It is almost impossible to know who will get voters behind them and who won't so you just need to try it.
Corbyn did a good job at getting voters behind him at the start and it was clear what he stood for and he tried to stick to it. He was unfortunately a gift to the opposition though as too easy to drag things up, make him look a bit silly etc,. even if not really true it was enough to put people off and when up against Johnson and get Brexit done rather than May and whatever she was trying to do if was a non starter. If Corbyn was more of a Johnson, brush it all off, type character would it have made any difference? Who knows?
They don't have any of that with Starmer who I thought would be a good change but quickly turned out he didn't have what it takes. I don't think any of the likely contenders have it either which is a very big problem.
And as I’ve repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile had produced
You sound like the tories who still blame Gordon Brown for wrecking the public finances. At what point are you going to accept that the blame for labour's current problems lies squarely with Starmer and his fellow rightwing travellers?
Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had.
So one of the most useless and self-serving tory governments in history, and starting from the lowest base. Surely then Starmer would have had no problem reducing the polling deficit. How's that going?
We’ll see how food shortages on the run up to Christmas play out with a country that was sold the Brexit colonial sunny uplands bullshit
If your only hope for labour turning things around is hoping the remain brexit doomsday scenario plays out as you think it will then you're in fantasyland. The only thing Starmer has got right is staying a million miles away from the B-word. If your opinion is typical of labour centrists/rightwingers then it only underlines the bankruptcy of ideas and lack of courage and motivation which will enable labour to win an election again.
Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had.
Doesn't really explain this either does it.
Keir Starmer's poll ratings are now worse than Jeremy Corbyn's at the same point in their respective leaderships, polls show.
A new survey from YouGov conducted on Monday found Sir Keir has a net rating of -48, with just 17 per cent of voters saying he is doing well and 65 per cent saying he is doing badly.
At around the same point in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in September 2016, Sir Keir's predecessor had a net rating of -40 per cent.
Mr Corbyn had by this point survived an attempt by internal opponents to oust him as leader, winning the 2016 leadership contest by 62 per cent to 38 for his rival Owen Smith.
And that's with a largely favourable press for Starmer compared to constant vilification.
I’ve repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile
This is very true. You have always attempted to shift the blame for Labour's failure under Starmer onto Corbyn, even when Labour has done substantially worse than it did under Corbyn.
I’ve not said he’s useless at all. you have, repeatedly, but I’m afraid you’re putting words in my mouth there.
No I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm telling you that you know he is useless, that's why you hate talking about him, even on a thread dedicated to Starmer.
Although now you are saying that's it's not too late for Starmer to turn things around and save the day.
I look forward to seeing your posts on this thread between now and the next general election illustrating how Magic Starmer is getting on with his incredible mission.
At what point are you going to accept that the blame for labour’s current problems lies squarely with Starmer and his fellow rightwing travellers?
Both are true. While Corbyn initially energised lots of voters who Labour weren’t connecting with, he also turned off and away many others… more so after sticking around after the 2017 election defeat. The damage done to the perception of the party from 2017-19 will take years to sort. That doesn’t mean that Starmer is the man to do that. He has neutralised some of the mistrust of Labour for some who need to be won over, but is also failing to excite them (or engage well with many of those already wanting Labour to replace the Conservatives).
Labour, somehow, need to replace him a year out from the next election. A near impossible task, because the timing is not in their hands and the party is not able to nimbly install a new leader.
And, also… who should it be? It is a near impossible job at the moment, and the next leader could easily be much worse, rather than better, at in the role. Labour can fall further behind still. Don’t assume things can only get better.
I’m telling you that you know he is useless
Is there anything else you'd like to tell me I 'know', comrade?
Olives aren't the devils chug-nuts and don't taste of washing up liquid?
Pies are over-rated?
It'll be good to see Liverpool win the league?
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Labour can fall further behind still. Don’t assume things can only get better.
