So your MP won his seat in 2017 because Theresa May was such
a badan unpopular Tory leader, and then lost it in 2019 presumably because Boris Johnson was such agreatpopular Tory leader?But somehow it was
allalso the fault of Jeremy Corbyn for being unpopular?
Of course, none of that means that Starmer will be popular with voters if he stays long enough to fight an election… he won’t be. Even if Johnson’s popularity does wane, it won’t be enough for him to lose the next election… Labour need to get everything right if they hope to defeat even a failing Tory Party, and that includes having a leader that can impress the country. Starmer is not that leader. Starmer is boring. Starmer can only be a stepping stone to Labour government, he will never be PM himself, he does not have what it takes to win.
There's some spectacular running around with the goalposts going on here.
That’s one way of looking at it
The other is the proper way of looking at it, as we’re using football analogies:
Elections are like football matches. You either win or you lose. Everything else is just academic because nobody cares about anything other than the 3 points
Listening to the Corbynites/lefties rattling on about voter turnout etc is like listening to Jose Mourhino in a post-match interview after his team has just been thumped.
Always banging on about being happy with the performance, having enjoyed more possession than the opposition, then blaming the referee
They ‘won the argument’, apparently
Well done!
You lost though, yeah?
Again
Listening to the Corbynites/lefties rattling on about voter turnout
It's you that was waffling on about low turnout and shit sandwiches.
And elections are nothing like football matches, they really aren't.
The fact that you seem to think they are betrays your tribal attitude towards politics. The political stance you personally adopt is all that matters, the rights and wrongs don't come into it.
Politics isn't a game. It is an economic struggle which affects every aspect of people's lives.
Politics isn’t a game
It’s still ultimately a win/lose scenario
Everything else is just white noise
‘Moral’ victories are just defeats, especially when you hand power to the very worst people in the world, then try to sell it as a triumph
Elections are like football matches. You either win or you lose.
I'm pretty certain that those aren't the only two possibilities for football matches. You need to work on a less shit analogy.
And while we're at it, Bury North was marginal long before you were frequenting Ramsbottom's organic delis. The idea that a Labour candidate lost because of Corbyn says much about your prejudices and ignorance of history.
Of course it isn't just a win or lose scenario, otherwise there would be no point in any political activity between general elections.
Politics isn't even vaguely like a football match.
You obviously think it's all just a big game though. And you have the cheek to castigate people for voting incorrectly!
Perhaps they are taking your attitude and dismissing it as nothing more than a game.
When they don’t they aren’t expressing a view.
Incorrect. They might be expressing the view that its not worth voting due to fptp or that they dont see any obvious difference between the parties.
After all the party which gets power routinely gets less than a majority of the vote so what does a few extra votes mean.
I do turn out to vote but honestly I do struggle to bother since I have only ever lived in uncontested constituencies where at best the primary contender is a pretty promising potential politician but not one who is promising enough they get dropped straight into a safe seat but need to wait an election cycle and try somewhere else first.
And if this doesn’t look like a Tory country not sure what does. (The blue bits are Tory by the way)
It shows we are a country with a rural/urban split. When you think about the issues associated with rural poverty, lack of access to services etc it's arguably a fundamental issue for labour that they can't make headway in any meaningful way.
My constituency is considerably poorer than Binner's which it borders yet has a long term conservative MP. The last two labour candidates have been Will Straw (eventually could find it on the map) and the council leader whose baggage includes a scheme that's lost £6million and counting. Not a single labour leaflet at the local elections, one of their councillors has now defected to the greens. It's not "Tory country", it's labour failing to engage and give the locals something they think is worth voting for.
By Tory country I mean that it has a Tory feel to it (Business biased, no empathy, selfishness etc,.) and that people are happy to either elect a tory party or stand by while a tory party is elected.
It's nothing to do with how people vote
I'm on holiday in N Devon, out for a walk with the kids we passed a older couple who had stopped to let us past on a narrow path, kids ahead had said thanks as I did, I was surprised when they remarked we were the first to say thanks all day, all I could say was thank you and that it's probably that we're from the North (Yr Hen Ogledd forever!!). It's statistically very unlikely that every previous walker had been a conservative voter. Unfortunately wherever you are people can be rude regardless of political sympathies. People can be focused on money (look at the retirement thread). But also people can be exceptionally generous and go out of their way to help strangers.
Some people lead small lives, some people are community focused, I would suggest that they vote for all parties to greater or lesser degrees. It doesn't make it a "Tory country", a relatively small voter swing sees the political map change dramatically.
The many issues Labour has includes the way it selects MP's (Jared O'Mara anyone?) generates policy, the lack of confidence that it will have more than one term that leads it to cramming the everything including the kitchen sink into a manifesto as well as muppets like Richard Burgon (you can also feel the votes disappearing every second he's on the telly).
