But now you are old and wise eh?
No. I just have my opinion of the political options in the UK changed by events. They idea that "they're all the same", just because "they" are all to the right of my ideal position no longer holds up, in my mind anyway.
an illegal war killing hundreds of thousands and traumatising millions of others
Ah, yes, because I don't want a Conservative government I supported the war in Iraq. Of course.
Amusing how nothing gets the Old Labour diehards going like a few suggestions about how to be elected - ones that could actually do that rather than fantasies about a revolution.
Priti Patel sending vulnerable immigrants back across the Channel in breach of international law - barely a mention.
Suggest that Labour could become (oh my god) a bit more centrist - fire up the personal messages, get on the thread, one of the centrist is being sensible again.
When you talk about a ‘serious political party’, all you mean is a party which only cares about the cosseted remainer middle classes like yourself.
If Labour alienate 'us' with banner politics and renditions of The Red Flag, then they might as well disband.
The Red Wall Racists are gone. They drank Farage's Kool Aid and they ain't coming back. If the Tories let them down they'll go for something further to the right. Once you've indulged your inner 'nasty' in the polling booth (twice) and felt a momentary surge of satisfaction you ain't going back.
It’s because the british public are all racist thickos obviously.
Nope. But if Labour refuses to engage with those who aren't then they might as well pack up and piss off.
I mean, even me, who would take pretty much anything other than the Tories or whatever Farage's current plaything is, voted Labour last time (but I had to think twice about it). I tried to convince colleagues of the time to do the same, but they were repelled by Corbyn and his haplessness.
As I've said before, it isn't me you've got to convince.
🤷♂️
Ah, yes, because I don’t want a Conservative government I supported the war in Iraq. Of course.
But you just said you'd be happy with a'soft tory' government? You do know that 'tory' is shorthand for Conservative, don't you? So you would be happy with a conservative government?
No... "soft tory" was some other tool's description of the only Labour government I can remember, I jokingly suggested "soft labour" as an alternative description of a Labour government to the right of what I'd ideally want. I'd rather have a Labour government to the right of my ideals than let the Conservatives continue to govern for the rest of my life, which is looking like a strong possibility right now. The 2017 Labour manifesto wasn't as left wing as the 2019, but would I have rather had Corbyn as PM than May? Hell yes. There is plenty of room for the party to be (or at least appeal to those voters who are) less left wing than the 2019 offering, without going anywhere near where the Conservative party are now.
They idea that “they’re all the same”, just because “they” are all to the right of my ideal position no longer holds up, in my mind anyway.
I think you are overly simplifying the arguments there.
The "all the same" seems to be mostly used by those who werent overly politically engaged and is a real problem. Its what helped lead to brexit when people voted for a change, any change since they had tried labour and didnt see sufficient.
It is one thing the tories are good at mind, pretending they have changed and so ticking the not the same box.
Amusing how nothing gets the Old Labour diehards going like a few suggestions about how to be elected – ones that could actually do that rather than fantasies about a revolution.
Assuming you're going to achieve this without all the 'Lefties', please; do explain how?
No.
Crafty edit... 😉
I take it a ‘nutter’ is someone with whom you disagree aka trot, sixth former, tin foil helmet, Citizen Smith. Deary me.
Well, spending all your time professing your idealism then refusing to countenance any compromise that might allow you to actually implement that idealism....
Seems a bit absurd to me. But then my party number isn't <100, so I guess I'm not wanted.
Oh well, Lib Dem or Greens it is then.... 🤷♂️
The “all the same” seems to be mostly used by those who werent overly politically engaged and is a real problem.
It's used a lot by people who claim to be very politically engaged as well. Read recent pages of this thread.
It is one thing the tories are good at mind, pretending they have changed and so ticking the not the same box.
Very true. Which is why pointing out the failures of this government isn't enough... they will simply stand on a platform of fixing the things things that they broke themselves, and the public will lap it up.
they will simply stand on a platform of fixing the things things that they broke themselves, and the public will lap it up
That's dangerously close to calling the public stupid. Careful or Daz will have you in a show trial before your feet hit the floor. 🤭
It’s used a lot by people who claim to be very politically engaged as well
I used it in two specific scenarios.