Oh don't worry I'm under no illusions things will improve. In fact I've said many times here that labour are looking at a Scottish style collapse in England. They'll be lucky to have more than a 100 MPs after the next election. If you want an explanation then Binners neatly sums it up. All the voting public hear from labour is:
- It's all Corbyn's fault
- Brexit is the disaster we said it would be
- Boris is a clown
There's nothing positive or hopeful there that suggests they'd change things to improve the lives of ordinary people. In fact it only reinforces the general view that labour take people's votes for granted, as if them being in power will suddenly make everything ok again. No one is going to vote for a party which doesn't have the courage of its own convictions and thinks it's entitled to power.
Is there anything else you’d like to tell me I ‘know’, comrade?
Are you actually denying that you think Starmer is useless??? LOL!
So you think he's capable do you?? LOL! You daft Muppet!
I love your innocent naivety binners, it's quite endearing!
No one is going to vote for a party which doesn’t have the courage of it’s own convictions and thinks it’s entitled to power.
How come that works perfectly well for the Tories then?
He has neutralised some of the mistrust of Labour for some who need to be won over
Has he?
Are you actually denying that you think Starmer is useless??? LOL!
At the time of the leadership election, he was clearly the best choice out of those who came forward. Even now that still looks like the case to me. Even though at the time of the contest, and at no point since, has he looked to me as the person to win a general election for Labour. No, he isn’t useless. No, he’s not up to the challenge of the next election. The big question is who will do better? And how do Labour try and time the change of leader to their advantage?
How come that works perfectly well for the Tories then?
You think the tories don't believe in the stuff they're selling?
Also the tories have the one advantage that labour can never really use, which is to leverage people's selfishness. There are huge numbers of people who vote tory for the singular reason that they will be better off financially.
How come that works perfectly well for the Tories then?
Because the Tories don't project a sense of moral superiority over working-class voters calling them misogynist homophobic racists and expect them to automatically vote for them?
You think the tories don’t believe in the stuff they’re selling?
I don’t believe that Johnson believes in anything beyond his own ego, and many of his fellow travellers are in there to simply to asset strip the state and funnel our tax money into their pockets. Do they believe in “levelling up” and “getting Brexit done”? No. They know they are designed to mean different things to different voters. Or in other words, they mean nothing at all.
Gap is closing?
I’d be surprised if that is repeated. But perhaps the summer “handling” of the pandemic, and other aspects of the jobs they’ve fought and lied so hard to get, by part time ministers in a part time government, all off enjoying their holidays abroad while voters find it so hard to do so, isn’t playing so well with the public.
You think the tories don’t believe in the stuff they’re selling?
while it's Tory policy they believe it wholeheartedly. when Tory policies changes, they believe something else instead.
How come that works perfectly well for the Tories then?
The tories are preaching to the converted (can I bring up Tory Britain again 🙂 )
- Immigrants bad, taking our jobs and houses
- Poor people, just scroungers who are not trying hard enough why should we help them
- Public services, don't want to give too much of your tax paying money to that lot of wasters
- etc, etc,.
Labour have to get people to see that all the above is nonsense but it is not an easy job and clearly a lot harder that telling them what they want to hear.
Gap is closing?
That's not the latest poll, the one that rone posted is. It also had a very small sample size, half the sample size of the latest one.
It's been a very long time since any poll gave Labour a lead, there's currently not much evidence that that is likely to change anytime soon.
Because the Tories don’t project a sense of moral superiority over working-class voters
A cursory look at Britannia unchained doesnt really support that.
I don't think most working-class voters form their opinion of political parties from reading books.
For many they once saw the Labour Party as "their" party. Often the MPs they voted came from their industries. They now see no connection with Labour, it's not their party anymore, it's just another part of the establishment.
They are aware of the disdain that many middle-class liberals feel towards them, even if they don't read the brexit thread on stw.
They know that they are "expected" to vote Labour no matter how useless the party and its leader might be.
Perhaps some of them are drawn to vote for another party which also isn't theirs but doesn't dismiss them as bigots and racists?
Who knows, eh?
Perhaps some of them are drawn to vote for another party which also isn’t theirs but doesn’t dismiss them as bigots and racists?
Or maybe they like what the other party is offering (Brexit, immigration etc,.) because they are bigots and racists?
Yeah maybe it's that, they are all bigots and racists.
Surely it can't be more complicated than that?
