Not defending anyone. I am interested in who the people who can no longer vote Labour because they are not left enough (which includes me by the way) are voting for. The only obvious choice is Green (which is who I vote for) but I don't see their vote/poll numbers going anywhere unfortunately.
Voting anything other than labour is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot as all it does is make a tory government more likely
I always vote Labour but understand that pay rises etc come from organised labour and protests not from overpaid, cosseted windbags on short working weeks. Starmer's 'fair day's work for a fair day's pay' means nothing (ask the nurses), he lines up with the bankers and the landlords and 'hard-working families' is a straight steal from Barack Obama. He's a tricky part of the establishment much like the Guardian.
johnx2 – nothing – its fine sentiment and I basically agree. Its just that like the labour right wing thats all it is. No actual policies, no political philosophy.
Okay, you agree with where I'm coming from. "Fairness": I'd abolish public schools, tax wealthy individuals and companies, assets not just income, reduce rents, make it possible for the generation down from me to have secure affordable homes etc etc. Again, how long have you got? And again, I'd be surprised if you found anything much to disagree with. I still don't get the need to take a disparaging tone.
Voting anything other than labour is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot as all it does is make a tory government more likely
Apart from if you live where I do (very safe 60%+ tory seat with same MP for 25 years). Labour are down in the 10% so for me voting Green makes sense as it gets their overall vote number up which I hope makes some sort of positive.
I’d abolish public schools, tax wealthy individuals and companies, assets not just income, reduce rents, make it possible for the generation down from me to have secure affordable homes etc etc.
And you think Starmer is going to do any of that? This is all stuff that if it came from any of us in the STW lefty cabal Binners would be on here in a second with his citizen smith picture. Welcome to the club though, a membership pack is on its way 😀
Fairness:
is a meaningless concept as to the left it means highly progressive income tax, to the right the opposite ie flat rate tax
Policy would be something like is 60% tax on over £100 000 pa
Philosophy is "tax the rich to reduce inequality" or similar
Not meant to be personally disparaging just that your post was a classic example of what I dislike - rhetoric that when looked at carefully means nothing and can be interpreted by anyone to mean anything
TJ, you’re right about fairness meaning different things to different people, but that’s sadly how you need to campaign to gain a broad enough base of voters. You and I might want a call for “redistribution of wealth”, but that scares the bejesus out of your average English voter, even if they would be a beneficiary of shifting the tax burden onto the wealthy and off the lower income asset poor households. So you start with talking about a “fair” taxation system, and then you flesh that out with simplistic explanations of what would actually be quite complicated changes to taxation to make them more progressive. Then repeat the “fair” part again, and again. Most people won’t get past the idea of “fair” and into the policy detail.
Are you all voting Green
I have voted Green but round here I'll be voting Lib Dem, as already mentioned.
So now all anyone in the media wants to talk about is infighting because of Starmer's attempt to change the rules without consulting anyone - not the fact that Labour have finally started mentioning some actual policy ideas.
Can someone explain how this is the left's fault please? I'm sure it must be because everything is, but I'm not quite seeing how yet.
That one is entirely on Starmer and his team. Wrong timing, and too easily painted as a step backwards rather than forwards. This could be his only conference as leader (thanks to the pandemic and Johnson having full control of the election timing) and Labour needed full focus on the next general election, not the next leadership selection. Labour do need to change how they chose their leader, but just proposing a return to block votes, at a time when Labour needs to look focused on becoming the next government, not on internal procedures, was, well… a dumb arsed move.
It's a strange old world politics. It seems to be considered normal practice that a party's so called diehard support are more bothered about retaining control of that party than winning elections.
something's gone a bit skew-whiff....
Danny you have this completely the wrong way round. It’s the rightwingers who are fighting factional battles to control the party. The left just want to get on with fighting the tories.
Danny you have this completely the wrong way round. It’s the rightwingers who are fighting factional battles to control the party. The left just want to get on with fighting the tories.
And Starmer is in the middle trying to make sense of it all
Who sabotaged Corbyn - the left or the right?
At a risk of being a bit of a bore… “both” sides are too busy fighting internal battles in the eyes of the public. It is not just “the left”, or the “the right”, or those trying and failing to pull them together (which I still think includes a dull but dedicated Starmer). There is no one bogey man group pulling the party apart. This is not the sound of one hand clapping. It’s also not new, or entirely down to those currently fighting the battles, but only those currently fighting their good fights can chose to focus their ire outwards and towards the government, rather than in internal battles.
