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The reason it's quiet is there is very little be enthusiastic about.
Also, why is it actually toxic - that just appears to be a way of yet again limiting debate or perhaps just a reflection of the state of Labour.
There is little to lose sleep about in an internet discussion
Although Post-pandemic (not really post) my world has changed - lack of general enthusiasm and positivity is hard to come by. Maybe a product of turning 50 and the push against the inner Tory! (Never 😃)
why is it actually toxic
Toxic? Just like the brexit and Boris Johnson threads this thread is clearly tolerant and massively respectful of people's diverse opinions. Here's a wonderful example:
The Tweet is also seriously short of creepy cult-like replies telling him that he’s the greatest human being ever to walk the earth, if not actually technically a God
With posts like that warmly embracing people with a different point of view how could this thread be seen as toxic?
Also, why is it actually toxic
I assume because its not filled with hilarious comments asking how his allotment is since he hasnt been seen. Then again maybe not. The standards of "toxic" seem rather flexible.
With posts like that warmly embracing people with a different point of view how could this thread be seen as toxic?
Perhaps it's a reflection of your prose style which lends itself to be read as sneering condescension?
This thread is like watching expert tennis players hitting perfectly executed winning shots, but playing on entirely different courts to each other.
Johnson today saying he’ll be fighting the next election. That’s the best indicator we have of Starmer’s effectiveness. Time for Streeting??
Johnson today saying he’ll be fighting the next election.
It doesnt say much really. Whether he will be allowed to depends on the press barons and the tory MPs and not his personal opinion.
which lends itself to be read as sneering condescension?
Maybe. I won't deny a certain feeling of contempt towards the hypocrisy of middle-class liberalism which is filled with so much hatred and distain towards those with different political opinions, and the wider electorate.
Their arrogant self-righteous sense of moral and intellectual superiority over the great unwashed is a source of personal fascination though.
Johnson today saying he’ll be fighting the next election.
I can say that I'm going to fight the next election. You could say that you're going to if you like. It doesn't make it a fact. The decision isn't his to make. We're not living in a dictatorship just yet, despite what he thinks.
I see Labour are 11 points ahead in the latest polls as we approach the local elections
Is this yet more proof of what a terrible job Starmer is doing?
11 points? Surely it should be 20?
Whether he will be allowed to depends on the press barons and the tory MPs and not his personal opinion.
According to an article in the FT yesterday Johnson's position as Tory leader is currently not at risk as although Labour are leading in the polls ATM Tory MPs don't see Labour as a serious threat should a GE be called.
A fair analysis imo although that could obviously change if Labour start to consistently get double digit leads in the polls or the Tory vote collapses in the local elections.
11 points? Surely it should be 20?
We don't know what it'll be yet. But everything appears, thankfully, to be heading in the right direction
Hopefully the Tories will lose over 1000 council seats, nationally, in a couple of weeks
Like Kelvin, I'm doing something other than moan about it on the internet, and going out delivering letters and leaflets from Labour to postal voters we think are of a sympathetic persuasion to make sure that they use their vote. We're trying to get our great labour councillors re-elected and maybe get a couple more in. And the Tories out, obviously
I see Labour are 11 points ahead in the latest polls as we approach the local elections
The latest opinion poll gives Labour an 8 point lead. There have been only two opinion polls since the first week of February which have given Labour a double digit lead.
Despite the Tories shooting themselves on the foot on a daily basis the opinion polls of the last couple of months suggest that if a general election was held under the current situation Labour would fall well short of a majority.
It would appear that leaving it to the Tories to score own goals isn't enough
I’m doing something other than moan about it on the internet, and going out delivering letters and leaflets from Labour to postal voters we think are of a sympathetic persuasion to make sure that they use their vote.
Sounds like a plan but FFS don't talk to them.
Ernie - they're not daft enough to have me actually talk to people! 🤣
Shoving things through letterboxes only
This thread is like watching expert tennis players hitting perfectly executed winning shots, but playing on entirely different courts to each other.
