left's obsession with Palestine / Israel is the definition of self interest. The constant bickering provides no solutions for the Palestinians whilst simultaneoisly worsening the issue of anti semitism. All it succeeds in doing is demonstrating how principled one is.
Without skin in the game principles become nothing more than sentimentalism and virtue signalling. I don't believe for a second that those on here advocating for the Palestinian cause care more about their fate than binners. I do however feel that they are more ready to adopt principled positions that allow anti semitism to go unchecked in both the Labour Party and society at large.
^Straight to the jugular.
where?
https://labourlist.org/2020/11/rayner-says-thousands-of-labour-members-may-be-suspended-from-party/
Could you find us the bit where she said, to quote you directly: "anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party"
I've read everything she said and can't find any reference to that at all
There is an OTT obsession with Israel and Palestine on the left and some of it might come from anti semitism, but fundamentally what it comes down to is being on the side of the underdog - the one being pushed around by a hugely wealthy expansionist, religious colonial power.
People who thought that was what the Labour party were supposed to be about are finding it a bit hard to now be told that can get you kicked out of the party. You might not think it's important but to lots of people if we are on the side of the colonial power and we want to keep selling arms to them then what's the point?
Could you find us the bit where she said, to quote you directly: “anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party”
Local party groups are being told motions supporting Jeremy Corbyn or questioning the EHRC reports are not allowed and could be viewed as anti semitic, then she says thousands of members could be kicked out for anti semitism. Not unreasonable to make a connection there is it.
It seems to me the left’s obsession with Palestine / Israel is the definition of self interest.
This is pure doublespeak: mischaracterising "giving a shit" as an obsession. It's possible to hold two or more thoughts simultaneously, just as it's possible to avoid riding the latest bandwagon that facilitates an attack on those who dare to say what they think is right. Now that is the definition of self-interest.
This is pure doublespeak: mischaracterising “giving a shit” as an obsession. It’s possible to hold two or more thoughts simultaneously,
I'm sure everyone posting on the last few pages of this does give a shit about Palestine, and am equally sure no one is being antisemitic. The disagreement is about how labour should handle these issues tactically. That this really has not been helped by he who should not be named would be my view, and also that the leadership seems to be doing their best with an unnecessarily difficult situation. Clearly other views are available.
Could you find us the bit where she said, to quote you directly: “anyone who defends him should be expelled from the party”
Her comments about 'suspending thousands and thousands' (which is a weird phrase in itself, it sounds like she's positively looking forward to it!) are in the context of labour CLPs passing motions for Corbyn to have the whip restored and it making Jewish members uncomfortable. The message to the membership from Rayner and Starmer is loud and clear: Stop defending Corbyn, or be kicked out.
I'm very sorry it makes Jewish members uncomfortable, and I don't doubt for a second they feel that. After Corbyn has been built up into this anti-semitic demon by his political enemies it's hardly surprising. If I were them I'd be asking who benefits from all this. It certainly hasn't done the Jewish community any good, or the labour party, or the wider socialist movement. It seems Rayner is just the latest to work out that it could be good for her career though.
Some of the left's obsession with Palestine and Israel may have anti semitic roots but it also works the other way round in that the obsession can lead unwittingly to furthering anti semitism through ignorance. This is what concerns me most.
I see how the Palestine issue gains traction within the music community and how AS creeps in. There's quite a large hip hop scene in Europe that is full of disgusting AS slurs and I worry that unchecked that sentiment could grow amongst the youth of the UK.
I was equally alarmed to see attemts to graft the Palestinian cause onto the BLM protests. I have a Kenyan in-law who spent some of their school years in both Israel and Lebanon and as a black person she educated me a little when I advocated the typical white European left wing perspective on Israel.
When I say educated me, I mean she gave me a look of withering contempt that I can still remember 15 years later.
Her comments about ‘suspending thousands and thousands’ (which is a weird phrase in itself, it sounds like she’s positively looking forward to it!) are in the context of labour CLPs passing motions for Corbyn to have the whip restored and it making Jewish members uncomfortable.
In the piece you linked what she says is:
“If they think making people feel unsafe or unwelcome in our meetings is a response to the EHRC report, then they need to be out of our party immediately.
Really this is not the same.
The message to the membership from Rayner and Starmer is loud and clear: Stop defending Corbyn, or be kicked out.
They're saying nothing of the sort. I'm sorry Sorry mate, but to interpret it like that is just the sort of tinfoil-helmeted nonsense that seems to fit in so well with the persecution complexes of the left and their need to see everything as part of 'their struggle'.
Well put, MCTD – encapsulates why I’m so depressed about all this infighting…
More worryingly, I'm not a Labour member, nor am I usually a Labour voter.
The more I see and hear this kind of infighting being reported and discussed more than proper policy development, the more likely I am to piss my vote up against the LibDems wall.
You really don't want to look back in 4 years time and regret missing the open goals Boris is giving you, because you are too busy deciding whose turn it is to cross the ball. And I'm directing that at both sides of the debate on here. Corbyn couldn't leave it alone, and neither can his critics.
