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@ernielynch, i was on about the actual Brexit vote in 2016, not the 2019 brexit policy, which was basically a stable door policy that had no real hope, the bigger concern was a no deal brexit.
Who’s talking about that?
DazH mentioned Corbyn not currently being part of the PLP.
Starmer on BBC Breakfast being as wishy washy and lawyer-like as possible when it comes to energy bills.
Don't upset the shareholders with your answer Sir Starmer. If you're smart you will see the system is broken. Stop supporting a broken system?
People might actually vote for that.
If you’re smart you will see the system is broken. Stop supporting a broken system?
If you have a look at his website you will see that he couldn't be any clearer.
"Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders." - Sir Keir Starmer
The electoral consequences of that policy shift, which was championed by Starmer, can be seen by how badly did in specifically leave areas in 2019 compared to 2017.
Hardly Starmer’s fault that a large proportion of his party’s core voters are backwards-looking self-obsessed elderly racists. It became clear when votes shifted to Tory that they only voted for what they thought would give them the best outcome for themselves, not the good of everyone or the poorest.
How do people like that get to be a MP?
By being the tory candidate than people voted for more than any other parties candidate. People generally vote for the party not the MP which is why where I live we must have 2 particularly ****y tory MPs in Desomnd Swayne and Christopher Chope.
Hardly Starmer’s fault that a large proportion of his party’s core voters are backwards-looking self-obsessed elderly racists.
Yup. If it's not Corbyn's fault then it's voters fault for being stupid.
Or someone else.
But definitely not Starmer's fault.
However badly Labour do it can't possibly be the responsibility of Starmer.
@kerley I just imagine there are loads of people trying to be the Labour/Tory candidate in every constituency.
Tbf I actually know better - most, nearly all, Labour/Tory councillors I've met have been terrible. Plaid Cymru councillors nearly all very good.
Surely he mentioned that his dad was a toolmaker?
So was mine (he's retired now) and his political views are not something I would aspire to nor would I make a big song and dance about it. Major problem for my toolmaker was a lack of empathy and understanding that not everyone's skills and motivations are the same.
Major problem for my toolmaker was a lack of empathy ...
Perhaps like Starmer's father your dad was bitter and had a chip on his shoulder about being a toolmaker?
“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that”
- Sir Keir Starmer
It is strange that Starmer agrees his father "was right" to think that people looked down on him.
I guess for someone as middle-class as Starmer it is reasonable to assume that people look down on factory workers, certainly in the social circles that he generally moves in.
Although when sharing a pint with the lads down the pub I am sure it is a source of much pride.
Perhaps he just looked enviously at welders or boilermakers and their increased social status in the pub due to working with burny things?
According to Starmer the shamefulness of it all was working "on the factory floor".
What he really means is: don't look down on people but congratulate them when they know their place.
Do we know if this contempt is reserved purely for people who work 'on the factory floor', which sounds charmingly retro, or whether it extends to non-1970's jobs like working in a call centre or driving a delivery van for Amazon?
Is there some kind of easy to reference status/contempt chart, running in descending order?
It is strange that Starmer agrees his father “was right” to think that people looked down on him.
Starmer's quote very obviously means that Starmer elder was right in his thinking that people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. The fact you pretend not to understand makes discussion impossible.
(^^^Father Jack on the other hand genuinely may not understand. It's hard to tell 🙂 )
Is there some kind of easy to reference status/contempt chart, running in descending order?
Dunno. He only mentions that his father was right to think that people looked down on him for working in a factory.
Is there some kind of easy to reference status/contempt chart, running in descending order?
I'll have a copy please
Was his work on the factory floor not bossing people around since he owned the factory? Sort of bloke who's wear a chore coat and a tie.
Starmer’s quote very obviously means that Starmer elder was right in his thinking that people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor.
I understand totally. You apparently didn't fully read my post :
I guess for someone as middle-class as Starmer it is reasonable to assume that people look down on factory workers, certainly in the social circles that he generally moves in.
“Despite being a skilled toolmaker throughout his working life, my dad thought people looked down on him because he worked on the factory floor. He was right about that”
Was he right about that? Which people looked down on a skilled toolmaker? Was he hanging around with Dominic Cummings' dads crew?
It is strange that Starmer agrees his father “was right” to think that people looked down on him.
Stop making things up to start arguments.
I guess for someone as middle-class as Starmer it is reasonable to assume that people look down on factory workers, certainly in the social circles that he generally moves in.
Some middle class people look down on manual workers (possibly not realising that some on the factory floor earn more than managers, whatever, different topic), and some don't. I don't. Whatever, Starner says his dad was right to think that some people looked down on him because of his job. Does this say anything negative about starmer the younger?
When you say "making things up" nick do you mean providing precise quotes with quotation marks?
And when you say "to start arguments" are you suggesting avoiding arguments on a thread about Sir Keir Starmer?
Or am I "making up stuff" again?
Whatever, Starner says his dad was right to think that some people looked down on him because of his job. Does this say anything negative about starmer the younger?
Well it is obvious from the quote that Rodney Starmer had some sort of issue throughout his working life about people looking down him, is Sir Keir wrong to apparently validate that attitude?
I would say yes. Throughout my working life I have worked on building sites as a skilled tradesman. I know for certain that some people look down on me because that's what they do - they look down on building workers. Do I give a ****?
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I don't. And I don't recall that being an issue for any other builder worker I have ever encountered.
But perhaps it is different for factory workers?
Have you thought of getting into property development?
But perhaps it is different for factory workers?
