It seems to be something on the “left” that they keep on forgetting who the enemy actually is
I would love to say that is hilarious, but binners is much better at comedy than you TJ, leave that sort of stuff to him.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'm willing to hold my nose regarding the defection.
The time to play nicely to get the Tories out has long gone. They need to go,I don't care about the niceties, the "moral" choices.
Get. Them. Out.
Anything, legal, that aides their demise is fine by me.
I'll worry about the the likes of Wakefield once Labour is in office.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m willing to hold my nose regarding the defection.
I very much suspect that you are not alone. Usually there is an avalanche of hatred directed at right-wing anti-asylum Tory brexiteers on stw, the silence in the case Wakeford says a lot.
What Starmer should have done of course was to tell him to **** off, not least because it makes no difference to the Tories huge majority, but also because it clearly is a stain on Starmer's party that a right-wing Tory should so effortlessly move into the Labour Party.
Although the reality is that there is probably very little difference politically between Starmer and Wakeford, which according to a few on here is apparently a good thing...... Labour becoming more like the Tories.
It seems to be something on the “left” that they keep on forgetting who the enemy actually is
so in Scotland we have labour aligning themselves with the tories and cheering on tory wins in the GE - against the SNP who are to the left of the labour party on most issues - and you think they have not forgotten who the enemy is?
We get the welcoming a brexiteer tory and spending gawd knows how much time and energy on infighting - rather than taking on the tories - and you think they have not forgotten who the enemy is?
In case yo have forgotten the enemy is the tory party 😉
Verbal and 'logical' gymnastics; so much dancing on the head of a pin.
Anything that moves the tories - and johnson specifically - closer to the exit gets my unquestioning and unequivocal support.
It's about winning - not taking the moral high ground, if there is such a thing.
Other than that - I'll leave you chaps/chapesses to disappear further down the rabbit hole.
The time to play nicely to get the Tories out has long gone.
By becoming them?
Can someone please explain what qualifies this person to be a Labour MP? Given that you can get kicked out of the Labour Party for having previously voted Green. It's utter madness.
So tell me Kelvin, what is your view concerning Starmer warmly welcoming a right-wing Tory brexiteer who votes against the rights of asylum seekers and likes to proudly display the union jack?
I’ve already said that I want more Tory MPs to cross the floor, and I want Tory voters to see that and consider voting Labour. I also want MPs and voters alike to reconsider their views on asylum seekers, immigrants, the low paid, the unpaid and others used as the targets by the Tories to gain power and divide and rule. I want them to change their minds, their attitudes, and their votes. Stop being Tories. Stop voting Tory. Stop blaming those in need. Start supporting those in need. Start voting Labour. Start supporting Labour.
TJ, I agree, outs abhorrent what Labour is doing in Scotland.
I very much suspect that you are not alone. Usually there is an avalanche of hatred directed at right-wing anti-asylum Tory brexiteers on stw, the silence in the case Wakeford says a lot.
I can't but agree, I suspect I wouldn't like to hear Wakefield's opinions on Brexit, immigration and a slew of other matters.
However, if he has the potential to be a nail in a Boris sized box I'll repent my sins later.
Labour at its absolute worst would still be better than this absolute shower of shysters.
@kelvin er...
In 2020, Mr Wakeford co-sponsored and voted for a private members bill that would "enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes".
These are my principles...
Ernie - we may be at cross purposes - I didn't mean the left of the labour party tho at times they spend more energy on infighting that fighting the tories - I meant the left in a more general way - so the labour party in all its broad church and including the various splinter parties. If they all got together and worked together we would never have another tory government but they waste so much energy and effort fighting each other that they give the tories a free ride. this thread shows my point exactly
I'm sorry TJ I thought it was an attempt at a comedy on your part when you accused the left of forgetting who the enemy is.
I had no idea you were being serious when it is so clearly the right-wing that is hellbent on treating Labour Party members as the enemy, instead of focusing on the Tories.
so the labour party in all its broad church
So broad it now encompasses the right wing of the conservative party.
“enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes”.
That would be great. What are we talking, a % of constituents petitioning for a bye election? Sounds great. Can it apply to those who lose the parliamentary whip as well? We could do with some bye elections this year. ASAP. The more the better. Especially in seats only narrowly won by Conservative Party candidates in 2019. Bring it on.
this thread shows my point exactly
Pages and pages of it. And it’ll never end while we have FPTP. Even the Democrats managed to briefly unite to win an election. Labour never will. It needs to split, but it can’t because our election system means they would then be even less likely to be in government then they do looking like cats fighting in a sack. “But it’s just those on the Left of the party who are the problem”, “it’s just the centrists that are problem” … it’s obviously both, as they battle over a party only forced to stay together by FPTP.