If they think making people feel unsafe or unwelcome in our meetings is a response to the EHRC report, then they need to be out of our party immediately.
At the same time as threatening to kick out thousands of members, they are literally also saying don't pass motions of support for Corbyn or criticise the EHRC report because it makes Jewish people feel unwelcome - but apparently linking these two directly and obviously related things makes you a conspiracy theorist. You really do talk some utter mince binners.
At the same time as threatening to kick out thousands of members, they are literally also saying don’t pass motions of support for Corbyn or criticise the EHRC report because it makes Jewish people feel unwelcome – but apparently linking these two directly and obviously related things makes you a conspiracy theorist
Is it possible to put forward a motion of support for Corbyn or to criticise the EHRC report, without making Jewish people feel unwelcome?
Is it possible to put forward a motion of support for Corbyn or to criticise the EHRC report, without making Jewish people feel unwelcome?
I don't think anyone has put forward a motion criticising the EHRC report, it's the motions demanding Corbyn be given back the whip which are causing trouble. But in answer to the question, no its probably not possible for Jewish people to feel comfortable with the pro-Corbyn motions because his enemies inside and outside the party have built him up into an anti-semitic hate figure. The genie is out the bottle, and its not going back in.
The EHRC which must not be criticised in any way or you're an anti-semite....
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/30/ehrc-board-member-under-scrutiny-over-social-media-use
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/30/politicising-ehrc-five-controversial-appointments
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/12/equalities-watchdog-drops-plan-for-tory-islamophobia-inquiry
Is it possible to put forward a motion of support for Corbyn or to criticise the EHRC report, without making Jewish people feel unwelcome?
I don't know I wouldn't like to speak for Jewish people or assume they are a homogenous mass.
I don't assume that. Let's say some jewish people present at those meetings. I think it should be possible, especially if they're the ones putting forward those motions. I'd just question whether it's the best use of energy right now.
soil their petticoats
What does this phrase mean? Is it just some cheap sexist remark?
from:
despite what the usual lefty tinfoil-helmet brigade would have you believe as they soil their petticoats in howling, righteous indignation on Twitter
there’s rampant government corruption and incompetence and the small matter of the huge looming recession and mass unemployment on the horizon, with a disastrous Brexit adding to the chaos
And yet Keith doesn't offer up anything like a purposeful position on any of it. You know - he could do this.
Labour consistently fail to change the narrative on neoliberal economics - despite having all of the tools in front of them to strip away the lies of Sunak and Co about the source of Government money.
Remind me - is he still playing a forensic long game?
Starmer whipping his M.P's to abstain on the new tiers, what a waste of space he is, he's not offering any alternative.
Remind me – is he still playing a forensic long game?
Busy pulling splinters out of his arse cheeks, I think.
he’s not offering any alternative.
The reality of centrist 'credible' opposition. Don't rock the boat, don't threaten the interests of vested power and wealth, don't try anything new. We have 4 more years of this before the voters inevitably tell him to do one. What then?
Starmer whipping his M.P’s to abstain on the new tiers, what a waste of space he is, he’s not offering any alternative.
And what alternative are you suggesting then? He has pointed out the 'grave misgivings' he has about the tier system which is why the labour party won't be voting with the government.
From what I can see he only has three options:
1. Support the government
2. Abstain - while giving his reasons for doing so
3. Vote with the ultra-libertarian right of the Tory party to defeat the government on the tier system coming in to place, which then means that legally there are now no restrictions in place at all and everyone can do what they want. And what happens then? This isn't a ****ing game. We're in the middle of a pandemic
Come on then. Lets have your alternative suggestions please...
I'm all ears
I am with Binners here, what options does he realistically have? The last election gave the Tories an 80 seat majority, if the cabinet can't get its policy through with that then there is something very wrong.
Wonder what will happen if there is a vote on a Brexit deal? Will it be the same carp situation? The problem is we have an inept right wing bunch of fools in charge with a massive majority. Times really are rubbish.
3. Vote with the ultra-libertarian right of the Tory party
A shit policy is a shit policy. If that's the labour view then they should vote against it irregardless of whoever else does that. As the opposition it's their job to oppose, if they just agree on everything there's no point in having an opposition.
The other option is to set out what they would do, but as we've seen Keir isn't too keen on declaring where he stands on any issue, let alone covid restrictions.
He has pointed out what he would do.
1. Continue lockdown with tiers in place
2. Provide business with the support they need
3. Fix test and trace
Wonder what will happen if there is a vote on a Brexit deal? Will it be the same carp situation?
I think there will be some horrible arrangement that avoids the complete chaos of crashing out on WTO terms, which the government appear to have done zero real planning for, (expect Kentish truck parks and telling businesses they need to prepare) and then yes Labour will have not real choice but to abstain. Can vote for a shit deal, but the alternative is worse.
As the opposition it’s their job to oppose, if they just agree on everything there’s no point in having an opposition.
They're abstaining, which isn't supporting the government.
So let me get this straight...
