[ quick reminder that I didn't vote for Labour under Blair, Brown or Miliband ]
Having one been once politically dead set against them, I've warmed to both Cooper and Balls in recent years, while they've been away from the front bench. I even had a dream the other night that they were job sharing the role of PM... which, in my dream, was working out really well for the UK... to the extent that the law was being changed so that we always had to have a male and a female joint PM, instead of having a deputy or stand in. In my happy simple unreal dream world, Balls was the heart and Cooper the brains of a government that was confining the Tories to seemingly endless opposition. You might have more exciting, or realistic, dreams, but mine was a warm lovely and stark contrast to UK political realities.
Quite a dream there Kelvin.
I can't stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair and probably more Tory than some Tories. She has no voter appeal imo, and no redeeming qualities.
"No redeeming qualities"
So her ability and competence on the select committee is not a quality suited to an MP?
You may not like her or want to vote for her but your last sentence seems a bit silly.
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-29-november-2021/
Redfield & Wilton Strategies’ latest voting intention poll in Great Britain finds the Conservative Party leading over the Labour Party by 2%, following the two parties’ tie in last week’s poll. Altogether, the full numbers (with the changes from last week in parentheses) are as follows:
Conservative 38% (+1)
Labour 36% (-1)
Liberal Democrat 10% (+1)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (-1)
I can’t stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair and probably more Tory than some Tories.
So probably slap bang in the middle of where much of the voting public are.
and no redeeming qualities.
When she came to a community-based cataract service that I set up in Wakefield, she made a pretty decent cup of tea, so there's that.
Redfield & Wilton Strategies’ latest voting intention poll
But, oddly...
Starmer on the rise... (no, I'm not sure why either)...
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1465382571626409991?s=20
And government reputation diving as regards "sleeze"... (no, I'm not sure what that covers either)...
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1465667076350267401?s=20
You may not like her or want to vote for her but your last sentence seems a bit silly.
You think it seems a bit silly because you don't agree with me.
I don't believe that any ability and competence that she might have chairing a select committee redeems her from the fact that she is a Blairite on the far right of the Labour Party.
The last thing Britian needs right now, in my opinion of course, is the Labour Party to shift further to the right and go back to the days of New Labour. Which is exactly what Cooper's return to the front benches signal.
Obviously you won't agree with me because you have a different point of view. It doesn't necessarily make my remark silly, just because you don't agree.
The last thing Britian needs right now, in my opinion of course, is the Labour Party to shift further to the right and go back to the days of New Labour. Which is exactly what Cooper’s return to the front benches signal.
The thing is, anything further 'left' of New Labour has been proven, repeatedly, sufficiently unpopular with the electorate. New Labour was the only Labour government of any form for a long, long, time. I appreciate that many in the Labour party would like a more 'traditional Labour' government, but unfortunately, generally, the electorate disagrees.
So, do you keep pushing for what you want but probably won't get, or something 'sub-optimal' but with a chance of success?
The bit I don't agree with you on is your comment of "No voter appeal or redeeming qualities"
Her redeeming qualities lie in her abilities as shown by her performance in the select committee.
Her voter appeal lies in her competence.
You personally think she is too right wing which is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Denying she has voter appeal or any redeeming features is silly.
If there were to be a General Election in the United Kingdom tomorrow, for which party would you vote?
That was the question that Redfield & Wilton Strategies asked. I was originally going to include in my post but decided not to bother.
And the reason I thought of including it was because I thought it was highly likely that someone would say "but wait.......blah blah".
I see that this time it fell to Kelvin to use the deflecting tactics.
The only question that matters is how would people vote if there was a general election tomorrow. What they think of so-and-so is completely irrelevant if in doesn't affect the way they will vote.
To find out whether it affects the way they will vote you ask "how would you vote of there was a general election tomorrow?"
I see that this time it fell to Kelvin to use the deflecting tactics.
No deflecting. Intention to vote Labour down 1 point, to vote Conservative up 1 point. Not disputing that. I find it interesting, and surprising, that Starmer as "best PM" is rising, in the same polling. Definitely worth a mention in this thread about Kier Starmer. The "sleaze" polling is less surprising... except that it's telling that the party of government still polls so well when more and more of the public are more cynical about them. Suggests that Labour aren't trusted, even when people have such a low opinion of the Conservatives in government when it comes to "sleaze".
I appreciate that many in the Labour party would like a more ‘traditional Labour’ government, but unfortunately, generally, the electorate disagrees.
Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband both lost general elections, and Starmer will lose the next one.
Ed Miliband not right-wing enough? Gordon Brown not New Labour enough?
What is Starmer's problem.....too left wing?
Her redeeming qualities lie in her abilities as shown by her performance in the select committee.
Her voter appeal lies in her competence.
