Until I know the details around the “£15” fallout, I’m open to the idea that it’s a bullshit excuse for a move long planned. He’s still a politician.
Speaking of a bullshit excuse...
You believe him if you want to. Up to you. Looks pre-meditated to me, and the reason weak. Same old Labour eating itself.
Even if you believe he's been planning it for a while, and quit now because it's the conference purely to maximise a protest, it's still not even close to what happened with Corbyn, and I think that's pretty obvious.
and the reason weak
You think his leader telling him to argue against a desperately needed increase in the minimum wage after millions of low paid workers have held the country together during the pandemic is weak? Wow!
You believe him if you want to. Up to you. Looks pre-meditated to me, and the reason weak. Same old Labour eating itself.
If you wish, with zero evidence, to defend the indefensible, that's up to you.
Your claim to be left of centre is about as authentic as Starmer's.
Never mind all this shit!
Rachel Reeves just publicly said the ‘B’ word live on channel 4 news!!! 😳
You think his leader telling him to argue against a desperately needed increase in the minimum wage after millions of low paid workers have held the country together during the pandemic is weak?
It needs explaining. £15 when? Why wasn’t it in the paper he just worked on if it was key? Was he promised a policy announcement only to have it pulled this week? Have Labour dropped its commitment to raising the minimum wage?
it’s still not even close to what happened with Corbyn
It’s not nearly on the same scale, not even close, of course. But it’s the same tactics, resign with the aim of embarrassing the leader. Sadly the public then get that as the lead news item when Labour has one of its rare moments with the full attention of the media. The voters see the tactic at play and Labour again miss a chance to win them over.
Your claim to be left of centre is about as authentic as Starmer’s.
I’m to the left of where Corbyn moved Labour’s policies. Doesn’t mean that I can’t see a politician playing a game that damages his party and help the Conservatives cement their hold on England (and by extension the UK).
The idea of £15 and hour is laughable.it would sky rocket costs.
The idea of £15 and hour is laughable.it would sky rocket costs.
Would it? Why?
The idea of £15 and hour is laughable.it would sky rocket costs.
Depends when it is introduced, and what other changes happen as well. Next April the government is increasing employers NI contributions for the low paid, making it more expensive to employ those workers without the employees seeing any benefit of that. Just one example. You can increase the minimum wage together with other changes that reduce its impact on employers and the state. Reverse the tax cuts as regards inheritance, increase taxes on digital services provided off shore, use that to reduce taxes on small businesses so they can pay their staff a higher mandated wage. Another example.
it would sky rocket costs.
So you’re ok with child poverty, food banks and homelessness as long as you can get cheap goods? Besides you’re talking bollocks in any case. The profits of low pay flow into the pockets of the rich, not hard pressed consumers.
They said the same about the minimum wage when it was first introduced.
The idea of £15 and hour is laughable.it would sky rocket costs.
It would shift some of the burden of supporting the low paid away from the government and on to employers (many of whom pay directors ludicrous sums of money while paying starvation wages).
Also, costs seem to be skyrocketing anyway.
I thought Johnson said he wanted a high wage economy? £15 an hour seems to be headed the right way. I can't see why Starmer wouldn't support it.
Do you think making the minimum salary for a full time job a smidge under 30 grand a year might have any effect on inflation?
It all depends on what minimum wage brings, there are positive, there are negatives, but reality for me says this is probably the best time to try something, maybe not a huge jump like £15, but maybe a progressive rise in short timescales.
Positives are the simple stuff, but can you imagine the fight you'll have with big business on this one, the ripple effect would also be a bit of a nightmare, as at £15 an hour you're effectively capturing the entire retail sector, logistics supply, care and so on, would be nice to see, but it would be nice to see what type of effect it would have via some model/simulation that isn't rigged.
So you’re ok with child poverty, food banks and homelessness as long as you can get cheap goods?
Raising the non wage to 15 isn’t going to solve that as cost of living will go up significantly. I earn £9.50 an hour in Sainsburys. Do you really think Sainsburys are not going to put costs up if they have to increase the basic wage of colleges by 50%? What is going to happen to other wages - people will what that increased. Why am I going to be a teacher for 20 an hour when I can do an easier job with a lot less stress for just a little bit less.
