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That will not be happening at the next election… voters do not share your enthusiasm for declarations of just spending money and worrying about it later (even though that’s exactly what every government does).
Nonsense. For a start unemployment is reflection of government spending. We are probably closer to 7-8% unemployment. That in pure accounting terms means they haven't spent enough.
So voters prefer higher bills then and a terrible NHS because of a balance sheet?
There's is no worrying about spending money later. You make the decision before and it's enacted legally through parliament.
Your argument has totally collapsed unless your position is to accept the things will happily deteriorate from here on in.
Do you intend to keep misrepresenting what is good for society by way of supporting Starmer for his every regressive move?
but then how would that work in Westminster, those Scottish Labor MP’s couldn’t vote through a Kings Speech based on the manifesto their English, Welsh and Irish counterparts were elected on.
Why not? You don't need to be in the same party to vote for a kings speech. The alternative is to do as labour have done and completely turn their backs on Scotland giving the SNP a free run.
Even without the divorce from Westminster Scottish labour could do so much better by stopping being wreckers and being positive not negative. As for the alliance with the tories - thats just a pure gift to the SNP. I cannot fthom how anyone left leaning could go in to coalition with the tories. Indeed on Edinburgh council two labour councillors refused to vote for the tory / lavbour coalition and where kicked out of the party for refusing to do a deal with the tories
Where is a single positive policy from labour that works for Scotland?
But the answer to 12 years of crippling austerity is not more austerity.
Depends on who is asking the question and what they want in return.
Lets see if his new way of governing will actually involve anything useful.
But the answer to 12 years of crippling austerity is not more austerity.
It is for centrists because they keep banging their head against a wall over tax and spend.
They some how magically believe that reducing the *debt* there is more money to spend. They have no answer for funding things because it simply doesn't exist in their world hence Rachel Reeves is going for fiscal responsibility over a balanced economy.
They believe the private sector can generate endless growth to pay tax bills - and that is exactly the same as the Tory position. And the Tory ideology has done what?
It couldn't be more back to front.
Private sector growth follows government spending.
Just remember negative growth before COVID - but massive government spend to get us through, and keep the economy ticking over.
They didn't draw the cash from the private sector because it simply doesn't work that way, and wasn't there.
It's all the damn evidence you need.
Thus if the chequebook is closed due to some household accounting mythology, can you tell me where the money will come from to create Labour's booming economy?
Private sector growth follows government spending.
Yup. Current example being offshore wind. Example in Labour policy is the onshore renewable ramp up they have proposed. Labour are proposing spending more money. But every spending commitment will mention a change in taxation and spending elsewhere, because, for Labour, convincing the public that they will spend wisely and well, and also keep on eye on tax revenue is the stuff elections are won and lost on. Despite a decade of the Tories leaking money like a sieve that is still true for older voters. Tories have to reassure that they won't break the NHS (I personally think they'll lose that argument at the next election, when they have had four years to deal with the additional demands caused by Covid and can't just blame their failures on the pandemic), and Labour have to reassure that their plans are costed and deliverable. Not fair, not a level battle ground, but Starmer and Reeves would be naive in the extreme to ignore it.
Listening to Starmer's speech and the difference between Sunak couldn't be more stark. He actually sounds like a normal person rather than a patronising AI chatbot. Doesn't really matter what he says any more, all he has to do against Sunak is sound like a human. The tories will be panicking.
Yep, he's coming across well and also saying a lot of good things
Some extremely strong and likeable stuff on devolving political and economic power in that speech. I reckon he's the only politician I"ve heard who actually understands what brexit was really about. Finding it very hard not to like Starmer at the moment. All the stuff he says about westminster centralised politics not working will be a massive vote winner.
Listening to Starmer’s speech and the difference between Sunak couldn’t be more stark
Looking at the shambles the country is in at the moment, only one of the two looks like they’re even acknowledging the issues, never mind engaging with and addressing them. The other is just spouting patronising platitudes.
Liking what I’m hearing about devolving power to the regions. That’s going to be music to the ears of everyone outside Westminster
This will not be making for comfortable viewing in number ten, that’s for sure
Liking what I’m hearing about devolving power to the regions.
It makes the elections of Mayors in England between now and the next general election more important as well.
Better Q&A for him than past attempts at this. Answers seem less evasive, more direct.
Sunak truly is rubbish at conviction. He's not going to last.
