I see Starmer said tonight that it’s labour’s patriotic duty to agree with the tories
Are you referring to the TV broadcast? If so that's some real selective interpretation to get that conclusion. I thought he came across OK. Said the right things and got a couple of subtle digs at the pm in. Yes, it wasn't electric or radical, but it wasn't the time for that.
duty to agree with the tories
Which Tories? The rebels, or the government? I’m glad that Labour are putting lives and NHS workers first, and didn’t go through the voting lobbies with the nuttiest of Conservative MPs. Shame on the LibDems as well.
Wasn't sure where to post this, but I'm glad Starmer backed Boris and not this fool
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/desmond-swayne-vaccine-passports-omicron-b1976083.html
I’m glad that Labour are putting lives and NHS workers first
As am I. But they should also have put workers first and they didn’t do that by refusing to demand increases to sick pay, and support for hospitality workers who might be laid off because of the new restrictions. They had a golden opportunity to win some concessions in these areas but instead they supported Boris with no questions or conditions.
3%?
Christ on a bendybus!
We’re in the middle of a pandemic with infection rates going mental and public health policy was about to be derailed by a gang of far right headbangers who exist in some insane alternative dimension where they’re seriously comparing these modest precautions to ‘Nazi Germany’
In the same way that a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day Boris has somewhat bizarrely found himself on the right side for once. It must be a pretty weird experience for him
Starmer has done exactly the right thing. If you thought he could do anything else, and hand victory to those gaggle of right wing libertarian lunatics, with the implications that would have for the country and the NHS in particular then you need your bumps feeling!
but instead they supported Boris with no questions or conditions.
Are you seriously suggesting that Labour could have voted against an issue which they consider to be of vital public health importance?
I don't think Labour voted today to support "Boris". They voted to support something which they believe is necessary at this present time during this pandemic.
dazh,
Your wing of the Labour party have had two stabs at it, failed once and then failed miserably, time to let the other wing have a go, unless you want to face eternal Tory rule.
He may have confirmed your suspicions but the suspicion he's trying to rouse with the public at large is that he might be Prime Minister material.
Thought he did quite well on the telly the other night, stealing all the Governments props and all. People could have ridiculed him, accusing him of looking like a fake PM with that set up but they aren't, perhaps because he pulled off the optics of looking more like a leader than the actual one.
Your wing of the Labour party have had two stabs at it, failed once and then failed miserably, time to let the other wing have a go, unless you want to face eternal Tory rule.
Out of curiosity why do you think Dazh "wing of the party" should behave any different from the right wing side of the party? Especially given the left of the party has the obvious incentive of noticing how much the overton windows shifts when it is handed to the right wingers.
People could have ridiculed him, accusing him of looking like a fake PM with that set up but they aren’t,
or people just didnt notice him at all.
Out of curiosity why do you think Dazh “wing of the party” should behave any different from the right wing side of the party?
Oh these votes, they should have done exactly the same as Starmer and most other Labour MPs did. It’s a shame some (and sadly Lucas as well) voted with the “it’s an imposition to have to have a Covid test to enter a busy social space for entertainment if you refuse the vaccines offered” nutters in the Conservative party.
Your wing of the Labour party have had two stabs at it, failed once and then failed miserably, time to let the other wing have a go, unless you want to face eternal Tory rule.
The damage done by your wing Inkster was incalculable. They were devastated when the Tories failed to win the 2017 general election and redoubled their efforts with endless attacks on the leader, briefing the Tory press, accusing their own party of being racist, stage-managed resignations, and generally providing endless ammunition to the Tories to secure a stunning victory for them in 2019.
And still your wing of the Labour Party relentlessly attacks and fights dazh's wing.
But you want to tell Dazh to focus on the Tories?
Edit : Btw Inkster your wing lost in 2010 and 2015. That didn't however motivate them to stand behind their leader afterwards. Other than to stab him in the back.
Wes Streeting made Javid look way out of his depth today, the way starmer is looking confident & in control compared to bozo
whats apparent is that currently Labour under Starmer is far more disciplined than the Tories under Johnson
This is working well for labour in the polls, but red wall seats , midlands, north east etc are not swinging back to labour in the same numbers they are elsewhere, it means that even tho on current polling labour would just nip a majority and a lot of big name Tories could be in trouble in metropolitain seats (eg including Johnsons seat!) its only the very tight margins in those red wall seats that mean theyd swing back to labour
whats also interesting is that more people now have an opinion on starmer, but still plenty havent made up their minds
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1470798019767513094
it means that even tho on current polling labour would just nip a majority
You mean they’d be the largest party in parliament, rather than getting a majority, yes?
sorry yes
Your wing of the Labour party have had two stabs at it, failed once and then failed miserably, time to let the other wing have a go, unless you want to face eternal Tory rule.
Sigh.
Your wing of Labour if ever elected offers a version of the Tory party that some of us don't particularly want.
So just getting into power with this lot will not offer enough to make a meaningful impact on society.
It will still continue the failed ideology that Tories set in motion. That appears to be their route to power.