Perhaps some of them are drawn to vote for another party which also isn’t theirs but doesn’t dismiss them as bigots and racists?
You mean one that embraces bigots and racists? You’re probably right there.
Shame that other party is now run by people that continually dismiss UK workers as lazy. You don’t even have to bother skim reading any of the available concise accounts of Britannia Unchained, just listen to the words of their leader. He recently argued for lowering Universal Credit because he is in favour of people improving their income via “hard work” rather than “handouts”. As if those hit hard by a Covid and Brexit fulled recession and price rises, after years of austerity, and still broke despite working long hours, are struggling to make ends meet because they don’t work hard.
The reason the Tories get in is a supportive press. That is all. Blair got Murdoch et al onside, he won.
Tories have failed year after year to get immigration into to 'the 10s of thousands' as promised in every election manifesto but they are not held accountable and people still vote for them to get immigration down.
They have borrowed more and paid back less than Labour yet are seen as a safe pair of hands with the economy.
Yes, not as many newspapers are sold as 30 years ago but the BBC and other TV news channels still take the lead from the press.
Even though at the time of the contest, and at no point since, has he looked to me as the person to win a general election for Labour. No, he isn’t useless. No, he’s not up to the challenge of the next election
The likelihood is that the conservatives will lose rather than labour "win". He provides a alternative for the voters who get fed up of the incumbent
hoping the remain brexit doomsday scenario plays out as you think it will
Who's hoping? Our Spar round the corner is routinely half empty, deliveries go straight onto the shelves. Morrisons isn't in good health either, stuff is quite often out of stock that just wasn't before.
Even the illiterate working class can see that.
"they are all bigots and racists"
https://newsthump.com/2021/03/17/britain-is-awful-you-people-are-scum-the-labour-lefts-new-slogan/
Meanwhile, in not made up news…
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-tells-23m-poverty-24844395
They won't cut it but the idea he might is a vote winner.
Nevertheless SKS should still attack Boj on this maybe ask Boris about his expenses. "You claimed £275 for food in Feb, but you want to cut U.C to... One rule for you..."
Yeah maybe it’s that, they are all bigots and racists.
Surely it can’t be more complicated than that?
It is more complicated than that. They are also selfish and have no empathy.
Go and speak to some tory voters and ask for the main reasons they vote tory. Come back and tell us what you find.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1431032794319360001?s=19
For me I was hopeful with JC in 2017. By 2019 I was so fed up with his dithering on Brexit and how he could not seem to make a decision on anything. He looked weak and unfit for PM. My hope was that Starmer would come in and hammer the Tories for their Brexit mess. So far he has failed. Part of me hopes he is playing the long game and will turn things around but I just don't know.
Hammering the less well off for ideological reasons, even though it’s economic folly…
Universal credit cut will ‘suck billions out of local economies’ from October
It is more complicated than that. They are also selfish and have no empathy.
So working-class voters are all bigots and racists and they are also selfish and have no empathy, which is why we have Tory governments.
Has your superior intellect kerley figured out why working-class voters weren't sufficiently bigoted, racist, selfish, and without empathy, to give the Tories a majority government in 2017?
But a mere 2 years later had become so racist, bigoted, racist, selfish, and without empathy, that they gave the Tories a thumping great majority?
As a working-class person it's all too complicated for me to figure out.
As a working-class person it’s all to complicated for me to figure out.
That's because as well as being [checks notes] racist bigoted, racist (again?) selfish and without empathy, you're also stupid...God, it's so tiresome having to explain this all the time.. 🙄 Oh, and you're foreign as well, aren't you?...How simply ghastly for you.
Anyway, Vote Labour 👍
So working-class voters…
No.
For over 4 years Labour MPs (and people in the Labour Party like binners) queued up to publicly denounce the Labour Party leader telling everyone how totally shit he was.
And then after he's finally gone, accuse working-class voters of being selfish bigoted racists with no empathy for not voting Labour and installing him as prime minister.
For over 4 years Labour MPs (and people in the Labour Party like binners) queued up to publicly denounce the Labour Party leader telling everyone how totally shit he was.