But the bar is so low these days.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1610950284771033090?s=20&t=OqbUJEYpOhI8gjz-3_d6QA
I couldn't give a stuff about speeches (have you seen where that gets us?)
But the mechanics are critical.
Some extremely strong and likeable stuff on devolving political and economic power in that speech. I reckon he’s the only politician I”ve heard who actually understands what brexit was really about. Finding it very hard not to like Starmer at the moment. All the stuff he says about westminster centralised politics not working will be a massive vote winner.
Trouble is he says some good stuff sometimes, and I think he is making progress, then he contradicts the good things with other statements and actions.
It is hard to see if he is a progressive, trying to keep the press and the oligarchs onside, or if he is just another free market capitalist selling false hope to progressives. He isn't consistent in his message and actions and that is worrying.
IMO he is a technocrat. ( as Wilson was again IMO)
then he contradicts the good things with other statements and actions.
Where he falls down is that he's too keen to placate the right wing press by fighting his party. I get why he thinks he needs to do that but it's really not necessary. The left of the party would get behind him if he gave them the chance, but it would appear he doesn't want that. I can ignore that though if he implements all the stuff he says he is going to. There's not a lot of what he is saying on the policy front that the left would disagree with.
From Starmer's speech. Pretty much what I've been saying on here about brexit for the past two years. What I want to know now is what powers they'll be devlolving and whether they are going to provide the money to give them teeth. I'm still very sceptical on the latter part, but I have an inkling his 'no big chequebook' stuff is simply PR to placate the idiots who don't understand how government finances work. His reluctance to commit to tory spending plans is the give away.
"I go back to Brexit. Yes, a whole host of issues were on that ballot paper. But as I went around the country, campaigning for Remain, I couldn’t disagree with the basic case so many Leave voters made to me.
People who wanted public services they could rely on. High streets they could be proud of. Opportunities for the next generation. And all of this in their town or city.
It was the same in the Scottish referendum in 2014 – many of those who voted ‘yes’ did so for similar reasons. And it’s not an unreasonable demand.
It’s not unreasonable for us to recognise the desire for communities to stand on their own feet. It’s what Take Back Control meant. The control people want is control over their lives and their community."
It was the same in the Scottish referendum in 2014 – many of those who voted ‘yes’ did so for similar reasons. And it’s not an unreasonable demand.
Wrong. 100% wrong. shows how little he understands scotland
Wrong. 100% wrong.
So people voting for independence didn't want more devolved power and to stand on their own feet? 🤔
And he didn't explain to those leavers that the EU didn't control any of the stuff they wanted and that they could have it more easily in the EU than out because the country would be weathier with higher tax revenues to spend - if only they would stop voting Tory.
And he didn’t explain to those leavers that the EU didn’t control any of the stuff they wanted and that they could have it more easily in the EU than out
I'm pretty sure he did. He was at the forefront of the remain campaign. Whether he meant it or not is another issue but he definitely campaigned for remain, along with the party leadership and rest of the shadow cabinet.
Have you read your own quote to the the end, Dazh? He's saying the take back control point was valid when any one who thought it through knew Britain was giving up any control it had.
The man is a "yes man", he varies what he says so he can say yes to pretty much anyone which means he's seen as back pedalling on pretty much every major issue. Changing his tune constantly with Brexit being his biggest turnaround - from remainer to Brexit apologist, just like yourself, Dazh.
He has no convictions he just blows around with the wind.
from remainer to Brexit apologist, just like yourself, Dazh.
No, just a realist. I would (probably) vote to rejoin tomorrow given the chance, but it's not going to happen. As I've said before, it's a bit like criticising labour for not having a living on Mars policy. Time to move on, the Europe issue is dead and buried.
Time to move on, the Europe issue is dead and buried.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried. At least for our lifetimes. Arguing about it at the next general election would be pointless and self defeating for Labour. But all those other countries are still there and need to be worked with. The Europe issue wasn't done away with by leaving the EU, it's just been transformed into a whole load of different problems that will need addressing not ignored.
Its not a case of rejoining. That just ain't going to happen. Its about rebuilding a workable trading relationship with our neighbours that isn't based on antagonism and confrontation.
Its about rebuilding a workable trading relationship with our neighbours
Yup, and that will happen as a normal function of government. As I've said before though, international trade policy is not the sort of thing that interests people or gets them excited or angry. No political party will ever win an election by promising more trade with foreigners. It needs to happen, but it doesn't win many votes.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried
I agree but what about the sensible option of joining the single market? Pre vote, many of the leave funders were saying that we wouldn't leave the SM.