Well of course she has abilities, the woman won a Kennedy scholarship to Harvard ffs. No reason I should think it is a redeeming quality though, plenty of Tory politicians have a great deal of ability.
And you really think that her alleged voter appeal lies in her competence? Is that what attracted voters to Boris Johnson...his competence?
Don’t forget that her husband was on Strictly
Big vote winner, that
The thing is, anything further ‘left’ of New Labour has been proven, repeatedly, sufficiently unpopular with the electorate.
New Labour was popular twenty years ago. It's about as relevant as Harold Wilson or Clement Atlee.
I can’t stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair
Why not be honest and just leave it there?
She's Labour centric, if you're Labour left then you will dislike her on a fundamental level, anything past that is bias confirming garnish. The Labour Party has been made up of Democratic Socialists and social-democrats for decades and has lost elections to in-fighting and bickering.
The Labour Party, and Labour voters need to make their mind up, Labour has been in opposition now for more than a decade, and if an election were to be called next year, they're far from guaranteed a victory. Do you want to spend another decade arguing over the small stuff, whilst the Tories gain another 5 years?
The Democratic Socialists have had 11 years and 3 general elections with the Leadership of the Labour party, and they lost, we can debate the hows and whys until the cows come home, but those are the facts.
Starmer is a a Labour Centrist, I know, to the Left he's right-wing, verging on a Blairite (only said whilst spitting on the floor) but it's only a matter of perspective and like it or not, he's going to build the shadow cabinet with MPs of the same persuasion, in the same way every successful Labour leader has done before.
If you want a Labour PM with a Labour Government, even if it's not the perfect shade of Red you'd like, then you have to get onboard with it.
Starmer is a a Labour Centrist, I know, to the Left he’s right-wing, verging on a Blairite (only said whilst spitting on the floor) but it’s only a matter of perspective and like it or not, he’s going to build the shadow cabinet with MPs of the same persuasion, in the same way every successful Labour leader has done before.
Funny, cos that's not what his leadership manifesto said...
And I think that's the problem many of us have with him - he's a liar.
Why not be honest and just leave it there?
Which bit do you think is dishonest? And the reason I didn't leave it there was that I was challenged, like you have just done, quite extensively.
Would it help the thread if I just changed my opinions to conform with the general consensus?
She’s Labour centric, if you’re Labour left then you will dislike her on a fundamental level, anything past that is bias confirming garnish.
Yes because its always the left wings fault isnt it?
If you want a Labour PM with a Labour Government, even if it’s not the perfect shade of Red you’d like, then you have to get onboard with it.
As arguments go that might have worked before the lunatics on the right of labour made it clear they would prefer a hard right government than anything left wing.
Given the evidence of how far the overton window shifted last wing why would anyone want to repeat the same mistake?
Well of course she has abilities, the woman won a Kennedy scholarship to Harvard ffs. No reason I should think it is a redeeming quality though, plenty of Tory politicians have a great deal of ability.
And you really think that her alleged voter appeal lies in her competence? Is that what attracted voters to Boris Johnson…his competence?
I said her competence is a redeeming quality, do you think she is competent?
Boris voter appeal was not his competence, his jack the lad spirit was his voter appeal. He did not appeal to me but to deny him of having voter appeal (to a certain demographic) would be silly.
Funny, cos that’s not what his leadership manifesto said…
Miliband played the same game in 2010. Beat his brother by positioning himself to the left of him… and never stuck to it as leader. One face for a leadership battle, a different one when facing the nation.
I can’t stand Yvette Cooper, more Blairite than Blair and probably more Tory than some Tories.
So probably slap bang in the middle of where much of the voting public are.
This!
In the bell curve of the UK electorate the mode is probably just left of 5 (if extreme left is 0 and extreme right is 10) and 80% of the electorate are probably between 4 and 6.
The self-selecting Labour membership is being pulled towards 3, where the ideological purity is better, but the number of voters is vanishingly small.
What's better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?
Beat his brother by positioning himself to the left of him…
It's hard to imagine an easier thing for him to do.
So how did it turn out for Ed Miliband? Since you appear to be claiming that Starmer is simply following Ed Miliband's tactics.
The self-selecting Labour membership is being pulled towards 3, where the ideological purity is better, but the number of voters is vanishingly small.
Quite. Labour should be slap bang in the middle, where they will hoover up all the Lib Dem votes.
What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?
Said with so much conviction. I guess the reason Labour are polling so badly is because Starmer hasn't moved the party to the right enough.
I'm sure that with a bit of effort he could shift the party to the right of the Tories......then they'll be romping home to victory next general election.
And that's what really matters, nothing else does.
So how did it turn out for Ed Miliband?