Do you think making the minimum salary for a full time job a smidge under 30 grand a year might have any effect on inflation?
Do you think the government should have to subsidise the wages of people who work for very large very profitable companies?
No.
Can you explain why you seem to be opposed to the £15 an hour then? I won't hold my breath.
I doubt they are intending to do it instantly.
As mentioned I remember all these exact arguments when the minimum wage was brought in...
Can you explain why you seem to be opposed to the £15 an hour then?
Can you point out where I said I’m opposed?
I asked a perfectly reasonable question:
What effect do you think that would have on inflation?
Any thoughts?
In answer to your question, I think it’s absolutely insane that the taxpayer is effectively subsidising profitable companies who won’t pay their employees enough to live on
Even if the £15 an hour is credible, how do you suppose Labour sell it as fiscally responsible given the right wing press will obliterate it. Brexit shows people will happily vote against their interests.
But it’s the same tactics, resign with the aim of embarrassing the leader. Sadly the public then get that as the lead news item when Labour has one of its rare moments with the full attention of the media. The voters see the tactic at play and Labour again miss a chance to win them over.
I'm not even sure it will register with most people, if it did a corbyn loyalist that no one has heard of quitting, isnt a necessaryily a bad thing for Starmers election chances..
Internally it maybe trouble for Labour and that won't help when they need canvasses etc
Squabbling over internal party matters whilst the goal lays wide open and untended about six yards away.
No. One. Gives. A. Shit.
All Labour have to do is look halfway sensible and united right now.
Even if the £15 an hour is credible, how do you suppose Labour sell it as fiscally responsible given the right wing press will obliterate it.
This is labours problem
They are seen as fiscally useless even tho the Tories have racked up waaay more debt and austerity was a woeful disaster
Labour don't have the confidence to trumpet what they achieved in power.
Personally I'd love to see £15 an hour min wage, but really would want to see some numbers on what it would do to businesses & inflation
This is more dissapointinh tbh
Unions scuppering PR even tho members backed it
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1442545944835264512?s=19
I’m not even sure it will register with most people, if it did a corbyn loyalist that no one has heard of quitting, isnt a necessaryily a bad thing for Starmers election chances..
Len McClusky (FFS - are you still here?) was on channel 4 news being all Len McClusky about it
I’m not sure a visibly indignant Len McClusky is a bad look for Starmer at all, electorally
Gah PR! FFS this is a must for Labour.
It’s absolutely insane! Surely everyone other than the Tories, who are busy gerrymandering electoral boundaries, should be in favour of PR?
It’s a no-brainer!
I despair
Majority of the labour-affiliated unions are now headed by right-wingers - just saying...
Which unions is that then grum? Not that many allow their leader a free rein on these votes anyway. The truth is PR would, in the long term, weaken the Labour Party as a block by increasing real choice at the ballot box. Members want it because it should lead to better representation, not only in parliament, and at local government, but also in the party.
GMB and Unison I believe.
Starmer's response to Andy Mcdonald's resignation might sum up his leadership more perfectly than anything else.
"Labour's comprehensive New Deal for Working People shows the scale of our ambition"
Frinstance, the ambition of a £10 minimum wage. The minimum wage today being £8.91, and the average increase being 34p a year, by the next election we're on track for that to have risen to £9.93. The sheer SCALE OF THAT 7P AMBITION. Bask in it.
poah
Free MemberThe idea of £15 and hour is laughable.it would sky rocket costs.
Said literally every critic of every minimum wage ever, just replace the amount with whatever's been proposed. It's exactly what Philip Hammond said in 99. It's exactly what they say in every US state that only has the federal minimum wage, even though there are US state minimum wages that are over twice as much.
GMB and Unison I believe.
GMB is led by yet another in a long line of dinosaurs, which is what the members seem to want. Labour is constantly driving with the handbrake on while they have a strong voice. Unison is led by an ex-communist, not sure if she counts as “the right”, she’s arguably pretty central in terms of the Labour Party now, but she doesn’t dictate policy anyway.
The unions getting a block vote needs to end. Give all opted in union members their own direct vote. That would probably mean the end to at conference voting by delegates, but that is looking less and less democratic as the decades move forward and the party does not.