Brexit would still be dun , the above promises honoured and the sensible people can try and mop up the mess.
I agree but what about the sensible option of joining the single market?
Because that would require freedom of movement. The tories and rightwing press were very successful in blaming immigrants for the failing of our public services. Correcting that lie is not going to be possible until the voters realise that it wasn't immigrants who were to blame. That's going to take a while. When labour gets in and (hopefully) public services are repaired to where they were pre-2010 then we'll be in a position to talk about the single market again. It'll be at least another 10 years basically.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried
Sorry to break it to you but its not and never will be
the single most destructive act of any government in peacetime. Its ill effects will be felt until we rejoin.
there are a great many folk who are not going to shut up about it. the majority want back in
When labour gets in and (hopefully) public services are repaired to where they were pre-2010
Not going to happen outside the EU
Not going to happen outside the EU
Maybe, but until they try and fail nothing will change on the EU issue. Even then it won't happen, because the debate will have shifted. It will no longer be 'should we rejoin on the terms we had pre-2016', it will be 'should we rejoin and be part of Schengen and the Euro' as that will be what the EU demands. Even if in 10-20 years people are ready to rejoin, there is zero chance this country will ever decide to give up the pound, and quite rightly too for obvious reasons.
Because that would require freedom of movement
Starmer could make a big song and dance about border force strike teams deporting lazy euro scumbags if they didn't get a job in 3 months.
Again you forget Scotland and NI
At some point in the near future both entities will be out of the UK and in the EU - then will flourish. At that point rUK will have to wake up to the reality
But the longer Starmer and labour go on lying about Brexit and pretending they can make it work they harder this will be for rUK to recover and to realise that the EU is the only game in town
Maybe so TJ, but that still takes much the same timeframe as Dazh is saying. 10 years minimum.
Labour are preparing for a dirty fight in a general election relatively soon... there is no way they are putting the "save Brexit" sword in the hands of the Conservatives come that fight.
NI will be a full member as part of a united ireland in under 10 years. I fervently hope Scotland is not far behind
At some point in the near future both entities will be out of the UK and in the EU
Explain to me how Scotland leaves the UK in the near future when neither labour or the tories will allow a new referendum? The SNP have no more leverage to gain than they posess now, so what else are they going to do? Whether you like it or not, Scotland is in this for the long haul along with the rUK. It's possible NI might join a united Ireland as Sinn Fein could win power there on both sides of the border, but even that's unlikely in less than 10 years.
ON NI written into the good friday agreement is that a border poll will be held if there seems to be a majority in the north in favour. that point is now.
On Scotland - do you really think that is going to hold? Are you really stating we should be held captive in a union we no longer want to be a part of? what happens if the pro independence parties get over 50% of the vote in the next GE? Do you think that will hold under a campaign of civil disobedience ( including financial because Scotland supports england financially - the reason they don't want scots independence?) and against International law?
Labour are preparing for a dirty fight in a general election relatively soon… there is no way they are putting the “save Brexit” sword in the hands of the Conservatives come that fight.
The “save Brexit” sword is already in the hands of the Reform?Brexit/Whatever they're called this week Party. Richard Tice (presently leader until Nige hears about an election and returns) was on Newsnight the other night saying that they intend to field candidates in every constituency at the next general election.
They are doing this as they believe that the Tory's have 'Betrayed Brexit' (their terminology).
So now would seem like the ideal time for labour to say nothing about the issue for fear that it would unite these presently warring right wing parties. These lot pulling out their candidates and not fighting the Tories made a massive difference last time around, so if they're now intent on splitting the right wing Brexity gammon vote, let them get on with it. Labour will be the ultimate beneficiary of that
ON NI written into the good friday agreement is that a border poll will be held if there seems to be a majority in the north in favour.
The latest research indicates a very significant majority to remain in the UK.
Explain to me how Scotland leaves the UK in the near future when neither labour or the tories will allow a new referendum?
Armed insurrection? That's the usual endpoint when democratic processes are stifled over a protacted period.
Do you think that will hold under a campaign of civil disobedience
What campaign of civil disobedience? I've not read or heard anything from the SNP that suggests they'll be organising protests or direct action. I think you're just making stuff up now. Perhaps you think Sturgeon is going to do a Catalonia? I doubt it, not sure she has the stomach for living in exile or going to prison.