I saw this earlier, @nickc, and thought it particularly apposite - I just realised you have defined the entirety of Twitter for Twitter users (me included). 🙂
FFS why can't the Labour Party inspire voters with an alternative vision which they can believe in?
The latest opinion poll (conducted April 20-21) gives Labour just a 6% lead.
https://www.techneuk.com/tracker/
If that's the best Starmer can achieve under the current circumstances, ie highly negative headlines for the Tories on daily basis, what chance is there for him to win the next general election in two years time?
I'm reminded of a comment I heard Frankie Boyle make last night on the telly......."Starmer has all the authority of a 'do not tumble dry' label".
Ernie - who would you rather have as leader? It seems to me nothing Starmer does satisfies you
It seems to me nothing Starmer does satisfies you
What is he doing?
The Tories are shooting themselves in the foot on a daily basis and scoring spectacular own goals, never mind the 'midterm blues', and Labour seem to struggle to achieve a double digit lead.
Are you satisfied with that?
Do you look at the situation and think, "job well done Starmer"?
For someone who claims to hate the Tories so much you seem strangely satisfied with a best case scenario which leaves Labour well short of a majority.
FFS why can’t the Labour Party inspire voters with an alternative vision which they can believe in?
I think folks are too concerned about what's happening to them right now, they haven't the bandwidth to look ahead with any thing like hope for two years time. I don't think Starmer is ever going to "inspire" He's just not that politician, the best he's he's got is "safe pair of hands/boring technocrat" I don't think that's going to change.
Ernie - I think Starmer is the best they have that is electable. I like Lammy but he is the wrong skin colour to be elected IMO. There appears to be a real lack of talent throughout the parliament ( and this seems to be an issue worldwide)
Now who would you rather have as leader? If you are going to criticise Starmer it might be useful to put forward who you think is better suited to be labour leader.
I have repeatedly said that if Labour has a problem Starmer is the symptom rather than the cause.
Something which is reflected by the fact that the PLP appears to be hugely satisfied by his leadership.
And something which you apparently also subscribe to with your comment: "There appears to be a real lack of talent throughout the parliament". Although I have no idea why you think it is a "worldwide" issue. Sounds like defeatism in the extreme. It is perfectly feasible to imagine dynamic political parties led by inspiring leaders.
TINA (there is no alternative) is a thatcherite concept designed to destroy hope and maintain the status quo.
TINA (there is no alternative) is a thatcherite concept designed to destroy hope and maintain the status quo.
So who do you think should be leader?
TINA (there is no alternative) is a thatcherite concept designed to destroy hope and maintain the status quo.
Who or what is your alternative then?
Although I have no idea why you think it is a “worldwide” issue
from discussions with friends in other countries who also bemoan te lack of talent in their political system
Now who would you prefer? If you think Starmer is so poor?
i am actually genuinely interested as there may be some talent I do not know of
I don't think Lammy's lack of PM prospects are anything to do with his skin colour - more that he's a complete hypocrite (MPs can't have two jobs - yet he presents on LBC), his lack of common sense (thought Henry VII succeeded Henry VIII), his willingness to use identity politics in order to avoid answering a question and his sneering sermons to anyone who has a different opinion (ref: the teacher who recently called his radio show).
I think it would be great to have a Black (or Asian) PM - but Lammy is not that person.
Which bit of "I have repeatedly said that if Labour has a problem Starmer is the symptom rather than the cause" don't people understand?
I understand that but who is the alternative?
Its easy to be negative ( Starmer is poor) but much harder to be positive ( X would be a good leader)
Oh, we understand. What's your alternative, if there really is no one on the Labour benches who you would want to be PM? Is it "vote for no one"? Stay at home and let the Conservatives carry on?
I get the impression that you don't think Labour has a problem at all TJ. Do you vote Labour?