Nothing to really get excited about then other than the superficial change from Tory to Labour in name only.
*If it happens* And I still don't think it will under the current set up.
Your wing of Labour if ever elected offers a version of the Tory party that some of us don’t particularly want.
I don't want that either but what if the majority (yes with the current system) decide that is what they want. That same group of voters who haven't wanted a Labour party since Blair.
What does that tell you about what sort of party the majority of voters want?
Democracy sucks when most people don't want what you do doesn't it...
Sigh.
Your wing of Labour if ever elected offers a version of the
ToryLabour party thatsomemost of us don’t particularly want.
FIFY
It’s the protest group response next isn’t it?
With Corbyn, Abbot, Long-Bailey, Butler and others voting against minimal public health measures now common across the continent, at a crucial moment in this pandemic… labelling them as looking like they want to lead a protest group, rather than people ready to govern, looks fair right now. Depressing.
Grandads eased himself back into his comfort zone, trooping through the lobby to vote alongside Desmond Swayne, Peter Bone and the rest of his Brexity fellow travellers
He’s probably getting all his info on the issue from his hatstand sibling
With Corbyn, Abbot, Long-Bailey, Butler and others voting against minimal public health measures now common across the continent, at a crucial moment in this pandemic
So voted for the main bill but not for vaccine passport/compulsory vaccines for NHS staff? Not quite "voting against minimal public health measures"
Former has unclear gains especially in the UK form. If you are going to do a job do it properly or not at all.
NHS compulsory vaccination also has some substantial pros and cons
Yep once again Corbyn voted in a measured and considered way.
As above vaccine passport as proposed sounds like a complete bodge.
Mandatory vaccines for NHS staff doesn't sit right with me either.
Yep once again Corbyn voted in a measured and considered way.
He voted with the most swivel eyed hard right of the Tories
So no, not considered at all
And NHS staff already have to have Hep B vaccinations, I did, I didn't cry about it
Labour voted to help try & slow the spread of a disease that will leave millions isolating over xmas, it was the right move and its something the vast majority of the public support
https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1470372889744617474?t=cZY_1bXC8TeTs1ljvVPEFQ&s=19
So voted for the main bill but not for vaccine passport/compulsory vaccines for NHS staff?
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1470822969010184192
TBH, I get why he voted that way, It's entirely consistent with his beliefs and that's fair enough, and he is after all, an Independent MP and can vote the way his conscious dictates.
So voted for the main bill but not for vaccine passport/compulsory vaccines for NHS staff? Not quite “voting against minimal public health measures”
Sorry, but vaccinated care and health service staff, and green passes with vaccination and/or test status for entertainment venues *is* minimal public health measures at this stage of the pandemic, and common across comparable countries. We should have introduced them before the summer to be ready for this wave (upon wave).
He voted with the most swivel eyed hard right of the Tories
Even swivel eyed loons can occasionally be correct if just for the wrong reasons.
I am not really sure of the value of that poll. In case you havent noticed the general public can vote for moronic things.
Its the normal halfarsed rubbish from Johnson to try and avoid doing anything actually effective.
As for vaccination. I guess I could go and look up a poll of the general public or I could pay attention to the RCGP, RCN etc all of whom whilst strongly in favour of vaccination arent in favour of it being compulsory. Still I am sure you are better informed.
Sorry, but vaccinated care and health service staff, and green passes with vaccination and/or test status for entertainment venues *is* minimal public health measures at this stage of the pandemic
Absolutely
NHS is already overwhelmed with regular winter + covid backlog
Any MPs pandering to the conspiracy theorists right now will be looking daft if we have to impose stricter measures
We already have vax passports/-ve lft for flying, did corbyn & the hard right object to that?
I am still trying to digest a position where person/entity A is a racist, yet person/entity B who accuses them of such is at fault for any fall-out from the racism? Unless I read that wrong, and to be clear I have no idea who is all in what faction just wanted to applaud the logical gymnastics achieved there.
Any MPs pandering to the conspiracy theorists right now will be looking daft if we have to impose stricter measures
Again its not just the conspiracy theorists but as far as I am aware every medical professional body who are dubious about compulsory vaccination not least because of their concerns about staff shortages. I would tend to listen to the experts here.
Its the normal halfarsed rubbish from Johnson to try and avoid doing anything actually effective.
And if Corbyn and his far right chums won't even support that, then they're certainly not going to support anything more comprehensive are they?
Cut it whichever way you like to try and excuse it, but Dianne Abbott and Jezza are absolutely aligned with Bill Cash and co on this
but as far as I am aware every medical professional body who are dubious about compulsory vaccination
I think that while on the face of it, the public statements tend to urge no compulsion, don't think for a minute that Docs and Nurses are united on this subject, they're as divided as the rest of the population. I can see that in their role as "union" the RCN and the BMA are making sure that their members aren't forced into anything by employers passing the buck, and that's entirely what they should be doing, but whether that's the right path in the middle of a public health disaster remains to be argued over.
but whether that’s the right path in the middle of a public health disaster remains to be argued over.
of course but its just a tad more complicated than the simple minded stuff being trotted out currently. The obvious starter for ten is if you are getting all panicky about the NHS and winter then what use are compulsory vaccinations by April?