Armed insurrection?
Getting silly now. Just who among the Scottish regiments who have been loyal to the British monarchy for centuries do you think are going to take up arms against their countrymen?
Yeah tj just keep going for vote after vote until you get the result you want
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime, can't throw the toys out and demand another vote it just makes you look silly
Hmmm - I went and had a look and it does seem its shifted away from reunification on a recent poll. Hmmm
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime,
Nice patronising and incorrect. It was a throwaway remark from Salmond and really you don't think circumstances have changed? It was anever a part of anything official and the provisions in the good friday agreement suggest every 7 years for a political generation
anyway - thread drift sorry
Final bit about Starmer and how he is seen in Scotland then Iwill leave this to your little englander brexiteer fantasies. SNP spokesbod
Today’s intervention from Keir Starmer promised a decade of renewal but the reality is another decade of crippling austerity for Scotland from Westminster.
The leader of the official opposition doesn’t only embrace the wrecking ball that is Brexit - he’s now stealing their campaign slogans. Meanwhile, Brexit is hammering Scotland’s economy in the midst of the deepest cost of living crisis in decades.
Labour are now carbon-copy Tories on Brexit, the co-conspirators to hush up the true cost of Brexit. Today’s speech only confirms that the next general election is a choice between two Tory prime ministers.
Two cheeks of the same arse. The final nail in Scottish labours coffin.
Yeah tj just keep going for vote after vote until you get the result you want
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime, can’t throw the toys out and demand another vote it just makes you look silly
It was Alex Salmond who made the reference to a 'once in a lifetime opportunity' as an off the cuff remark during a press conference, and not something that was ever drafted as an SNP policy - but don't let facts get in the way of spouting your wee 'yoon' pish.
As an alternative, you could turn your attention to the statement, repeatedly made, that the only way to secure Scotland's place within the EU was to vote 'no' to independence. Strangely enough, that rarely comes up as a binding commitment, despite it being part of the official Better Together campaign's pitch to the electorate.
Getting silly now. Just who among the Scottish regiments who have been loyal to the British monarchy for centuries do you think are going to take up arms against their countrymen?
You asked what alternatives there were if Westminster governments keep ignoring the will of the electorate on a repeating basis. Nobody sane wants to head down that path, but if people can’t achieve their desired outcomes by democratic means, even recent history shows us how rapidly a situation can become toxic.
little englander brexiteer fantasies
If that were true I'd want Scotland to leave. I very much don't want them to.
"if you love them let them be free"
My preference is not for independence either. But I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU. Independence is my only way of getting those things as neither are on offer from Westminster as Starmers speech shows
And you are a brexiteer fantasist because you don't understand there is no real route to repairing the UK outside the EU and a little englander as you neither care about nor understand scotland and its politics but just want us to know our place
The absolute implication of this speech is that Starmer completely believes that government budgets must be run like those of a household.
No, the implication is that Starmer wants the electorate to think that he wants to run the government budget like a household.
The implication is that Starmer will run a tory lite government of privitisation and austerity with a caring face
I don't know that anyone can be sure what the undercurrents are as they cannot explicitly state any pro EU or anti-Brexit stance for fear of either, spooking the Lexiteers and they can't suggest anything that could be painted as financially irresponsible because the RW press will tear them a new one for it - all the while ignoring the scale of Tory incompetence/embezzlement over recent times.
Anyone with any sense has just got to trust that Labour's cloak of Tory-lite is better than any flavour of actual Tory.
But I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU.
For god sake man just wait a few years. If Starmer is true to his word you will get the progressive government you want. It won't be as radical as Corbyn promised, but if he follows through on everything he's proposing it'll be light years away from what we have now. If after a couple of terms of labour things haven't improved, then by all means lets have a debate about EU/single market/whatever. We've only been out of the EU a couple of years during a pandemic with a completely incompetent, dysfunctional and chaotic govt. What's wrong with a bit of patience?
And I'm really not a little Englander. If you'd read anything I've said over the past couple of years you'd see I've been consistently arguing for power to be devolved to the lowest practical level. That includes Scotland, Wales, NI, the english regions, and even towns and cities. If I had my way we'd have a federal system, and maybe we might get that in future. If Scotland were serious about being more independent and empowered then that's what they should be aiming for.