Replacing Starmer is pointless, the problem is much deeper than that. Otherwise the PLP wouldn't be so satisfied with his leadership, which they very clearly are.
But then perhaps there isn't a problem and replacing this current shower of shit with Starmer leading a minority government, best case scenario, will be perfectly fine?
Is there really not a single Labour MP you would prefer to Starmer? Or is there a reason why you're ducking and diving around such a simple question? I'd prefer Lammy or Lewis (or even, if he couldn't so easily be painted as "the past", Miliband). While Starmer is leader, I'll be hoping he becomes PM. I'd still be surprised if he does though. And a Labour majority government still looks many elections way to me, whoever is leader. A Labour PM of a minority or coalition government really is the best we can hope for at the next election... there's a mountain to climb for Labour outside London and the other big English cities that might not be totally apparent if you live in one of them.
Ernie - I am in Scotland where we have proportional systems except for Westminster elections. I stopped voting labour a decade ago because of purely scottish issues. I have given up on Westminster. I didn't even vote the last westminster election. My seat is a safe SNP seat with a vile carpetbagger liar as MP
I tend to vote tactically anti tory and pro green
I think Labour have enormous issues and are unfit as a 21st century party. Too timid and too beholden to special interests and far too right wing and ungreen. But in the current westminster party I see no one better than Starmer
Actually I think a minority government might not be a bad thing. SNP to provide support of confidence and supply
What labour should be doing and I have said this for more than a decade is a one election electoral pact with all other opposition parties on a platform of "closer contact with the EU, tax raise and increase NHS and education spending and proper constitutional reform. dissolve after 2 years when the new electoral system is in place which must be unicameral PR. We would never have a tory government again and they might just spike te SNP with a proper federal UK
so once again Ernie - who would you prefer as labour leader?
Kelvin - on current polling labour would be the biggest party but short of a majority
This thread really should be named "Ten Things I Hate About Keir Starmer". I used to come here for interest but it has become a bit of an alternative reality. But then I am one of the ideologically impure. I haven't voted Labour for years because of YKW. I was a Starmer fan back when he was in Head of CPS and was interviewed on Radio 4 - always made sense to me. I may even vote labour again, but I appreciate in this thread reality I need to report for a self criticism session at my local miners club for a couple of weeks for some thought reform!
Why keep asking for a name? That is just playing personality politics.
I want a leader who strengthens working rights, really tackles the cost of living crisis (that isn't just corporate welfare in disguise) changes political funding so that "we" get to vote on policies before they have been filtered by the mega rich, changes the voting system so 1 person 1 vote actually means something, and implements a "green new deal".
I want a leader who has those as principles, rather than a dull version of Boris who is without any conviction other than a belief that he is better and deserves to be leader.
There is a leader shaped hole in the labour party and I don't care what the name of the person who fills it is, I am more concerned with their convictions and principles (although I agree that the problem runs deep in the PLP).
hels - You haven't voted Labour for years and aren't sure if you would vote Labour again but don't like any perceived criticism of Starmer?
so once again Ernie – who would you prefer as labour leader?
I keep telling you, but you're not listening, I don't think Starmer being Labour leader is the problem. After all we had a vaguely leftie leader of the Labour Party before him and the PLP did a better job of attacking him than the Tories did.
So finding soemeone who meets my approval clearly isn't the solution, I don't know why you appear to think it might be, and nor, apparently, is finding someone who meets the PLP's approval.
What would Labour have to do to win your vote TJ, since despite apparently approving of Starmer you never vote for them?
Edit: For hels : Here's "Ten Things I Love About Keir Starmer", all ten are on his website:
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
There's no need for Starmer to be replaced by anyone imo, just for him to argue in favour of what he believes.
...and on what you believe ernie, just to nip back to what you said on the last page:
I won’t deny a certain feeling of contempt towards the hypocrisy of middle-class liberalism
I'm not sure how many of us that includes (me no doubt) but it's a bit like US republicans flinging 'liberal' as an insult. It really isn't. And neither is 'middle class'. It was probably said, I dunno, sardonically maybe? But does reflect a very particular and niche world view.