It is a problem though when you have the parties triangulating to try and claim the swing voters and does lead to large portions of the population feeling left out. Incidently not just something which effects the left if you look on conservative home and other sites you will see people complaining about the tories abandoning them to go left (which admittedly raises questions about what coloured glasses the people are wearing but the perception is still there).
Once again, right-wingers ascribing mental illness to those with whom they disagree. And doing it again, and again, and again, and again. Because it’s classy, to use the notion of mental illness to abuse someone…
The ironing....
As classy as
"Gutless"
"Bedwetters"
Etc?
Incidently not just something which effects the left if you look on conservative home and other sites you will see people complaining about the tories abandoning them to go left
Indeed. The Tory's lost the last by-election in a traditionally safe Chesham and Amersham seat to the Lib Dems because of it. They've now effectively scrapped all the proposed changes to planning laws because the rich, tory-voting, NIMBY boomers of the South East let it be known they'd vote for somebody else instead if they didn't.
I’ve heard Tory MPs ascribing the “levelling up” agenda to now mean focussing on the needs of their Southern stockbroker belt seats instead of the North. That’s the beauty of campaigning with slogans that can mean whatever the listener wants it to mean. I don’t think Labour can get away with the same though, as it requires media repetition of the slogans. It also requires someone who can imbue the slogans with emotion. Make them resonate while avoiding any real explanation of what they mean. Starmer can not do that.
Danny, you might benefit from understanding the difference between idealism and materialism. I profess the latter.
You just need to get 40% of the population to want the same... and here's the trick... make sure they're distributed appropriately across the UK to get 50% of the seats. Good luck...
If Keir Starmer was popular and winning, a lot of this discussion about centrism/war on the left/lack of vision etc would just fade away.
But he's not, and there's no one impressive/charismatic waiting in the wings. Labour are screwed.
A fair summary.
As classy as
“Gutless”
“Bedwetters”
Etc?
Bless... 😀
Well, spending all your time professing your idealism then refusing to countenance any compromise that might allow you to actually implement that idealism….
Tories don't compromise on their rotten destructive path and they manage to get elected.
We can only overturn years of damage by moving away from the current system of market-led economics.
*Also* the centrism way is not gaining popular traction so why so convinced that this special form of compromise is doing any good in terms electability?
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1441374055379050502?s=19
I'm not interested any more. I'm going to spunk my vote on the Libdems. As will millions of other centrists. Then Johnson will get another term.
As you were, folks.
Libdems love their Tory pacts so what's the difference?
Nothing short of revolution, apparently
Libdems love their Tory pacts so what’s the difference?
You tell me, it is clearly what you want.
🤷♂️
I’ve heard Tory MPs ascribing the “levelling up” agenda to now mean focussing on the needs of their Southern stockbroker belt seats instead of the North
They are going to have difficulty balancing the different groups against each other. Its something which Labour should be attacking.
It also requires someone who can imbue the slogans with emotion. Make them resonate while avoiding any real explanation of what they mean.
To a degree. It also requires the media to show someone spewing the slogans without stopping and asking them to explain what it means.
*Also* the centrism way is not gaining popular traction so why so convinced that this special form of compromise is doing any good in terms electability?
Any of you centrists care to actually answer this? Without just saying 'well it's obvious' or talking about Tony Blair.
What are the polices of the labour right wing? - and please stop calling them centrists.
So much going for him and yet we are where we are.
Any of you centrists care to actually answer this?
Because centrists (moderates) don't go out of their way to reply to opinion polls, phone in to media shows, and generally shove their oar in whenever possible*. They are more likely to be quietly living their lives, doing the best they can and waiting for the next opportunity to actually have a say that matters - and getting increasingly exasperated by this current shambles of a government.
It's OK, though, you've made it abundantly clear that centrist swing voters aren't welcome in Labour, so you don't have to worry about the dilution of your ideological purity.
👍
*Apart from ranting on the odd forum and even then, most of us don't do that.
...
Ego unbound Danny. ROFL
Can anyone tell me the policies and philosophy of the labour right wing please?
In other words Danny
I don't give a shit who is in charge unless I'm materially affected.
& I'm not going to vote Labour to spite some people on a MTB forum.
