Starmer is part of the same system. Labour get into power and we get to feel a bit better about ourselves/society meanwhile the same neo-liberal bs happens just with friendlier sounding people in charge. Forgive me for not getting excited about that.
If you have that perspective then you aren't going to make things change
One of Labour’s biggest donors is a hedge fund manager (which they tried to keep secret):
How influence do they get for that money when the Union funding dwarfs it? The cooperative party donates more. If I was Starmer I'd be working hard to shore those donations up rather than the honey trap of hedge fund managers.
Or are they taking them for a ride? Rubber chicken lunch with Starmer who just nods away and then has the real chats with the traditional funders?
I’ve asked repeatedly, how things would be different to the current status quo, under Starmer, but as yet, none of you Armresters have actually given an answer. Why is that?
As the current policy of renationalisation of billions of £ 's of assets is still there I would suggest fairly major changes.
Even with a mountain of evidence, the Armresters still think their clean-shaven messiah can do no wrong. In fact, one could even say that their devotion is almost cult-like….
Do you read this thread? Starmer has moved from "a new hope" to FFS fairly quickly. If he doesn't have a good conference then he's just going to nudge along until put out of his misery
The bigger issue is that if he goes Richard Burgon might have a shot at the leadership.....
And that pretending to want ‘change’ from tory rule is nothing more than virtue signalling.
Voting for labour isn't virtue signalling, the left not voting labour is virtue signalling
but as yet, none of you Armresters have actually given an answer.
to whom are you addressing this? As far as I know there's no one on this thread who actually thinks he's doing a decent job.
As the current policy of renationalisation of billions of £ ‘s of assets is still there I would suggest fairly major changes.
There have been mutterings that this policy isn't popular with Labour's um..... backers... so I don't expect it to last.
There have been mutterings that this policy isn’t popular with Labour’s um….. backers… so I don’t expect it to last.
The unions love it
Voting for labour isn’t virtue signalling, the left not voting labour is virtue signalling
No; voting where your conscience takes you is called Freedom of Democracy. Ask your mate Keir what that actually means; he doesn't seem to have much of an idea....
How influence do they get for that money when the Union funding dwarfs it?
Unions represent the interests of actual workers, not private wealth. Union representation comes through democratic processes; again, ask your mate Keir what Democracy means. So union funding SHOULD be far greater than private donations. Armrest seems more interested in courting private wealth than bothering with unions though.
As the current policy of renationalisation
Corbyn's policy, you mean? That Armrest seems loathe to actually fully commit to...
Do you read this thread?
Yes. That's why I remember that you Armresters continually fail to actually answer any questions put to you, and instead just drone on about how it's all Corbyn/the Left's fault or some other such crap. And it's why I don't need something explained repeatedly, unlike yourself, as I had to do that earlier.
The bigger issue is that if he goes Richard Burgon might have a shot at the leadership…..
I'd vote for that, if only to see the bedwetters on here lose their shit. 😀
If you have that perspective then you aren’t going to make things change
Whereas if you have the perspective that things will change under armrest, then you're seriously deluded.
No they’re just terrified of upsetting the…
People whose votes they need if they are ever to be in government again.
Starmer is part of the same system.
He really isn’t. But he is in the position of having to take flak based on the actions of other politicians, past and present, from some quarters, using this lazy “they’re all the same” nonsense. As will the next party leader.
He really isn’t.
Well that's a well-reasoned response to clear evidence that he is.
Do I think Keir Starmer is a much better person than BJ? Of course, but I doubt it would make much difference.
I’d vote for that, if only to see the bedwetters on here lose their shit.
Rapidly coming to the conclusion that you’re a right winger playing a part here. Your every post reads like a right winger’s jokey idea of what a petulant left winger could be like, rather then expressing the attitude and language of any genuine left winger I know.
John McDonald trying to stop the Starmer reforms "grubby stitch-up deals" etc on Radio 4 this morning and I imagine a tour of studios
Starmer is going to have a battle at conference which is going to distract from getting a external message out.
He is also in danger of making Labour look not only focussed inwards, but also backwards. They need to reform the way they elect the leader, it’s too slow and inflexible. But any new system that, even if only on the surface, looks like the system they had before the Miliband reforms will make Labour look like a party going backwards.
Question - the Labour voters who can't vote Labour because of Starmer and his puppet masters, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?
Your question expresses my thinking, kerley. A SKS Labour Party is currently not "wow-ing" me, but I wouldn't give anyone else my vote as it feels wasted until we get some kind of PR system (if ever...)
Who: Plaid Cymru
Why: FREEDOM!
NB. I'm in a pretty tight seat so may end up voting Labour.
Question – the Labour voters who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer and his puppet masters, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?
If you're genuinely interested, you could rephrase your question to be less loaded.
They need to reform the way they elect the leader
maybe they do. But, folk are worrying about heating prices going up, lack of food on the table and prices of food going up, on-going COVID19 job issues , cost of living increases, loss of benefits and a tax hike in the spring, and I don't hear Starmer holding Johnson to account on these things.
