None of this can be blamed on the left. All they’ve ever wanted is for Starmer to do what he promised when he campaigned for the leadership.
As do non Labour members.
I sit on too many local committees where valuable time and opportunities are lost by people arguing about points of order and not focusing on the issues. Labour are just blowing this up to a disastrously national level, and giving a large number of disillusioned Tory voters nowhere else to go.
What is it with the need for insults?
Because they have no coherent, intelligent argument. It's easier to continue to hurl abuse, than actually challenge anything. Look how none have actually answered any questions as to how things might actually be better under Starmer, for example.
I'm still waiting to be schooled on just how great neoliberalism has worked out for everyone. I suspect I'll be waiting for some time...
starmer shouldnt be wasting his time doing it, but equally the left or whoever is objecting should just shrug & say, OK whatevs, this isnt ideal but Ill keep schtum because policies matter more
So, just like what the Blairites did, then? Oh....
The US has a neoliberal economy, yet so does Germany. Other than the basics of capitalism, they have very little in common. You blanket condemn all forms of neoliberalism and then get your petticoats all ruffled when you’re accused of sixth form level politics
German economy whilst still Capitalist is not hell-bent on shrinking the state to deliver laissez-faire economics.
Not all capitalism is neolibralism.
We have a particularly vicious and failing system.
Doesn't matter, it's all falling apart now anyway. It's been on the cards for ages.
No wait; let's hear from the Professor of Global Politics at the RSE (Ramsbottom School of Economics). 😀
Doesn’t matter, it’s all falling apart now anyway. It’s been on the cards for ages.
Seems even Sleepy Joe reckons neoliberalism is over:
‘there are some very fine people on both sides’
I was saying the complete opposite, that there are people complicit on both sides as regards an inwards looking at war with itself Labour Party. Not “fine people” at all, but myopic fools gifting Johnson and his fellow travellers a free ride.
Anyway, I’m calling it… Miliband having a second shot at being leader. He’s a whole new man in his current role.
Surely Kelvin youagree that the centrists have been x10 worse than the people on the left of the party?
I was saying the complete opposite, that there are people complicit on both sides as regards an inwards looking at war with itself Labour Party.
You need to understand that the Labour party has a structural power imbalance and this is an attempt by the holders of that power to tip the scales still further in their favour.
Myopic.
Myopic.
They are being, yes. Extremely. Unfortunately there are enough useful idiots saying "but what about the left?" for them to get away with it.
Ever decreasing circles of “it’s all their fault”, meanwhile Labour has already lost the next election.
What's myopic is making stupid false equivalences.
Ever decreasing circles of “it’s all their fault”,
'the left' are largely an irrelevance/been booted out of the party now but still everything is somehow all their fault. There's only one side with all the power now, does that not also come with responsibility?
We even have binners now slating the centrist leadership for pursuing a vendetta against the left/the membership, but kelvin's not having it!
The people who've been kicked out of the party should compromise, or something 🥴
I was saying the complete opposite, that there are people complicit on both sides
Mmm yeah good point, the allies in WWII carried out war crimes as well as the Nazis.
Yes- but do you agree Kelvin?
Your opinion will not tip the balance either way in the next G.E so no need to hold back.
Ever decreasing circles of “it’s all their fault”, meanwhile Labour has already lost the next election.
You really don't get it. The left has been stripped of its agency so Labour's success or failure now belongs to its right. So far, it seems keen on ostracising an elderly film director and gerrymandering election rules for its own benefit. That should get the red wall back.
somehow all their fault
No, it is not. Not in my opinion anyway. But the idea that only the “others” are at fault is not one I agree with. The whole ongoing mess is not just the fault of “one side”. There are absolutely some on the left, both still in the party and now outside it, that are just as damaging to Labour as the worst on the right of the party.
But the idea that only the “others” are at fault is not one I agree with.
Good thing no one has said that then.
Corbyn getting elected was completely out of order. Yvette Cooper had a face like a slapped arse for years after.
& the temerity to contest the second leadership election! The ****!
do you agree Kelvin?
Agree with what? That one “side” is more damaging than the other? Depends when you are talking about. If you mean this year, right now, then I think it’s pretty even stevens.
Anyway, Nazis have been mentioned. This is a waste of time.
I don't mean right now I mean since Corbyn was elected. God knows how you think its even stevens now!