The implication is that Starmer will run a tory lite government of privitisation and austerity with a caring face
TJ you used to be one of the biggest cheerleaders for Starmer on here and dismissed the lefty criticisms of him, but now because you don't like his stance on the EU you suddenly think he's a closet tory? 🤷♂️
If I had my way we’d have a federal system, and maybe we might get that in future.
🙏🏼
TJ you used to be one of the biggest cheerleaders for Starmer on here and dismissed the lefty criticisms of him, but now because you don’t like his stance on the EU you suddenly think he’s a closet tory?
I had high hopes for him. I have changed my mind given recent speeches and announcements and his endorsement of Streeting
What has changed my mind? His refusal to talk about real constitutional reform. His refusal to even think about Scotland instead attempting to gaslight and patronise. His endorsement of brexit is the biggest issue and the lies he has told over this. Now todays speech includes further privitisation
there is nothing "progressive" on offer from labour
so we have an antidemocratic, privitising brexiteer - or in other words tory lite
Also the fact he has allowed Scottish labour to do deals with the tories and enter coalitions with them on councils
Labour have forgotton who the enemy is. Its not the EU, its not the SNP - its the tories.
Poundshop Blair.
The costed, social democratic manifestos of JC's leadership were worth voting for.
Brexit? Yes, I hate it's self destructive, ignorant stupidity, but I understand it.
Just as I understand the LA riots.
When you can't destroy the people who have ****ed you over, you turn your hate on yourselves.
This man is a coward.
Oh, Scotland;
Well done electing a decent leader.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
No, he is a realist and he's just trying to get Labour elected - which is nearer now than at anytime in the last 13 years. How did Corbyn work out for you?
What Winston said. If he goes too far off piste then the Daily Hate, Scum, and Daily Excrete will be all over him and demonising him to their readership and then what happens... He needs to play the long game.
I quite liked Corbyn but we saw how that ended up.
Poundshop Blair.
The PR and party management are the same as Blair, but the policies are well to the left of new labour and Miliband. And he’s the only mainstream political leader who seems to understand what brexit was about. The key question is whether he’s genuine or if it’s all just a smokescreen to get elected.
And how did it work out for Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband? They both managed to get Labour a smaller share of the vote in general elections than Corbyn did.
Starmer isn't trying to do anything, the Tories are doing it all for him.
And in a further boost to Starmer Reform UK has announced that they will stand in every single seat in the next general election. Last general election they stood aside in 300 seats to help the Tories beat Labour.
The Guardian: Reform UK to field candidate against every Tory at next election, says leader.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/04/reform-uk-field-candidate-against-every-tory-next-election-richard-tice
Give credit where credit is due but I don't see why Starmer should be praised for the Tories's kamikaze politics and their daily foot shooting exercises, or Reform UK significantly boosting his chances.
but the policies are well to the left of new labour and Miliband
What? Brexit, no democracy for scotland or serious constitutional reform, no redistribution of wealth, more privitisation and nothing for the health service?
Lying over brexit is his biggest failing. " no economic case for rejoining" ~Does he think we are stupid?
He is leading a centre right party now and an antidemocratic one at that
How did Corbyn work out for you?
He reminded me that the alternatives, cowardice and appeasement taste like shit.
He reinforced my belief that I'd rather live on my feet than die on my knees.
The media treatment of him reminded me that even at an advanced age, I might need to resort to violence to achieve genuine democracy.
Have you read this TJ?
Yes. pure wishful thinking. He has made it utterly clear. Lie about brexit. No serious constitutional reform. Scots know your place and do as you are told ( and he has made it obvious he neither understands or cares about scotland) Nothing for the health service, more austerity.
Do you honestly think Labour would be so far ahead in the polls if Corbyn and his front bench were still in place? In fact a big part of the reason the current crop of 'Torys' are in place is because of Labour party in-fighting over the last 5 years. I fully accept that the media went for Corbyn like he was some rabid dog but the net result was still no labour govt and this is the problem that Starmer is solving by steadily bringing Labour back to a party that can be accepted by mainstream media and therefore by those that are led by the nose by them.
Is it the right way to govern a country? No
Is it the only way to currently change the government? Well short of a full scale revolution, yes.
Edit (for Rustyspanner) Posted before I saw your last post. Rather live on your feet would you? Well how about all those are ARE dying on their knees, dying on their backs in ambulances and dying on streets all around the country due to an underfunded NHS and no social care. Yes Corbyn would have fixed this and possibly with better results than Starmer but not if he never got elected he wouldn't.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
I hope Starmer is just lying to the Brexiteers. To be fair, they're usually happy being lied to, so it is no great shakes if he is.