I can’t answer that. He might be happy that he got a shot. But for his party, and the country, not very well at all. He wasn’t ready to be leader.
I’d take him as PM *now* in a heartbeat though.
Since you appear to be claiming that Starmer is simply following Ed Miliband’s tactics.
I make no such claim. Only that how someone wins a leadership campaign, and how they go on to lead the party, has differed before, and will do again. Far from unusual, and not unexpected. And whether it’s cynically planned, tactics if you like, or responding to events and the reality of running a party, I don’t know.
What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?
Welsh independence.
What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?
The latter for me.
Only that how someone wins a leadership campaign, and how they go on to lead the party, has differed before, and will do again.
Almost a requirement of leadership when you stop to think about it. Possibly a little less so in the Tory party who find it easier to hold their noses and support anyone they think might win.
Cooper. Nose right in the trugh. Her and balls made themselves rich on housing expenses. I dont care if no law was broken. It stinks to high heaven https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5325590/Ed-Balls-and-Yvette-Cooper-flipped-homes-three-times-MPs-expenses.html
Employed their son on an obviously bogus basis
Takes 600000pa in donation from a private company
I do not want someone who behaves like that and thinks that acceptable in cabinet
Much of the wrongdooing is in Balls name as well. Ill look it up later
Doesn't Yvette Cooper have a tiny majority?
Is there any more party desperation than constant reshuffles?
Binnwrs i never said Burnham was racist. I said he played the race card and he did. At the time i gave you the quotes and you agreed it stank
I think this was the speech. Nothing overt but its clear his aims and he hits a lot of the buttons
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/andy-burnham-claimed-eu-immigration-071841121.html
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I feel disappointed and let down to learn that you have a subscription with the Daily Telegraph TJ !
And just as I was appreciating our shared dislike of Yvette Cooper 😟
What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government
Are you new here? Pass the placard comrade, and could you sign this petition the Canary just tweeted calling for equal rights for disabled transsexuals in the Gaza Strip…
Is there any more party desperation than constant reshuffles?
Constant? Yes.
How many has Starmer had?
What-s-name had to go from shadow home secretary though. Unpopular, I know, but I think Nandy would have been a good choice for that role, but the list of MPs that I think would have been more effective than what-s-name is pretty long, and does include Cooper.
Best promotion - Lammy.
Worst promotion - Streeting.
A mixed bag, but overall feels like a stronger front bench to me... more pushy, more challenging for ministers to deal with I hope... and I mean in the media more than in parliament (but there as well).
I dont have a sub Ernie. Wouldn't dream of it
The wonderful irony binners is that "careful now" and "down with this sort of thing" is exactly what you think the Labour Party campaigning sentiments should be ....... nothing too radical which might upset the Tory press.
You are happy to see the Labour Party take on the role of a middle-class protest group.
I dont have a sub Ernie. Wouldn’t dream of it
So you provided a link to an article you hadn't read?
Oh i read it. Aomething odd but it opened fine for me. If it didn't work for you then I am confused
Do you want a copy and paste or is the headline enough?
How many has Starmer had?
2 in 7 months I think.
3 in total?
James O'Brien was having kittens when Corbyn reshuffled.
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1465364967998332938?t=HaaRai8ks_IBeEao-JAJKQ&s=19
Let's see what happens after this.
What’s better, a hard left protest group or a centre-left government?
And today's award for a false dichotomy goes to...
Here's Labour's % of the vote at the last few general elections:
2010 - 29.0
2015 - 30.4
2017 - 40
2019 - 32.1
The lowest share was under one of the architects of New Labour, the highest under its most left wing leader. Immaterial as all of those elections were lost, but the idea that Starmer gets the keys to No.10 by moving to the right doesn't really stack up. It's interesting that Labour won in 2005 with just 35.2% of the vote - Blair was very fortunate that i) the Tories were a mess, ii) the Lib Dems split the vote and iii) FPTP distorted the result
If it didn’t work for you then I am confused
No it didn't work for me.... it's presumably worked out from my internet history that I'm too left-wing and won't let through the paywall. You obviously didn't have a problem 🧐
I have never managed to penetrate the Telegraph's paywall. I don't feel it's a huge loss though.
Immaterial as all of those elections were lost
The only part of that statement that actually matters
God knows how many times we have to repeat this…
It’s like a football match. Nobody gives a toss about which team had the most possession or the highest number of corners, all that counts is who got the three points
You lefties are the political equivalent of Jose Mourhino
Blair was very fortunate that i) the Tories were a mess, ii) the Lib Dems split the vote and iii) FPTP distorted the result
Also don't forget that the Tories had been in government for 18 years, eventually voters get fed up with the same governing party and simply yearn for change.
Which is one of the reasons why until his unexpected death John Smith was widely predicted to be certain to win the 1997 general election.