The point ------>>>>>>>>>
You
Inside Croydon, posted on the interweb, looks like an invaluable, independent and impartial news source Ernie.
Thanks for introducing me to that
Reading it, I’m absolutely amazed I’ve not come across it before
Do you know if they plan any expansion of their unique reportage beyond Croydon?
Palestine would be the obvious next step, but tomorrow? The rest of the Middle East? Surely the world?
Do you know if they’ve any plans to report live on the kidnapping of Pilate’s wife?
Oh… and as for my own opinions on what’s happened today, I won’t bother. I’ll just echo what Kelvin’s said. And I live in Bury (north not south, so I’m even more northern. Imagine that). It maybe looks a bit different up here than it does in London (or Islington North at least)
I want more Tory MPs to cross the floor
Hopefully enough so that Labour can form a majority government.
Or maybe Labour MPs could join the Tories? That would have the same effect, and it would probably be easier.
After all there's no point getting hung up on ideology.
The point
You were making out that he’s a hypocrite. Something very easy to do now I imagine. I was jokingly praising his support of a bill which I presume you think means he should now act as if it was made law, even though it wasn’t. Right now, I wish the bill had been passed, and I wish he was facing a by-election, and that it was only one of many by-elections such a change in the law would probably be delivering. That just because I think it would sink both Johnson and his party fast. My more considered long term opinion is that it would give the whips too much power. After all, it is subjective and on a case by case basis whether a party has moved away from the electorate in a constituency, or the candidate has, when an MP leaves a party.
Hopefully enough so that Labour can form a majority government.
That’s one unlikely way to get a fresh election. I’ll take a reduced majority and more of the public thinking about replacing their Tory MPs, preferably with Labour ones, but I’ll admit to not being all that fussy.
Or maybe Labour MPs could join the Tories? That would have the same effect, and it would probably be easier.
Only if you think a glass of gin with a splash of tonic in it is in effect the same as a glass of tonic with a shot of gin in it.
Doubt there will be anymore defectors now and personally I don't want any.
Wakefield is here though, it's done for good or bad and I'm content to let the other back benchers tear the Tory party apart from the inside.
If his move has caused more of them to defend Boris as a survival instinct (as reported), all the better. They get themselves further tainted by association.
Hopefully enough so that Labour can form a majority government.
Or maybe Labour MPs could join the Tories? That would have the same effect, and it would probably be easier.
After all there’s no point getting hung up on ideology
Or maybe you accept that now Brexit is apparently ‘done’, normal service is resumed and you can only win from the centre, as Boris is now finding out
Ideology is not really for most people, from whichever direction
Inside Croydon, posted on the interweb, looks like an invaluable, independent and impartial news source Ernie.
Yup, it is binners, fiercely independent and utterly merciless. No one can expect any favours from them.
Glad you found the link interesting, I'll post more if I see any that I think you might also find interesting.
Although now that you don't post on this thread anymore I don't know whether you will see them?
Or have I gone too far back and you've changed your mind since yesterday?
it’s done for good or bad
Including whether he is the Labour Party candidate next general election?
Blimey that was quick. It's not surprising that he was so keen to join Labour, specially as the seat will almost certainly go to Labour next election anyway.
Ah you were trying to be funny. 😂😐
I live in Bury
Is that what you call Ramsbottom when you're trying to sound more 'salt of the earth'? Even when you're not posting here any more.
Including whether he is the Labour Party candidate next general election?
Honestly not being argumentative here and really not shopping for a "fight" as I'm fully aware of my hypocritical position but also prepared to live with it at this juncture. Get them out.
Yep, if it transpires he is fighting the seat in 2 years I'm ok with that.
My single concern is that he must win the seat, no more. As long as that is the outcome I'll continue to hold my nose.
Blimey that was quick. It’s not surprising that he was so keen to join Labour, specially as the seat will almost certainly go to Labour next election anyway.
Bury South has always been Labour, but was quite unique at the last election.