I’m still astonished why some are confused as to why labour are doing so badly. They spent years telling everyone not to vote for them, and even now the likes of Lisa Nandy never miss an opportunity to remind voters how shit labour were/are. And then they wonder why no one votes for them!
Are they really so naive and stupid to think that all it needed was a more respectable, less controversial leader and voters would come flooding back?
Yes, people kept telling “red Tories” to go and vote for the LibDems, or the Conservatives. Corbyn didn’t. And Starmer didn’t. Now think about who did.
Lisa Nandy never miss an opportunity to remind voters how shit labour were/are
Which is it? Is it Labour arrogantly telling the voters that it is they that got things wrong, Labour had everything right? Or is Labour signalling that they know they have to change after listening to what voters have to say about them? Deny past mistakes, or be prepared to accept and reflect criticism?
Are they really so naive and stupid to think that all it needed was a more respectable, less controversial leader and voters would come flooding back?
Again, I'll make the point that the Tories won by "installing" a different leader, and to use your words; the voters came flooding back... The Tories change when things don't go well for them, they just do it, and move on. Policies, Leadership whatever it takes.
Deny past mistakes, or be prepared to accept and reflect criticism?
Aside from there was no reflection but simply announcing that all was bad. Which then begs the question how are they going to retain those who did vote for them previously?
and to use your words; the voters came flooding back
Actually they didnt. The change in tory votes between 2017 and 2019 was far smaller than the number of votes May added. It was the drop in Labour vote and the perversity of the FPTP that gave the massive increase in seats.
I’ll make the point that the Tories won by “installing” a different leader,
So the previous leader wasn't racist enough? Otherwise Labour would have won?
One of the most astonishing things I learnt about Jeremy Corbyn from Labour politicians whilst he was Leader was that he is in fact a racist.
A "f****** racist" according to Labour MP Margaret Hodge.
Funnily enough the people who didn't vote for him are also racists.
It's all a bit confusing but I think the simplest solution is to accuse anyone who you don't agree with of being a racist, that should cover it.
Actually they didnt.
shut up with your facts while I'm have a moan 😁
I don’t think most working-class voters form their opinion of political parties from reading books.
For many they once saw the Labour Party as “their” party. Often the MPs they voted came from their industries. They now see no connection with Labour, it’s not their party anymore, it’s just another part of the establishment.
They are aware of the disdain that many middle-class liberals feel towards them, even if they don’t read the brexit thread on stw.
They know that they are “expected” to vote Labour no matter how useless the party and its leader might be.
Perhaps some of them are drawn to vote for another party which also isn’t theirs but doesn’t dismiss them as bigots and racists?
Who knows, eh?
Sums it up pretty well. The British people are used to being led, such is the deep historical entrenchment of the class system. Which is why the vast majority have little to no interest in politics. And why most don't bother to educate or inform themselves beyond what they need to be able to do their jobs and pay their bills. Such ignorance leads to fear, and the tories capitalise on that, by whipping up xenophobia and hatred. This is a far more powerful means of controlling people than simply offering proper democracy. Especially if you spin it as 'democracy = foreigners taking your jobs', and similar rhetoric.
The reason the Tories get in is a supportive press. That is all. Blair got Murdoch et al onside, he won
And there's the other part of it. Controlling the means of disseminating information. Murdoch had had enough of John Major, as he wasn't right wing enough, so used Tony Blair to continue the right wing neoliberal project as started by Thatcher and others. And now we're back to Starmer; he isn't going to challenge Johnson and the tories on their wealth, because he himself is a very wealthy man. And he knows not to bite the hand that is going to feed him ion the future, regardless of what happens in UK politics. Starmer has no vested interest in really opposing the tories, as he is actually part of the very establishment the tories want to maintain, and has power in the socio-economic system the tories want to perpetuate. In short, he's a tory really, but not as vociferous. Which is why votng Labour would be pretty much pointless right now, if you actually want to achieve political change.
But I'll ask the same question again: those who think Starmer is better than Corbyn as Labour leader; how do you think a Starmer led government would achieve the necessary changes to steer the UK back towards some semblance of a decent society with a functioning democracy? Please, I'd really like to hear your thoughts, because so far, we've had nothing on that score. If he's an establishment stooge, how is he going to turn things around?