So starmer should have said that his dad shouldn't have given a shit? I mean fair enough. But just because building workers don't care about attitudes in this country to highly skilled manual work, doesn't mean that these attitudes aren't a problem.
And that's too many negatives in one sentence for me. I now need to do some non-skilled non-manual work.
So starmer should have said that his dad shouldn’t have given a shit?
Well I'm not entirely sure why Starmer felt he needed to tell the world that his dad had some sort of problem with people looking down on him.
But perhaps Bill hit the nail on the head earlier :
What he really means is: don’t look down on people but congratulate them when they know their place.
He only mentions that his father was right to think that people looked down on him for working in a factory.
Whichever way you interpret Starmer's view of his dad it's still the same 'aspirational party' bollocks that Yvette Cooper pushed in her leadership campaign which failed miserably. In short, working people should aspire to be 'better', and the labour party should help them do that. That way the labour party doesn't have to dirty it's hands with the difficult and messy job of defending the working people who don't have the opportunity or ability get 'better'.
Well I’m not entirely sure why Starmer felt he needed to tell the world that his dad had some sort of problem with people looking down on him.
That's a contortion. It's obvious the quote indicated that it's the people doing the looking down who are the problem.
But perhaps Bill hit the nail on the head earlier :
Perhaps? That would be an ecumenical matter.
Total bullshit and the very definition of trolling there Ernie. It's blindingly obvious that Starmer was referring to class prejudice and that people did/do look down on shop floor workers and that's a big problem. Blatantly not Starmer looking down on his father, because he doesn't.
When you say “making things up” nick do you mean providing precise quotes with quotation marks?
That are misquoted deliberately in order to misrepresent them, yes stop doing that in order to provoke arguments.
Again; criticise Starmer for the things he does, not for (the list grows ever longer) his peripheral (at best along with every other Labour MP) participation in the PLP rejection of Corbyn in 2016 (6 years ago now), or his lack of consent of how his education was provided to him as a child, or now what you think Starmer thinks of his own class status
Most, if not all the regular participants on this thread think that Starmer isn't doing well, All this dull sideshow of pettiness does is to continually signal that you dislike him, which we're already aware of.
It’s obvious the quote indicated that it’s the people doing the looking down who are the problem.
Yeah I get that. If you think people looking down on you is a problem.
It's not a problem for me or anyone else I know. But maybe it should be?
Blatantly not Starmer looking down on his father, because he doesn’t.
Erm, I didn't suggest for a moment that Starmer was looking down on his father.
Perhaps it's you that's doing the trolling.
Yes you did
I guess for someone as middle-class as Starmer it is reasonable to assume that people look down on factory workers, certainly in the social circles that he generally moves in.
A deniable "guilt by association" slur but the inference is clear
it’s the people doing the looking down who are the problem.
Yeah I get that. If you think people looking down on you is a problem.
We're saying different things. You seem to be saying you think negative attitudes in this country to people who do manual work are not a problem, because you personally and every building worker you've known don't experience this as a problem. But maybe you're not saying that? it's hard to tell through the ironic tone.
My first job was as a wages and costs clerk in an engineering company. And the toolmakers were very aloof and obviously thought themselves as the elites of the factory floor. But it was made clear to me by my older colleagues that us suit wearing office workers were a step above "all" the shop floor workers. I didn't really get it, doing the wages I was aware they earned 3x my salary dirty hands or not.
I don't have a fish to fry in this debate.
Can we get back to how Starmer is doing a vapid job?
Some stuff the government won't do but Labour could offer up:
As much as it is incomprehensible that the Opposition is not arguing for my alternative.
Starmer picking up a £2k pay rise and refusing to demand £15ph minimum wage illuminates his position on inequality. He's quick enough to demand more is spent on arms. You'd really have to be an intellectual acrobat to support this worm.
Didn't ha say in 2020 that MPs shouldn't have a pay rise and again a couple of months ago?
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1511033259987197961?t=hr7ParZeD0u_ib0XgwqdFg&s=19
Starmer at 2 years polling/favourability below Corbyn.
Could he have guaged the public mood more incorrectly.
No Brexit, No scathing MSM, No constant AS uproar. Covid deaths + Economy mismanagement + partygate. Etc.
May will be real interesting.
(The Cameron one does make me physically sick though.)
Starmer at 2 years polling below Corbyn.
That's how you chose to interpret that graph, with one data point? What conclusion do you draw from that?
That's how Britain Elects have framed it. Have I missed something?
That’s how you chose to interpret that graph, with one data point? What conclusion do you draw from that?
I don't need a graph to know he's missing the mark.
That’s how you chose to interpret that graph, with one data point? What conclusion do you draw from that?
My interpretation is that he enjoyed an initial bounce from an inclusive leadership campaign and being Not Jeremy, but has since slid, presumably because he has offered so little else.
I posted this two years ago, on page 2 of this thread:
My principal objection to Starmer is that he is as dull as ditchwater. I think he would be an effective leader in the managerial sense, but in terms of getting people enthused to vote for him, I’m not so sure. He will also need to develop an offer that appeals to the lost voters across the north, without which Labour has only permanent opposition.
I think Nickc- the relevance is it's two years today since he became Leader.
I see a page on a single quote without context, having come through the apprenticeship to skilled worker route I can say in my life skilled workers are as bitchy as anyone, there was a pecking order, I.e. joiners, sparkys, mechanical, etc and you had your levels of craft. Above all though was the engineer, in the office with a degree, still see the technician vs engineer debate these days, god knows why.
As for the current starmer is an empty suit, again I ask the simple question, who is it be alternative to go into the next election for labour?