You are right in one way daz, the centrists were complacent in thinking that racism and xenophobia had been largely eradicated in this country. 23rd June 2016 came as quite a shock on that front, I must admit.
🤷♂️
The Tories have internal battles & win elections.
Yes the centrists were complacent or frankly complicit with the anti immigration sentiment thathadbeen building in the UK.
Tories (even Tory centrists) fought every election on getting immigration 'down to the 10s of thousands' Labour centrists (scared of the electorate) made noises in favour of this. Corbyn when he came to power spoke positively of immigration.
Tory centrists gave us austerity, Labour centrists went along with it. Lefty Corbyn came to power and stood against austerity. Remember the vote just as he came to power?
something’s gone a bit skew-whiff….
It certainly has. Perhaps not what you're thinking though.
There is no one bogey man group pulling the party apart.
There's mainly one group pulling the party apart. Let's not have this nonsense again.
And you think Starmer is going to do any of that? This is all stuff that if it came from any of us in the STW lefty cabal Binners would be on here in a second with his citizen smith picture. Welcome to the club though, a membership pack is on its way 😀
Fairness:
is a meaningless concept as to the left it means highly progressive income tax, to the right the opposite ie flat rate tax
Policy would be something like is 60% tax on over £100 000 pa
Philosophy is “tax the rich to reduce inequality” or similar
Not meant to be personally disparaging just that your post was a classic example of what I dislike – rhetoric that when looked at carefully means nothing and can be interpreted by anyone to mean anything
...and I'd agree with all that too - some effective policies to tax the rich - capital and not just income, and make multinational tech pay it's fair share, absolutely. That's what I, a supposed centrist, would like to see happen.
My eventual point: I doubt I'd disagree with philosophy or principles or whatever in terms of the sort of world we'd want to get to. I'm sure we can have a discussion of what policies are most effective to bring that about (e.g. there seem to be a lot of economic experts, or folks who've read a couple of books anyway which is more than me, on here who know economic orthodoxy to be wrong. They're probably right too, but as I've not read the books I'll let that one go.)
This isn't motherbood and apple pie: rightwingers would regard the ability to pass on all your wealth to advantage your kids or to buy them a better education so they can get ahead of the pack, etc etc, to be fundamental freedoms and think anyone who says this simply perpetuates unfairness is just jealous. Not everyone does share these views, but a lot of what you're calling centrists and right wingers in labour terms do.
Where we disagree is on tactics to bring this about. The "what" you want do do is easy, it's the "how" which is hard.
Just when Johnson's bullshit is being exposed for what it is and the sensible majority in the country are looking around for a sensible alternative, Labour are at the seaside squabbling about intra-party protocol.
👏
That is just early conference nonsense though, wait until Starmer pulls out his big policies.
the sensible majority in the country
Is this the same sensible majority as the thick racists who voted for Brexit?
Anyone who leaves children hungry during a pandemic and can give billions of pounds to their mates on WhatsApp, I think that was pretty scummy.
Now that is a phrase, and let me contextualise it, it’s a phrase that you would hear very often in northern working-class towns. We’d even say it jovially to other people. And that to me is my street language …
I’m not saying that anyone who voted for Conservatives are racist, scummy and homophobic …
I’m saying the prime minister has said those things and has acted in that way …
If the prime minister wants to apologise, and remove himself from those comments that he’s made that are homophobic that racist, that are misogynistic, then I will apologise for calling him scummy.
This I like. Finally someone showing some backbone.
Pledge number 5 down the drain.
"I don't see nationalisation up there."
Fraud.
The exact opposite of what we need right now.
Other news: the snowflaky cancel-culture constantly offended righty press getting excited about Angela Rayner's "scum" comment.
We need more of this... She's going up in my estimation.
I'm sure all the free speech warriors on Twitter will be along to defend Rayner any minute. They must be all having a lie-in.
Other news: the snowflaky cancel-culture constantly offended righty press getting excited about Angela Rayner’s “scum” comment.
Starmer's undermined her already so he's done their job for them. That was after he undermined Ed Miliband on renationalisation.
What a guy.
I’m sure all the free speech warriors on Twitter will be along to defend Rayner any minute. They must be all having a lie-in.