Or for these vaccine passports. Cool how are they going to work in reality and how do you stop idiots gaming them? At which point does a vaccine get counted as no longer useful without the booster. Currently it looks like security theatre rather than something which actually helps.
Currently it looks like security theatre rather than something which actually helps.
Yeah there's always that, and I agree that folks will game it, but if enough folks do take it seriously and take up vaccines so that they feel secure to go to pubs and restaurants and nightclubs, then there's a benefit to that to everyone. It's not going to be perfect, but then it doesn't have to be, it just needs to be good enough.
Are you seriously suggesting that Labour could have voted against an issue which they consider to be of vital public health importance?
Of course not. I'm suggesting they should have put pressure on the govt to bolster the public health measures by sorting out sick pay and support for the hospitality industry, which are two of the major issues which prevent people from isolating.
Your wing of the Labour party have had two stabs at it, failed once
My wing of the party? I'm not even in the party. When I was I voted for Starmer on the basis of a bunch of lies. And to correct you, 'my' wing didn't fail, they were f***** over by your wing resulting in a tory govt lead by Boris. Everything that's happening now is a direct result of people on the right of the labour party doing everything in their power to prevent a Corbyn govt. The tories didn't defeat labour, the labour right wing did.
what use are compulsory vaccinations by April?
If you know you have to have it before April to continue in your NHS position, then why not come forward and get your first jab now? It can't be compulsory immediately, you have to give people time. Yes, this should have been sorted while things were relatively quiet when we removed restrictions before the summer... but we can't keep putting it off. Late? Yes. Vote against it because it's late? Makes little sense. Vote against it because of concerns about vaccination in the last hold outs in the health service? Protest vote by someone unprepared to be involved in the hard decisions.
If you know you have to have it before April to continue in your NHS position, then why not come forward and get your first jab now?
There is a rather obvious answer to that.
So what do you see as the gains here as compared to investing in the right ppe or ensuring the hospital air systems are properly filtrate or having proper staffing levels to allow for segregation of wards effectively?
Protest vote by someone unprepared to be involved in the hard decisions.
Sounds almost Johnsonist. I am not sure I would count it as a hard decision as opposed to a simplistic one.
as compared to investing in the right ppe or ensuring the hospital air systems are properly filtrate or having proper staffing levels to allow for segregation of wards effectively?
Er... what? Why does ensuring health staff are vaccinated prevent any of those things? Why is it either or? I really don't get your point there at all.
Er… what? Why does ensuring health staff are vaccinated prevent any of those things?
Lets put it a different way. Where was Johnsons speech about getting that done? We have hard solutions to the problem or we have a simplistic solution.
There are large discrepancies between regions and engaging properly with those areas with lower uptake and understanding and talking them round would have the obvious advantage that it can then be deployed on a wider scale.
Its worth considering why the Welsh and Scottish authorities havent followed Johnsons lead?
There was a good article in PE about it which showed it was anything but the obvious win claimed by some.
a simplistic solution
What simplistic solution? We had multiple new measures being voted on yesterday, as well as many existing measures put in place over the last year, and I suspect more measures will be required before this is all done with. There is no silver bullet. Having health care staff vaccinated (and mandating that) is just one part of the response, and is already being implemented across Europe and North America.
If you know you have to have it before April to continue in your NHS position, then why not come forward and get your first jab now? It can’t be compulsory immediately, you have to give people time.
First jab deadline is Feb 3rd to meet April deadline
I’m suggesting they should have put pressure on the govt to bolster the public health measures by sorting out sick pay and support for the hospitality industry, which are two of the major issues which prevent people from isolating.
Labour have been talking that up all week, its not getting much coverage in the press, think it was in Starmers address to the nation, and several Labour MPs mentioned it on the debate.
What simplistic solution?
The one we have been discussing perhaps? Again the proper solution would be understand why and counteracting the propaganda.
There is no silver bullet.
Well spotted. Anymore great insights?
Having health care staff vaccinated (and mandating that) is just one part of the response, and is already being implemented across Europe and North America.
In parts of Europe several countries have decided against that approach.
However you win. It clearly is protest politics as opposed to a rather complex issue without an easy answer.
So are the MPs voting based on their own personal views, or those of their constituents?
Do constituents expect their MPs to make the correct decision on their behalf, or expect their MPs to reflect their constituent's thoughts.
The poll above suggests the 100 MPs that voted against / abstained are not voting in their constituent's interests.
Another wonder of English politics.
So are the MPs voting based on their own personal views, or those of their constituents?
Its a representational democracy so the former. Although once you throw parties into the mix it becomes more confusing.
The poll above suggests the 100 MPs that voted against / abstained are not voting in their constituent’s interests.
No it shows they might not be voting the same way their constituents would. That doesnt necessarily mean it would be against their interests.
Another wonder of English politics.
Or more accurately pretty much any modern democratic political system. The only real alternative of direct democracy doesnt really scale well.
