Craig Murray on Starmer and Saville
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/how-the-establishment-functions/
It is also very interesting how unanimously the Establishment has decided to protect Keir Starmer.
Well, there’s my opinion of Murray sinking like a stone.
It draws a clear distinction and shows exactly who’s side they’re on
You seriously think 200 quid a year is going to make people think labour are on their side? This isn't a comms problem, it's a people not being able to heat their homes problem.
Daz. We all know what your answer to everything is
I guarantee if people were on the streets throwing petrol bombs this problem would be solved very quickly. There's nothing politicians fear more than law and order breaking down.
Short termism has screwed eveything. Windfall taxes, Vat cuts - any way to preserve the failed market fits perfectly within the Labour or Tory framework.
Nobody actually wants to offer radical solutions.
Exactly what we need.
(BoE likely to raise interest rates again choosing yet again the incorrect lever with the economy.)
What a farce. Two Neolibral parties fighting to save a system that is so busted, corrupt and distorted by tweaking bits here and there.
But yeah Starmer was great in PMQs.
You seriously think 200 quid a year is going to make people think labour are on their side? This isn’t a comms problem, it’s a people not being able to heat their homes problem.
Talk about band-aid.
There is only one way out and that is to nationalise energy supply – certainly if you want any sort of future and a fairer approach to pricing.
Well only if you nationalise Norway and the UAE
Well only if you nationalise Norway and the UAE
But we were told that the markets operate so perfectly? Deliver the lowest prices, fantastic efficiency- great service to consumers.
The original Green New Deal document form 2008/10 - had this future very much in its sights. When the Tories tore it up and offered a flacid alternative.
Don't blame Norway or UAE for lack of historic UK government investment going forward in its own energy.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1489200827831042058?s=20&t=ZW4hlUaplNCoZ3MnRwRL4A
Well, there’s my opinion of Murray sinking like a stone.
Why?
But we were told that the markets operate so perfectly? Deliver the lowest prices, fantastic efficiency- great service to consumers.
The price rises will drive decarbonisation of heat faster than anything else will.
As for the markets, which one? The call centre and wholesale price hedging one or the international global gas prices?
The price rises will drive decarbonisation of heat faster than anything else will.
Than general lack of investment in our future - over the last 12 years or so.
As for the markets, which one? The call centre and wholesale price hedging one or the international global gas prices?
No, you tell me. You tell me how energy companies going to the wall is good for consumers.
I'm not a proponent of these markets.
The original Green New Deal document form 2008/10 – had this future very much in it sights. When the Tories tore it up and offered a flacid alternative.
Don’t blame Norway or UAE for lack of historic UK government investment going forward in its own energy..
Pretty much exactly what Rachael Reeves is saying in parliament at the moment
Pretty much exactly what Rachael Reeves is saying in parliament at the moment
Late.
I'm not blaming them, the price is the price and a nationalised supplier would still have to pay it. But I'd agree a nationalised generation/transmission provider could do more on renewables and infrastructure.
I’m not blaming them, the price is the price and a nationalised supplier would still have to pay it.
Although its also when was the price the price?
A major issue for the UK is that our ultra efficient utility companies got rid of most of that pointless gas storage hence making it hard to wait out a bad period.
No, you tell me. You tell me how energy companies going to the wall is good for consumers.
Generators aren't going to the wall, it's retailers. It's evidence that the sector suffered from weak regulation. Sort that out and there will be new entrants.
I’m not blaming them, the price is the price and a nationalised supplier would still have to pay it. But I’d agree a nationalised generation/transmission provider could do more on renewables and infrastructure.
True. But we are talking about a retrospective problem.
Governments can subsidise, and do - failed markets. Look at the banks 2008. But they only do it at the time of collapse.
Generators aren’t going to the wall, it’s retailers. It’s evidence that the sector suffered from weak regulation. Sort that out and there will be new entrants
Why regulate a market as opposed to not just do away with the market?
The very fact you need to have regulation in a market is evidence that it doesn't work. Especially when talking about essential services.
Look at the state of the Water 'Suppliers'. Zero competition. I don't see the benefit to consumers.
Generators aren’t going to the wall, it’s retailers. It’s evidence that the sector suffered from weak regulation. Sort that out and there will be new entrants.
Apologies - do we not call energy companies in this context - the retailers?
The Tories lending you £200 to pay your energy bill!
FFS.
Why regulate a market as opposed to not just do away with the market?
Ridiculous isn't it. We're so ideologically wedded to market economics that we invent fake ones when they're not necessary. Same goes for the NHS. Of course we all know the answer to why this happens, because friends of the government and people in the city get to take their slice.
The Tories lending you £200 to pay your energy bill!
It's actually worse than that. They're directly giving your energy supplier £200 on your behalf, which you'll then have to pay back.
Subsidising corporate profits yet again
A major issue for the UK is that our ultra efficient utility companies got rid of most of that pointless gas storage hence making it hard to wait out a bad period.
This is bigger than any price blip that could be mitigated by storage
Generators aren’t going to the wall, it’s retailers. It’s evidence that the sector suffered from weak regulation. Sort that out and there will be new entrants.