😂
Because centrists (moderates) don’t go out of their way to reply to opinion polls
You have gone in for full blown silent majority here. So are you saying the polls consistently underestimate the centrists? I am not sure the last few elections bear that out with, if anything, them being overrepresented in the polls. Hence several upsets.
It’s OK, though, you’ve made it abundantly clear that centrist swing voters aren’t welcome in Labour
Really? People have just been asking you to explain your position and been pointing out that what seems to be your desire, namely that the swing voters are prioritised over all else, is a trick which only really works once.
For someone ranting on about ideological purity you really do display the symptoms.
In other words Danny
I don’t give a shit who is in charge unless I’m materially affected.
I voted Labour in the last GE because I am fundamentally opposed to the kind of petty nativism and nationalism that is currently running this country. I have not been materially affected by anything that has gone on in the last 5 years - at least not enough to be massively bothered by it.
As I keep saying, though, it isn't me you need to convince. I would have taken Corbyn ahead of Johnson, but as Corbyn is also a brexiteer, it didn't feel a great choice. But I would have preferred it. I lost count of people who said to me (when I tried to convince them to vote Labour) that "I can't vote for that terrorist sympathising relic" or similar. Not my words.
Amusingly, the diehards still insist that this current 'government' is 'Conservative'. It isn't, it is a cash-spunking kleptocracy with a nationalist-populist edge for the morons. Starmer can't out-bullshit Johnson to win back the Red Wall (they're gone), so he needs to appeal to people who actually see what is going on.
Ego unbound Danny. ROFL
Laugh away. It won't be funny when Johnson gets another term and maybe loses a seat or two to the Libdems. Johnson and his mob of braying twerps will be rolling in the aisles, though. And it'll be you they're laughing at. Again.
👏
trick which only really works once
Are you on the verge of suggesting that Labour shouldn't try to win once because that might compromise their ability to win twice?
🤭
Are you on the verge of suggesting that Labour shouldn’t try to win once because that might compromise their ability to win twice?
No but it is fascinating that is the path your ideological beliefs drive you down.
Can anyone tell me the policies and philosophy of the labour right wing please?
And it’ll be you they’re laughing at. Again.
👏
Laughing at me but not you? How so?
I voted Labour in the last GE because I am fundamentally opposed to the kind of petty nativism and nationalism that is currently running this country. I have not been materially affected by anything that has gone on in the last 5 years – at least not enough to be massively bothered by it.
Same goes for me. If I have been materially affected by a Tory government it is probably in a positive way. But as I am not a selfish greedy tory ****er I vote Green (although did vote Corbyn on his first attempt) as I am more interested in a fairer society than what is good for me in my privileged position.
The question is who are the voters that Labour can appeal to and what are they voting now. I work and live amongst a lot of Tories and they will simply never vote Labour, ever. They all vote tory despite have two of the worst tory MPs (Chope, Swayne) as they don't care as long as they have a party that will ensure they are better off.
Laughing at me but not you? How so?
Because it'll be unwitting sleeper agents like yourself that steer Labour away from widespread popularity.
You carry on, though.
They are more likely to be quietly living their lives, doing the best they can
:swoon:
Because it’ll be unwitting sleeper agents like yourself that steer Labour away from widespread popularity.
I thought us lefties were irrelevant and it's the centrists that are the important ones for getting elected - make your mind up.
The labour right successfully sabotaged corbyn. Thats where the issues started. the labour right would rather be in opposition than a leftish government
Now can anyone actually tell me what the labour right stand for? Policies and philosophy?
I thought us lefties were irrelevant and it’s the centrists that are the important ones for getting elected – make your mind up.
The dinosaur lefties are irrelevant as part of the electorate, but potentially lethal to Labour if they hijack them with their nonsense. Again.
The centrists are the opposite.
:swoon:
Swoon away. I'm losing count of the number of my fellow normal people who are saying that they don't want to be governed by a clown like Johnson, but Starmer is too hamstrung by the dinosaurs to form a credible alternative.
At this rate the Libdems could easily double their vote, and Johnson would barely notice - because he doesn't have to.
Starmer is too hamstrung by the dinosaurs to form a credible alternative.
The crap people invent to justify Starmer's uselessness...