On the one side you have expulsions and trying to change how leaders are elected to make sure a lefty never gets in and on the other? A couple of twitter posts?
Members were kicked out of the party while Corbyn was leader. Corbyn and his leadership team also (rightly in many cases, in my opinion) changed how the party made decisions. I’ve already said that I think Starmer and his team are making a big mistake pushing for their reforms, as regards how the leader is chosen, right now, especially if they look like a return to old ways, rather than a fresh approach.
But even stevens over the piece and now?
Members were kicked out of the party while Corbyn was leader.
Who? How many? Were there groups that were banned expelling hundreds of members at a stroke? Were there people going over old social media posts to see if anyone had ever supported Blairites so they could be expelled?
You do talk some nonsense kelvin but you're really excelling yourself now.
Were there people going over old social media posts to see if anyone had ever supported Blairites so they could be expelled?
People were kicked out for tweets that were supportive of Green candidates. How many? No idea. Labour’s rules about who can be a member, and what excludes you, has been a mess for a long time. That’s why I’ve not become a member, I’ll vocally support any candidate I want, thank you very much, even if I vote Labour and want a Labour government.
Are you talking about this? 😂
No, never heard of her. I’m referring to people I know.
Ah so something no one can check/confirm, ok, well now I'm convinced.
Well, if you want an example the press covered:
Were supportive of Labour standing aside for an independent to stand on NHS issues against Hunt while he was health secretary. Labour rules don’t allow such eminently non-tribal actions. If they did, I’d join.
Also, most of the people kicked out under Corbyn were his supporters, and they were kicked out to undermine him, not by him. Jeez.
Aaaaand, your example is of someone actively campaigning for a candidate running against a labour candidate, which has never been allowed.
I'm happy for Labour to try and consider more co-operative approaches too but if that's really the best you've got to support your argument...
Yvette Cooper had a face like a slapped arse for years after.
she is a corrupt idiot. totally unfit to be an MP.
kelvin
Full Member
Myopic.
This thread is now as messy and confused as Labour's internal squabbles.
Carry on.
kelvin is very messy and confused rn.
Members were kicked out of the party while Corbyn was leader
Correct: HQ put a lot of effort into denying people the chance to vote for Corbyn.
kelvin is very messy and confused rn.
Yeah, how dare I point out that Labour is always expelling people.
All expulsions are about Corbyn… is that what you really think?
Even stevens though?
Right now, including those on the left who have left the party, absolutely. All that NIP stuff? How was that helpful? All the “Keith” hilarity? Red Tories? All in the name of uniting Labour I suppose.
I think you're on twitter too much
Keith vs changing the way the leader is elected?
Keith vs changing the way the leader is elected?
I don't think we're going to shake Kevin out of his false equivalence schtick.
changing the way the leader is elected?
I’ve said they shouldn’t be doing that right now. But under Corbyn the party was also reformed as to its decision making. And under Miliband. And back, and back. The way the leader is elected absolutely needs reforming at some point though. Or Labour will keep being out manoeuvred by a Tory party that replaces its leaders ruthlessly and relatively quickly.
false equivalence schtick
Sorry I don’t share the viewpoint that it is only those on the right of the party that are responsible for its divisions. Or even that it is more the fault of those on the right. The left absolutely are just as culpable. Compromise is required, and the focus should be on getting the Tories out of government, and Labour elected, to affect change by implementing left wing policies.
I'm amazed anyone could think that its even stevens.
Or even that it is more the fault of those on the right. The left absolutely are just as culpable
This is absolute bullshit. The left simply does not have the power to be "just as culpable". The right is picking the fight, not the left.
I’m amazed anyone could think that its even stevens.
I'm afraid it's part of the narrative: blame the left for your screw ups.
Compromise is required, and focus on getting the Tories out of government, and Labour elected, to affect change by implementing left wing policies.
Under the current leader and those who support him this is a fantasy. He hasn’t compromised, he doesn’t seem too bothered about removing the tories, and he certainly isn’t interested in ‘left wing’ policies.
His only job is regain the power the PLP had during the Blair years. That’s it. They would rather have a Tory government than give up on this singular goal. They’ll fail I think, but we will end up with Tory hegemony, and all because labour MPs are too cowed and insecure to fight for the things they say they believe in.