Get elected then rejoin unilaterally, let the uncontestable benefits accrue and become obvious, then say "told you so", then legislate to make it illegal to ever consider leaving again.
Sometimes the fantasy world is the nicest one (unfortunately it is often the most sensible one nowadays).
🦄🦄🦄🦄
Corbyn would have been PM had labour in Scotland not had a pact with the tories that gave the tories 10 scottish seats
and an antidemocratic one at that
I have to say that what Starmer is doing to the Labour Party is what concerns me most. Even the control-freaky that occurred under New Labour didn't compare with Starmer's Stalinist grip on the party. A party that doesn't tolerate dissent and expels people on the most frivolous of allegations, such as liking the tweet of a Green Party member, is not a healthy party.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-expelled-caroline-lucas-tweet-b2230584.html
Allowing Scottish labour who are 100% under london control to do deals and create coalitions with the tories is worse IMO. That shows how far right labour is now. along with a promise of more privatisation and nothing for Nurses, nurse training or the future of the NHS
Edit - especially when the labour / tory pact saved May, stopped Corbyn becoming PM and led to brexit. But then we always knew the labour right would prefer to be in opposition than to be left wing
The anti democratic bit is the refusal off a second scots referendum when we have voted for one 4 times. Thats a democratic defit worthy of a dictatorship
Well Danny is hoping that Starmer's anti-democratic credentials will help to achieve your rejoin dream:
I hope Starmer is just lying to the Brexiteers.......Get elected then rejoin........ then legislate to make it illegal to ever consider leaving again.
Edit (for Rustyspanner) Posted before I saw your last post. Rather live on your feet would you? Well how about all those are ARE dying on their knees, dying on their backs in ambulances and dying on streets all around the country due to an underfunded NHS and no social care. Yes Corbyn would have fixed this and possibly with better results than Starmer but not if he never got elected he wouldn’t.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
How many people are you prepared to see die?
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
Its not significantly better what we are being offered by Starmer
Pro brexit
Pro privitisation of the health service
Anti democratic on both Scotland and the constitution
the choice is hard right tory or centre right tory lite. Thats your choice for Westminster. It stinks. He has offered us zero on rebuilding the UK just a better managed decline and further destruction of the NHS.
Starmer is solving by steadily bringing Labour back to a party that can be accepted by mainstream media
Well the BBC is still the biggest broadcaster and very much in the hands of the Tories because the current government is Tory and as Billy Bragg noted you should wake up to the fact your paper is Tory.
So short of becoming a Tory Starmer won't be accepted by mainstream media. Perhaps this is why he looks and sounds too much like a Tory. A Brexity Tory at that.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
One problem is if the "better" government is simply offering a bit better than the crap government is you normalise a lot of the crap governments actions and so shift the overton window.
By accepting the hardright press definition of whats acceptable you end up having anything slightly left wing defined as "far left" whilst rabid right policies Thatcher would have raised an eyebrow at now considered the norm.
Its also a tad rich of all the centrists announcing that now its time to pull together despite their actions.
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
True. But a Labour government with a massive majority would be a colossal step forward, especially if Tory vote goes into meltdown.
The benefits which would come from such a situation would be huge and extensive, too many IMO to be bothered going through them.
Of course the next Labour government won't satisfy the needs of the electorate, and I have no doubt that Starmer will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate PM, but that will be one of the advantages of having a Labour government - it will help to put to bed the idea that right-wing economic policies are fundamentally correct as long as they delivered by a Labour government.
It will provide a basis for a step forward. But only if the Tories have been comprehensively discredited, which currently seems likely like never before, otherwise we will simply revert back to a Tory government at the first opportunity.
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
It's like someone offering to pick the nuts or sweetcorn out your shit sandwich.
and I have no doubt that Starmer will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate PM
I genuinely have no idea what sort of PM he’ll be. I think after the lesson of Blair’s hopeless inaction we can be fairly sure he’ll be more proactive. I think we could see a tsunami of legislation in the first couple of years. I get the feeling he wants to actually do stuff.
A good litmus test will be whether he quickly brings in the reforms to workers rights he’s promising. Blair quickly found excuses to delay any changes on union laws and then dropped them. I fear Starmer will do the same under pressure from the business lobby.