Yeah, where's Julia H-B ? She's normally first in the queue.
Daz Grimes. You can count on him.
https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1442045702104887299?s=19
On cue.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1442106636068220928?s=19
I like how the shit storm is about calling them scum rather than the 'scum' smashing the country to pieces.
Go away you dozy neolib proxy.
You think sneaky austerity is the answer to anything the Tories have dropped on us?
https://twitter.com/RachelReevesMP/status/1442007944632045574?s=19
The more I see of Angela Rayner, the more I like her.
Surely in just being honest about the present government, she’s merely vocalising what a lot of people think anyway?
I’m sure it’s just the professionally offended who will be offended, as they are by pretty much everything, but I suspect she’s just gone up in a lot of people’s estimation
In stark contrast, that Rachel Reeves tweet is just depressing when the Tories are throwing money around (mainly to their mates) like a pissed sailor on shore leave
Yep the RW press making a meal out of it is not harming her in anyway.
As long as she doesn't apologise &any time she is asked just say what she said the first time.
It doesn’t look like she’s in any mood for apologising
Bet she doesn't dare mention the b-word, though.
Surely in just being honest about the present government, she’s merely vocalising what a lot of people think anyway?
Unfortunately, the story will be that her boss failed to back her.
Unfortunately, the story will be that her boss failed to back her.
And that neither of them mentioned the b-word.
🤭
binners
Full MemberThe more I see of Angela Rayner, the more I like her.
Surely in just being honest about the present government, she’s merely vocalising what a lot of people think anyway?
I’m sure it’s just the professionally offended who will be offended, as they are by pretty much everything, but I suspect she’s just gone up in a lot of people’s estimation
In stark contrast, that Rachel Reeves tweet is just depressing when the Tories are throwing money around (mainly to their mates) like a pissed sailor on shore leave
Have to be honest, can’t really stand her, if labours only ability to reach out to the electorate and start name calling it’s not going to go well at the next election.
What is needed is a credible opposition with a credible manifesto and a simple way of selling that, renationalising is an easy thing to state, but what is the cost, what is the timeline, etc, etc.
Argee, did you miss the last election? Labour detailed costs, plans and timelines for all their policies, and lost to a party that just waved their hands in the air and told us to leave the details to them… that they had plans, but would reveal them later… honest guv.
Not sure i read the actual numbers in their manifesto, just the plan, with quotes about prices, think it was £200 to £250 billion being added to public debt in funding that plan, same with the rest, it was a lot of cost without how the effects were to be managed.
I just want Labour to be credible again, we haven't seen that in a generation, yes 'new' labour worked in terms of winning, but it was more a case of being more tory than the tories in many instances, especially the way they went after the trade unions and some of the privatisation deals they set up!
binners
Full Member
The more I see of Angela Rayner, the more I like her.Surely in just being honest about the present government, she’s merely vocalising what a lot of people think anyway?
I’m sure it’s just the professionally offended who will be offended, as they are by pretty much everything, but I suspect she’s just gone up in a lot of people’s estimation
In stark contrast, that Rachel Reeves tweet is just depressing when the Tories are throwing money around (mainly to their mates) like a pissed sailor on shore leave.
Very much this.
You'd think the Tories would love a hardworking girl made good, dragged herself up by her bootstraps etc, but no.
Have a look on Pistonheads - apparantly she's fick, Norvern and the subject of some very childish fantasies.
I think she's excellent.
Have a look on Pistonheads
LOL as they tug their forelock to the lazy eton idiot
So he won the vote
Now let's get them winning the next election
Now let’s get them winning the next election
As if stitching up a vote on rule changes is going to be the end of it. This makes it less likely they’ll win an election because all the people they need to do the campaigning grunt work are going to be pretty pissed off.
all the people they need to do the campaigning grunt work are going to be pretty pissed off
They can always **** off and do that work for the Tories if they want.
They'll live.
As if stitching up a vote on rule changes is going to be the end of it. This makes it less likely they’ll win an election because all the people they need to do the campaigning grunt work are going to be pretty pissed off.
53% of them voted for it-that's even more winfull than brexit! so, no, not all the people
stitching up a vote
My my.
At a unanimous 53% surely it was just a cry for help by salt of the earth folk who felt they had to vote for change, any change, because they had been ignored for so long? No?
Monbiot was right, wasn't he....