Unison is led by an ex-communist, not sure if she counts as “the right”
There are several ex communists working for the Tory party now. Not sure it's really that relevant.
GMB is led by yet another in a long line of dinosaurs, which is what the members seem to want.
Nobody has a clue in a union about the leadership, turnout for leadership ballots is very low. Members who attend a branch meeting even lower. It's a broken kleptocracy at the top.
My statement was nothing to do with Starmer. As Grum kindly shows Corbyn lost 2 elections in a row.
No it doesn't, not without further context that isn't present.
It’s funny how people see what they want to isn’t it. It also shows that he did considerably better in 2017 than a lot of ‘centrists’ ever did.
Does it? Look at it again. He did better than Miliband and that's it. Don't let the fact he gained seats cloud your judgement.
I'll explain my working:
Those stats start with a high of 418/659 seats following the 1997 general election.
2001 that fell to 412/659
2005 that fell to 355/646
2010 that fell to 258/650
2015 that fell to 232/650
2017 that rose to 262/650
2019 that fell to 202/650
All these stats show is that regardless of leader, overall labour has been losing voters over 22 years. 2017 was a blip that still fell well short of the required majority of 326.
It’s a broken kleptocracy at the top.
Sounds ideal, then. Make a few casual racist/sexist remarks and stick a Union Jack on it. Should be in government by half twelve.
Is this Labour party conference really happening? They have the widest open goal since John Major was in power and they seem to have decided it's more fun to kick the ball in the opposite direction.
I fantasize that it's some strategy of neutralising the 'right wing press' by atrophying their journalists brains through lack use but can only conclude they just like arguing and don't want to change anything.
I've hated the way Diane Abbot has been treated in the past but her interview on R4 this morning showed she is away with the fairies. I hadn't realised that fantasy revisionism was back in fashion
I'd love everyone to get at least the basic living wage for London but no one seems to understand that the basic living wage in London is pretty good living in other parts of the country (I'm not speaking from an ivory tower worrying how I am going to pay the cleaner). Around here the existing minimum wage seems to be pretty widely circumvented using apprenticeships & training schemes (you wouldn't believe some of the jobs claiming to need to give two years training that mysteriously disappear at the end of the scheme only to be replaced with a new trainee 'yard broom technician').
All these stats show is that regardless of leader, overall labour has been losing voters over 22 years.
Well ok but then it also shows that making out Corbyn and his wacky left wing ideas are pretty much the only reason for all of Labour's problems (which is something we hear a lot) is a load of nonsense.
no one seems to understand that the basic living wage in London is pretty good living in other parts of the country
Is it? I was earning £12 an hour about 10 years ago working full time and I don't remember being especially well-off.
Do you think making the minimum salary for a full time job a smidge under 30 grand a year might have any effect on inflation?
No.
The idea is to both limit what someone can earn at the top end through taxation and redistribute the money at the lower end through higher wages.
I repeat once again inflation is generally a product of supply side shocks.
We've been locked in low inflation for years. Don't confuse the smash and grab issues of the pandemic / Brexit with a general trend in inflation.
Inflation can be controlled with taxation.
This is labours problem
They are seen as fiscally useless even tho the Tories have racked up waaay more debt and austerity was a woeful disaster
It's not debt. It's the net accumulation of money spent into the economy.
Besides the government did more or less the same in Q/E during the pandemic. Meaning no 'debt' - as the bonds were purchased back.
It's farcical.
Hmmmm.
The elephant in the room being automation. If you make some jobs 'too expensive' then companies will be spurred to automate them out of existence. Or just take their bat and ball and play somewhere else. Or just play with them in their back garden.
Unison is led by an ex-communist, not sure if she counts as “the right”,
She was the continuity candidate and is likely to continue the conservative approach of her predecessor.
I asked a perfectly reasonable question:
What effect do you think that would have on inflation?
Any thoughts?
Inflation can be controlled through taxation.
General long-term trend is downwards.
You tell me what the outcome is that can't be controlled?
Also transitory inflation like we have now is not likely to follow long-term trends.
The only people getting excited about inflation are the excited right-wing news sources as it erodes the value of their friends' assets.
Providing the country can keep up with demand of goods and services inflation isn't the problem it's made out to be.
(At the moment that is an issue.)