If you’re genuinely interested, you could rephrase your question to be less loaded.
It is a great example of the disdain for democratic choice though. The classic "well you have no one else to vote for so tough shit". Missing the fact that approach was the new labour one last time round and plenty of people found other parties that did, at least, pretend to represent them preferable.
I'll rephrase it
Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?
, folk are worrying about heating prices going up, lack of food on the table and prices of food going up, on-going COVID19 job issues , cost of living increases, loss of benefits and a tax hike in the spring, and I don’t hear Starmer holding Johnson to account on these things.
Kuensberg was doing his job for him last night on the BBC, though I did wonder if her old pal and "source at No10" Cummings had put her up to it.
Starmers complete failure to be seen to holding the government's feet to the fire over their failure to manage the impact of Brexit and Covid has been utterly embarrassing. He could have done it without undermining the "will of the people" or "playing politics" with the pandemic.
He'll never win over the diehard Tory supporters, so what. He's missing the opportunity to win over the waiverers and disenfranchised he needs to kick the Tories
It is a great example of the disdain for democratic choice though.
It reflects the reality of the way we implement democracy. If your party isn't on the ballot paper you can't vote for it. If your party can't get 326+ seats directly or indirectly you aren't the government, if you aren't the government you aren't legislating, if you aren't legislating you cannot make significant changes to the way the country is run
The classic “well you have no one else to vote for so tough shit”.
I'm in the "least worst" club most of the time, it means I'll vote for a rainbow of parties, sometimes it is a FFS moment, sometimes it's a positive action, sometimes a make a change happen. The sad reality is that my choice is limited to what is on the ballot paper, so yes often there is no-one else to vote for
It reflects the reality of the way we implement democracy.
No it represents a claimed reality. What it actually results in is people chosing not to vote because all the politicians are the same as each other or voting for a change, any change.
I would have thought this belief in the divine right to all left wing votes would have been broken by now.
if you aren’t legislating you cannot make significant changes to the way the country is run
Actually you can by providing a choice and forcing other parties to respond to that. If you simply provide a watered down version of their politics then you dont make them respond in anyway aside from shifting further to the side in order to differentiate.
We can look at the influence UKIP has or even the limited impact of the Green party whose policies have been taken up by the mainstream in order to avoid losing votes there.
In answer to the voting question I'll be voting Lib Dem because Tim Farron is a very good constituency MP and Labour have zero chance here anyway.
Also, unless you're a boomer voting is largely pointless, as we've previously covered.
Rapidly coming to the conclusion that you’re a right winger playing a part here.
What was the thing about ad hominem attacks again?
It looks like the Labour Party Conference is going to be an absolute gift for Boris and the Tory press.
As a winter of food shortages and people struggling with sky-rocketing fuel bills approaches, and with Covid far from over, they'll be able to point at the civil war about to break out and say 'look... look at these mad loony lefties... naval gazing and self-absorbed... banging on about electoral systems and having a scrap with themselves... just imagine if these nutters were in charge?'
An absolutely insane decision to decide to fight that battle now. If it needed to be fought at all. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns
I truly despair of the Labour party. The lot of them. It simply isn't fit to call an opposition. Boris must be laughing his tits off watching this developing car crash.
Rapidly coming to the conclusion that you’re a right winger playing a part here. Your every post reads like a right winger’s jokey idea of what a petulant left winger could be like, rather then expressing the attitude and language of any genuine left winger I know.
Lol! So many comedians on here! 😀
I truly despair of the Labour party. The lot of them. It simply isn’t fit to call an opposition. Boris must be laughing his tits off watching this developing car crash.
There there. Your clean-shaven messiah is turning out to be an utter failure, isn't he? Do you feel somewhat embarrassed by backing the wrong horse now? Is the reality of the fact that Armrest really is just a right-wing establishment stooge, starting to finally sink in now?
Bless.
Which horse should he have backed?
And that goes for the other members who voted for him as well... which of the alternative candidates should they have voted for? Starmer never looked the person to take Labour into the next election to me... but I can't honestly say that any of the others looked like a better choice back then... and maybe still don't.
So... back around again... assuming Starmer doesn't take Labour into the next election (I hope he doesn't)... who should?
It looks like the Labour Party Conference is going to be an absolute gift for Boris and the Tory press.
Yep. Starmer has chosen to pick a fight with his own party rather than focus on the Tories. Genius.
Anyway, I'll vote Green next time as the party which most closely represents my values.
So… back around again… assuming Starmer doesn’t take Labour into the next election (I hope he doesn’t)… who should?
Richard Burgon. 😀
I would have thought this belief in the divine right to all left wing votes would have been broken by now.
I don't see a left wing alternative on my ballot paper other than the occasional green party candidate.
Who does the left wing voter put an X in the box for when its the three main parties
We can look at the influence UKIP has or even the limited impact of the Green party whose policies have been taken up by the mainstream in order to avoid losing votes there.