It’s not referred to as Manchester’s kosher moat for nothing. It has an enormous Jewish population (one of the largest in Europe) and guess what… they weren’t massively enamoured with Jeremy Corbyn. Who knows why? It’s a complete mystery
I think the polling just published today is more reflective of the constituency than the result of the last election and you’re probably best looking at as more a judgement on local opinions to the labour party, pre and post Magic Grandad
I think the polling just published today is more reflective of the constituency than the result of the last election and you’re probably best looking at as more a judgement on local opinions to the labour party, pre and post Magic Grandad
I know you think that he’s the messiah and some kind of living god, but the Jewish population of Prestwich passed their judgement on Grandad at the last election and I personally credit their opinion more than the Corbyn fan club in North London
This is the extent of the magic grandad effect from the last election and now. Much as Boris has been a contributing factor, so has the beardy allotment dweller
Whichever way you try to spin it, there has been a big shift in the opinion of the large Jewish population of the Labour since Grandad has departed
Quite frankly IMHO they’re the only people who are qualified to pass judgement to pass comment on the Labour Party and antisemitism
https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1483774295956496389?s=21
Binners, please stop bringing up Corbyn, it’s 2022 now!
Thank you binners for taking so much time explaining in great detail how the seat might go to Labour next election, I guess my comment "specially as the seat will almost certainly go to Labour next election anyway" didn't provide clear evidence that I was aware of that.
Interesting comment about the "beardy allotment dweller" btw, I guess the great thing about Starmer is that he has neither a beard nor an allotment.
Binners, please stop bringing up Corbyn, it’s 2022 now
I’m merely explaining the unique position of Bury South at the last election
I live in Bury. I have lots of Jewish friends, who told me their opinions. I’m merely explaining the massive part Corbyn had in losing this previously safe Labour seat.
It may look very different in Islington, obviously, but I don’t have much interest in how it looks from down there. I’d rather deal with reality.
Yes binners you were pointing out that, according to you anyway, it's the fault of the Jewish community that Labour failed to win Bury. Presumably if it didn't have such a large Jewish it would have returned a Labour member of parliament.
But you ought to be careful though mate, you could get expelled from the Labour Party for blaming Jews for the poor election result.
I live in Bury. I have lots of Jewish friends, who told me their opinions. I’m merely explaining the massive part Corbyn had in losing this previously safe Labour seat.
Hard agree. I resigned my party membership appalled at the comments from the aftermath the EHRC, having concluded their inquiry: "“We found specific examples of harassment, discrimination and political interference in our evidence,” the EHRC said in its foreword, adding: “But equally of concern was a lack of leadership within the Labour party on these issues, which is hard to reconcile with its stated commitment to a zero-tolerance approach to antisemitism.” and of course Corbyn's obfuscation and vacillation over Brexit. I made sure that the person on the end of the phone at Labour HQ made careful note of my reasons for cancellation.
In January 2020, I applied to rejoin. I'm happy to report that I'm paying my subs again.
But you ought to be careful though mate, you could get expelled from the Labour Party for blaming Jews for the poor election result
Except I’m not blaming the Jews though, am I? I’m squarely laying the blame at the feet of Jeremy Corbyn who fostered an environment that made them about as welcome as a fart in a space suit
You can’t do that then be surprised when you lose the seat
I’m sure everything looks different from Islington North though. That being the centre of the ****ing universe, after all
Their opinions are obviously twice or four times as valid as us poor uneducated fools who actually live in places like Bury
What would we know? We defer to your superior, patronising, ill-informed condescension obviously more informed position
Maybe London Jewish members are different, or, much more likely, left-wing Jewish members are different.
The only Jewish Labour Party members I've talked to or heard talking in meetings have been strong Corbyn supporters.
But then I rarely go to meetings where right-wingers are likely to speak so I am perfectly willing to accept that right-wing Jews might have different opinions.
I don't subscribe to the view that all people of a certain race think and act in the same way. I judge people on the basis of them being individual human beings, not on the basis of their race.
Except I’m not blaming the Jews though, am I?
Yes you are, you specifically said that the reason Bury went Tory last election was because of a large Jewish community.
I assume that as a Labour Party member you voted Labour so did not agree with the (alleged) conclusion of the Jewish community.
You are blaming them. People have been expelled from the Labour Party for less than that. Claiming "I wasn't being racist" isn't good enough. You blamed Jews for voting incorrectly.
The only Jewish Labour Party members I’ve talked to or heard talking in meetings have been strong Corbyn supporters.