What would Labour have to do to win your vote TJ, since despite apparently approving of Starmer you never vote for them?
Constructively engage at holyrood. Divorce the scots party from the English party. Develop some decent scottish policies. Get rid of the corrupt idiot who stands for labour in my costituency
Starmer is the best of a bad bunch IMO
I am fascinated why you are so down on Starmer but refuse to say who you would prefer.
And I'm fascinating how people who never vote Labour approve of him so much.
Mind you I'm sure the Tories love him.
The latest opinion poll (conducted April 20-21) gives Labour just a 6% lead.
If that’s the best Starmer can achieve under the current circumstances, ie highly negative headlines for the Tories on daily basis, what chance is there for him to win the next general election in two years time?
What are you actually expecting, there's been about a 12 point shift in the last year, you have a country that have a high level tory majority government, a 6 point lead is a huge thing, by your logic, why haven't the Lib Dems seen a rise, they're around the same percentage they were a year ago, surely they should be much higher if people are moving away from the tories?
And I’m fascinating how people who never vote Labour approve of him so much.
TJ stated he voted for them in the past, but as he's in Scotland he's backing the SNP, which have a lot of principles in line with labour.
I'm similar, when in Falkirk i actually voted Labour as the MP was decent (at the time!), but when in Perth i voted SNP, as the tories were the main threat. Down where i am (Yate & Thornbury) i vote Lib Dem, they are the only threat this time round, Labour are a distant third, it's called tactical voting for a reason, plus the Lib Dems actually do a lot around this area, unlike the tories.
It's the same reason why Labour contest seats harder in some areas than others, FPTP means areas like we're in are just wasted effort compared to other areas.
TJ stated he voted for them in the past, but as he’s in Scotland he’s backing the SNP, which have a lot of principles in line with labour.
Labour stand candidates in Scotland, TJ chooses not to vote for them. Which suggests that the satisfaction factor with Labour could be higher, from TJ's perspective.
Like me TJ doesn't see the leader of the Labour Party as the problem.
Although bizarrely he doesn't approve of me suggesting that Labour should perhaps have a significantly greater lead than 6% when the Tories are staggering from one negative headline to the next on a daily basis.
Is is really too much to expect Labour to have a double digit lead which would suggest a Labour majority government under the present circumstances?
And when was the bar dropped so low? When Starmer became leader?
Labour haven't had a double digit lead in the last decade, the tories have had way bigger leads, like 22 points when Starmer started as leader, that to me points to there being a lot more core tory voters, hence why i keep saying Starmer has to preach to a broader church to have a hope of winning the next election.
And when was the bar dropped so low?
When the SNP took Scotland.
Did anyone vote Labour at the last few elections thinking they could get an overall majority? I'd have loved Labour as the biggest party, and yes that was the best that anyone could realistically have hoped for. And still is in the short and medium turn. Only Labour can give us a PM that is not a Conservative, yet they can't hope to get more seats than all the other parties put together anytime soon. They'll need the votes (or abstentions) of the MPs of other parties to get anything done if they do "win" the next election... and that's not new, it's been the case for several general elections now. One of the reasons I like Clive Lewis, he can see this reality and wants to act accordingly.
When the SNP took Scotland.
Often stated with certainty but not actually supported by the evidence.
Okay, to be more clear then, since 2015 when the SNP overwhelming took Scotland as regards UK parliamentary seats. Labour have had (and still have) little to no chance of getting 50%+ of seats across the UK since then. The Tory support in England will have to completely impload for it to happen… and that won’t happen ‘till they are in opposition and have their hands taken off some of the levers… so several elections are needed.
As for your “boring details” that report is about what would happen if there were no UK MPs for Scotland. We have 50+ that can’t simply be ignored.