UKIP imploded after the Brexit vote, the Greens have nudged but a lot has come from science and people of other political persuasions
The reality is the neither are legislating for major changes
Is the reality of the fact that Armrest really is just a right-wing establishment stooge, starting to finally sink in now?
As was the case with Corbyn, I'm less bothered by what he is or isn't, ideology-wise, what I'd like to see is a basic level of competence.
I lived in hope that after 5 years of almost comedic 'leadership' we might actually get that.
I find the decision to do this now to be absolutely inexplicable. Its madness
It shows that the labour leadership is utterly detached from reality. After the absence of any firm policies, I expected conference to be a platform for some sort of manifesto. Instead he's decided to have an utterly pointless battle with his own party
Tory Central Office must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the Labour conference.
The next election is already in the bag
It shows that the labour leadership is utterly detached from reality
Are you going to stop blaming Corbyn, 'Lefties', 'tin-foil-helmeted nutters', etc now then? Or is it all still Karl Marx's fault?
They're all as bad as each other. Nobody comes out of this well. The self-indulgence is absolutely beyond belief
They’re all as bad as each other
"There are good people on both sides"
So is this finally an admission that Starmer is useless then? Go on; you can say it...
Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?
How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn't happened.
I’m less bothered by what he is or isn’t, ideology-wise, what I’d like to see is a basic level of competence.
So if you're not actually bothered by actual ideology, then Boris seems to be pretty competent at holding office and being unencumbered by any form of effective opposition right now, and looks set to continue tory rule for some time to come. If 'winning' is all you care about, why not just vote tory? That way, you can be on the 'winning' team', and get to gloat about those losers in other teams...
Question – the Labour voters and people who identify as left wing who can’t vote Labour because of Starmer, who are you voting for and what do you think will be achieved from your vote?
Whoever will beat the tories.
In my case being in Scotland labour are a busted flush and have no chance of any power and are still behaving awfully making deals with the tories to keep the SNP out in many places. How on earth they can do this and still pretend to be the labour party astonishes me when there is barely a fag paper between the SNP and Labour on policy (this is in local councils where the constitutional question is irrelevant
I will look at the polling for my constituency and of course it matters which election but probable green unless it looks like the tories might take the seat ( highly unlikely)
My SNP MP is an really nasty liar, My MSP is also SNP but a good bloke. Greens could come second in the seat - its now really a 4 way marginal ( SNP. labour, tory. green)
If I was in an english constituency I would be voting labour
If ‘winning’ is all you care about, why not just vote tory?
Because I despise them with every fibre of my being and desperately want to see a labour government
Would you believe I was actually at a meeting last night of my CLP to select a candidate for next years local elections. I watched three thoroughly decent people, who give up their time to try and make peoples lives better, list what they intend to do to help the local community
Then you look at whats going on in the Parliamentary party and think WTF has this got to do with the real people that the Labour party are actually meant to represent? And what on earth are they doing to help the people I saw last night? What the hell is it they're actually playing at?
Its absolutely tragic!
I truly despair. We're looking at permanent Tory government
How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn’t happened.
Again, I don't think they are any. I don't know of anyone who routinely posts on this thread who thinks he's doing a decent job.
Tory Central Office must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the Labour conference.
They are no doubt involved with the puppet masters controlling Starmer which explains his actions. Makes you think eh...
How about the Armresters on here start answering some of the many questions put to them, first? So far, that hasn’t happened.
As there are no Starmer supporters on this thread how about answering the question I asked about who are you going to vote for to get your left wing party?
As there are no Starmer supporters on this thread
But where have they all gone???
Because I despise them with every fibre of my being and desperately want to see a labour government
But what do you mean by a 'Labour government'? A government which holds Socialist principles at it's core, which exists to represent working people in parliament, or the Blairite right-wing shell of self-interested neoliberals who will happily hand power to corporate interests, in exchange for enormous personal wealth?
how about answering the question I asked about who are you going to vote for to get your left wing party?
Richard Burgon. Next question...
Who does the left wing voter put an X in the box for when its the three main parties
It depends on if any of them are left wing doesnt it? If none are particularly then just possibly none and go for alternate forms of political engagement.
Its the problem with the idea of dragging Labour rightwards to appeal to tory voters. Why should someone vote for a party which no longer represents them?
UKIP imploded after the Brexit vote,
Yes after they succeeded in the job at hand. So major impact on legislation.
Likewise with the Greens actually making it visible you get some action in order to capture votes which would go to them.
But where have they all gone???
I don't think you're asking honestly. But in the spirit of the thread, I think are/were folk on here, who either thought it could work, or actively voted for him as party leader on the strength of 1.Same policies, 2. promised unification. 3 perhaps more competence. I think all of those folk have been disappointed and most, if not all have said so
Richard Burgon. Next question…
Will the Tony Benn Memorial University ever be built?