Retailers are failing because it's costing them more to buy energy than they're allowed to charge domestic customers.
If we’re going to magically get rid of all markets in energy production, should we just turn off all our interconnects with other countries? I’m all for UK energy producers and suppliers being state owned, but there is a limit to what that would achieve in terms of costs and energy security. We need to work with other countries, there would still be a large market element to our energy production, supply and use.
We need to work with other countries, there would still be a large market element to our energy production, supply and use.
The point is that the govt could subsidise prices more effectively if it owned the supply and was negotiating the price with external markets.
Oh, I agree... but it doesn't do away with markets entirely, it just places the government between us and a market for an essential good (something I would like to see happen). There would still be political decisions to make about the rising cost of energy, who pays, when they pay, how much they pay, how they/we pay. There would still be market forces to deal with.
I'd like to see fossil fuel prices rise, but income and wealth redistribution used as the way we stop the less well off freezing while the rich burn their money.
Just nationalising energy supply would risk the government subsidising fossil fuel burning even more than they currently do, to keep prices lower for all domestic users to win votes.
The point is that the govt could subsidise prices more effectively if it owned the supply and was negotiating the price with external markets.
Really?
Sell wholesale gas at less than market rates?
Have enough production to influence the market rate?
So Starmer offers 4 quid and the Tories come up with 7 pound 30p. Campaigning for less is maybe not the best way to garner votes.
That's Numberwang!
Sell wholesale gas at less than market rates?
Yeah pretty much. The govt would still have to buy at market rates, but the price to the end consumer could be lower. Govt subsidises the price of things all the time and can afford it via their unique position as a currency issuer.
Aaaah... are we printing money again?
Fire up the presses!
Weimar Republic here we come! 🤣
Aaaah… are we printing money again?
We've always been printing money FFS. Read the book and cure your wilful ignorance.
We’ve always been printing money FFS.
But it only works as a solution when the rest of the world thinks you are good for the money you are printing.
Those days are gone. 1
Another post from the Richard Littlejohn school of politics/economics.
Binners do you only think printing money is ok when it goes straight to the banks/the rich. What did you think quantative easing was?
https://www.cnbc.com/id/49031991
Can you point out where I mentioned I thought bailing out the banks with quantitive easing was a good idea?
The way it was done was an utter disgrace. We once again just subsidised the profits of rapacious corporations and the obscene lifestyles and incomes of bankers and got the square root of **** all in return. Corporate socialism. As missed opportunities for economic reform go, I doubt anything will ever come close. I certainly hope not!
But that doesn't make it any more credible to think you can solve complex financial issues by just firing up printing presses.Thats ridiculous, no matter what book Daz has read
This is bigger than any price blip that could be mitigated by storage
It wouldnt solve it but it would help mitigate it to some degree. As indeed it would if things kick off in Ukraine.
However resilience to shocks costs money and hence is best cut and the cash redirected to management bonuses and dividends.
But that doesn’t make it any more credible to think you can solve complex financial issues by just firing up printing presses
You know that "printing money" is figurative, right?
We’re back to that? All governments “print money”. That doesn’t mean there are no constrictions on what they can do.
Anyway, some light relief…
https://twitter.com/mattgreencomedy/status/1488879535785455616?s=21
But that doesn’t make it any more credible to think you can solve complex financial issues by just firing up printing presses.
On the contrary it's the *primary* method of solving problems like this. It's just how fiat money works. The world you imagine ended in 1971 when they got rid of the gold standard and money became inherently valueless. Now any government with it's own currency funds all of it's activity by 'firing up the printing presses'. We're lucky to have one of the most stable and widely used currencies in the world so the UK can do an awful lot by leveraging it's currency. That's why we avoided financial collapse in 2008 and why we avoided a depression after covid. We can also use the same power to mitigate the impact of other crises like energy price spikes etc.
The govt would still have to buy at market rates, but the price to the end consumer could be lower.
You are not nationalising UK production?
You are not nationalising UK production?
Of course I would. As we all know though a lot of our energy comes from abroad and we can't nationalise that, so the govt would then have to use it's financial power and leverage to negotiate prices with foreign suppliers.
Indeed. We could send the crack team of international trade negotiation all stars that brought us brexit
Don't forget that we sell internationally as well. Fluctuations in supply/demand happen in all countries. This will only increase as we all move to renewables. Hence the importance of the .... oh yes, we're not part of it anymore ... carry on ...
kelvin
Full MemberWe’re back to that? All governments “print money”. That doesn’t mean there are no constrictions on what they can do.
While that's definitely true, we don't have much of a clue what the constraints actually are. Do too much and things get crazy, but then in every historical example things were crazy beforehand also. The only thing that I think we know with certainty is that every time modern governments print more money (under whatever brand), critics instantly talk about hyperinflation, and it has never happened. In fact we've never seen any irrefutable link between governments printing money and inflation, at all.
Personally I do believe there's a limit- if only because there comes a point where the entire situation just gets so ridiculous that nobody can really believe it and if you do it any more you have to stop pretending the economy works. But it's clearly way higher than has been explored so far.