Well maybe have a walk around Prestwich - one of the biggest Jewish communities in Europe - and ask people what they think of Jeremy Corbyn
You don’t really need too. The last election in this previously safe Labour seat compared to today’s polling tells you everything you need to know
Like most people in London, of all political persuasions, it might be worth acknowledging that other parts of the country actually exist
You voted Labour didn't you?
Did you vote Labour because you aren't Jewish?
That sounds very racist.
Yes you are, you specifically said that the reason Bury went Tory last election was because of a large Jewish community
They expressed their opinion at the ballot box. Specifically about the culture in the Labour Party under grandad
You or I can say what we like. It’s their opinion that matters. Ours is frankly irrelevant. We don’t get to judge as we aren’t on the receiving end
Carry on defending Corbyn if you like. You’re a fully paid up member of the cult, after all
Maybe come up to Whitefield and try it there? Can I watch?
You voted Labour didn’t you?
Did you vote Labour because you aren’t Jewish?
That sounds very racist.
Racist? Say what now?
I can’t even comprehend what that nonsensical gibberish is even meant to mean, comrade
I take it that it’s an insult, but I’m just guessing.
Who knows?
Carry on defending Corbyn if you like.
I have done no such thing. Are you hallucinating?
I am challenging your claim that all Jews share the same political opinion.
And I have questioned whether you voted Labour last election because you aren't Jewish.
I am challenging your claim that all Jews have the same political opinion
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest the vast majority share the same opinion of Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. Certainly in this part of the world. The election result and recent polling would support that
And I have questioned whether you voted Labour last election because you aren’t Jewish
Eh? What on earth are you on about? Do I also have to vote Labour as I’m not Nigerian?
I voted Labour because I’m a Labour Party member and support the party even though at the last two elections I thought the ‘leader’ and all those around him, and all his disciples are… erm… shall we say “less than perfect”
We all know what the option is. We’re living it
Except I’m not blaming the Jews though, am I?
Yes you are, you specifically said that the reason Bury went Tory last election was because of a large Jewish community.
You voted Labour didn’t you?
Did you vote Labour because you aren’t Jewish?
That sounds very racist.
I'll be honest, I'm no fan of the way binners bangs on on this thread and the circular arguments it creates, but jeez Ernie, those two comments are utter bollocks to the point of trolling.
Ideology is not really for most people, from whichever direction
Lmfao.
If houses prices took a crunch let's see what the asset class thought about ideology.
It's just that most people ignore the poor and the associated problems of society unless it affects them directly.
I had no idea you were being serious when it is so clearly the right-wing that is hellbent on treating Labour Party members as the enemy, instead of focusing on the Tories.
As i said in my clarification - I did not mean the left of the labour party - I meant the whole of the left in UK politics - ie including the right wing of the labour party. Yes its the right of labour driving the useless and counter productive infighting now but as long as I have followed politics the infighting in the labour party and amongst the left of Uk politics has hampered the labour party.
Why the labour party is so hamstrung by infighting I do not understand but its been like that all my life. At times its been the right of the party as the aggressors, At times the left. Sometimes its even been sectarian in Scotland
Scottish labour is pretty much dead because of this as they allied themselves with the tories rather than making common ground with the SNP to fight the tories
Is that what you call Ramsbottom when you’re trying to sound more ‘salt of the earth’? Even when you’re not posting here any more.
He doesn't even live in the same constituency!
It's also worth remembering that the former MP - Ivan Lewis - was suspended from Labour over sexual misconduct allegations. He subsequently resigned and ran as an independent, splitting the Labour vote and even encouraging people to vote Tory.
But yeah, it's all Corbyn's fault of course.
Bury South has always been Labour
No it hasn’t, it was Tory from 83-97. Anyway aside from the obviously ridiculous spectacle of labour welcoming a right wing Tory c into it’s ranks, which bizarrely you lot think is great, Starmer’s politically naive ‘coup’ has done an amazing job of rallying Tory MPs behind the leader they were about to depose. Totally f*** clueless!
I have questioned whether you voted Labour last election because you aren’t Jewish.
sorry, I'm still meditating on this gem of a koan...
I just about get used now to the antikeirs mainly say the opposite of what they mean, and then it's an effortless jink, jink round a couple of corners and I'm lost again. Anyway, what was it about Corbyn?
Starmer’s politically naive ‘coup’ has done an amazing job of rallying Tory MPs behind the leader they were about to depose. Totally f****** clueless!
It was not Starmers coup although he could have told him to eff off
IMo this is good for labour - the longer the lying incompetent drunkard stays as leder the more damage he does to the tories d the better labours chances are at the next election