You lot who spend your lives railing against neoliberal capitalism and advocating the wonders of socialism now want Keir Starmer to vote against the government so that a hardcore of ultra-neoliberal, right wing free-marketeers can throw open the economy and open everything up with no restrictions so that their mates can get back to making money?
Thats it, right? Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!
Well, that'll bloody show Boris who's boss and a grateful nation will thank the labour party for that when their boss phones up and tells them to get back in the bloody office NOW or they're sacked?
Clearly you've really thought this through, haven't you? Socialism, eh? Bloody fantastic!
And Starmer has made a statement this morning saying exactly what Labour would do differently (see post above)
And what alternative are you suggesting then? He has pointed out the ‘grave misgivings’ he has about the tier system which is why the labour party won’t be voting with the government.
Yes, his misgivings are so grave that he's going to do nothing to stop it happening. I think we all know how this dithering would be viewed if it were the previous leader.
And Starmer has made a statement this morning saying exactly what Labour would do differently (see post above)
I'll ask again...
You want him to whip his MPs to vote against the government?
You realise what that would result in, right? You've actually thought that far ahead?
You know who the Tory rebels are, right? What they represent? Who's interests?
You're aware that it would bring a victory for a hardcore of ultra-neoliberal, right wing free-marketeers to throw open the economy and open everything up with virtually no restrictions so that their mates can get back to making money?
Well, that'd be a real 'victory' for the people labour are meant to represent, wouldn't it?
Christ on a bendybus! You wonder why I constantly accuse you lot of 6th formal levels of reasoning? I know primary school kids who could display more effective rationale than that
We'll all vote against the government, because.... erm... errrr just BECAUSE!
Oh.... actually .... thats not really worked out that well, has it?
Yes, his misgivings are so grave that he’s going to do nothing to stop it happening. I think we all know how this dithering would be viewed if it were the previous leader.
What choice does he have given the Tories 80 seat majority? When JC was leader there was not a Tory majority so Labour would have been in position to have done something. See Brexit mess as an example of JC's fence sittign and dithering.
Yeah, you're quite right. It's only a matter of extreme national importance, so why would you support or oppose it. He's only the leader of the opposition, after all.
The real travesty here is that he had a real opportunity to negotiate with the government: the size of the tory rebellion is such that the Government may actually need Labour.
Of course, Boris knows full well that Starmer hasn't the courage to say anything beyond "please don't hurt me". This is exactly the kind of crap you'd be all over it it was Corbyn.
now want Keir Starmer to vote against the government so that a hardcore of ultra-neoliberal, right wing free-marketeers can throw open the economy and open everything up with no restrictions so that their mates can get back to making money?
Don't be stupid. What I want is for him to get off the fence and propose a real, viable alternative that will both protect people from the virus and the economic fallout. The only way to do that is a massive programme of direct support from the government for people and businesses in the form of UBI and govt grants to businesses to cover their overheads. It requires nothiing less than the govt under-writing the economy for however long is necessary to beat the virus and get back to normal. But that's not what Keir is proposing is it? He's not proposing anything different to Boris, and is instead only interested in the optics of being 'responsible' and 'credible' so that he doesn't lose the support of his corporate sponsors.
What choice does he have given the Tories 80 seat majority?
So you're saying it makes no difference? Then why would opposing it matter?
What happens if govt is defeated, stick in lockdown or free-for-all? If the latter Starmer has undoubtedly done the right thing because, if they voted against the tiers, the subsequent rise would be blamed on labour.
What I want is for him to get off the fence and propose a real, viable alternative that will both protect people from the virus and the economic fallout
Quite. He could start by tabling an amendment and voting for that: at least we'd have some idea of what he wanted for the country. But that seems to be beyond Captain Ditherer. I actually had him as my second preference for leader and have to say that I've been bitterly disappointed so far.
So you’re saying it makes no difference? Then why would opposing it matter?
Opposing it shows support for the 2nd crappy option, and sides you with the ultra right lunatics of the Tory party.
Voting with screws over business as they haven't got the support they require.
Abstaining says both options are crap and shows the split in the Tory party because if they can't get a policy through with an 80 seat majority there is something wrong.
If the option was a poop sandwich on brown or white bread would you expect someone to choose?
Quite. He could start by tabling an amendment and voting for that: at least we’d have some idea of what he wanted for the country
Why? To achieve what, exactly?
A total waste of time. Labour has no chance of getting any amendments on the bill and Starmer knows it. It'd be self-defeating, pointless tokenism, but then the left is rather fond of that type of thing.
There are only two outcomes here:
1. Boris gets his bill through
2. Boris is defeated and the far-right ERG uber-libertarian headbanger wing of the Tory party get their victory and its open up the economy, herd immunity and overflowing ICU departments
Hmmmmmmmm .... it's a real dilemma as to which option the Labour party should enable, isn't it?
A total waste of time. Labour has no chance of getting any amendments on the bill and Starmer knows it.
So on the one hand, the Tories may need Labour's support or abstention to pass the bill. On the other, Labour has no influence over its contents.
I'd stick to the crayons.