When they don’t they aren’t expressing a view.
We are going round in circles but essentially if you're not a boomer voting is pretty pointless.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/11/britain-election-boomers/602680/
And while we’re at it, Bury North was marginal long before you were frequenting Ramsbottom’s organic delis. The idea that a Labour candidate lost because of Corbyn says much about your prejudices and ignorance of history.
I lived in the constituency in 2017 and 19, Frith in 17 was competing against a terrible sitting MP. Even the local councillor who canvased me in 2017 agreed. He had zero redeeming features unless you were a Brexit obsessive. For his two year's in the seat Frith never missed a photo opportunity, publicity opportunity, or opportunity to appear concerned. He had a significant local machine ably assisted by Binner's etc.
I agree Corbyn cost him his seat. That's despite the clear effort by Frith to never be pictured with him.
Incorrect. They might be expressing the view that its not worth voting due to fptp or that they dont see any obvious difference between the parties.
They might.
But since they chose not to record that on any sort of public ballot then we could also say they preferred to stay home and talk to their goat about metaphysics.
If you don't turn up to vote, you don't count. If you at least spoil your ballot that gets recorded.
Every. ****ing. Election.
Frith in 17 was competing against a terrible sitting MP. Even the local councillor who canvased me in 2017 agreed. He had zero redeeming features unless you were a Brexit obsessive.
So Firth in 2017 won because the Tory candidate had no redeeming features, unless you were a brexit obsessive, it had nothing to do with Corbyn, apparently.
And yet in binners own words in 2019 : "Labour MP James Frith who lost his seat to a useless Borisite, Brexiteer Tory"
And that, suprise surprise, was Corbyn's fault.
This is what I mean about running around with the goalposts. Like blue-arsed files.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere.
If you don’t turn up to vote, you don’t count. If you at least spoil your ballot that gets recorded.
Aside from spoiling your ballot means bugger all either. You might possibly amuse one of the volunteers counting them if you spoil it in an appropriate way or it might just mean you are one of the coloured crayon brigade who havent managed to keep the scribbles within a box yet.
The problem is every chance for intelligent reform of the voting system has been wasted.
The new labour idiots decided not to care and the lib dems were too incompetent.
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform? Not that the others he stood against have either since the 2019 loss, with the notable exception of Clive Lewis.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere
Corbyn went down like a cup of cold sick in ‘Red Wall’ constituencies no matter how deified he was in Islington. Mainly because he was so deified in Islington.
No matter who took over from the magic grandad, they had a bigger task on their hands than kinnock because of the total car crash he bequeathed them. He managed to finally sever the link between northern working class constituencies and a Labour leader who did ‘working class northerner’ as cosplay at the odd weekend where he’d attend a miners gala or something equally as ridiculous, cliched and patronising, before making sure he was on the first train back to London. Read Stuart Maconies ‘The Road to Jarrow’ to see this exposed for the sham that it was
Alongside Ivy and Selfridges regular Len McClusky who worked on the docks in Liverpool for half an hour before using union members fees to buy himself a nice flat in London and becoming a professional Scouser and voter-repellent
It baffles me how easily the left of the Labour Party slag off Blair and co while being so easily taken in by these highly remunerated charlatans and their laughable, retro 70’s ‘men of the people’ schtick
So Firth in 2017 won because the Tory candidate had no redeeming features, unless you were a brexit obsessive, it had nothing to do with Corbyn, apparently.
The former conservative MP had the "honour" of essentially initiating Brexit if you read Tim Shipman's All Out War. Locally he was a liability, complete non entity, and missing in action. By 2017 the constituency was voting for anyone else, Frith had a strong local party hitting the doorsteps hard.
Two years of no opportunity to support a local issue missed and he's out the door to a local councillor who was as shocked as anyone when he won
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform? Not that the others he stood against have either since the 2019 loss, with the notable exception of Clive Lewis.
Because few care about it, it doesn't win you votes. It's notable because he's daft enough to think it will get labour into power to deliver
David Nuttall was universally hated because as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again and would struggle to find his supposed constituency on a map. Much like the present journeyman Tory, James Daly.
I remember seeing him, pre-referendum, listed as the Tory most likely to defect to UKIP
An utter ****! As is his Tory replacement. Cheers for that Jezza
It baffles me how easily the left of the Labour Party slag off Blair and co while being so easily taken in by these highly remunerated charlatans and their laughable, retro ‘men of the people’ schtick
Is Starmer now a charlatan because he is paid the same as Corbyn was as LOTO?
People slag off Blair because of his policies. Iraq, Academies, shite PFI deals etc.
David Nuttall was universally hated as as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again
He wasn't sent to prison though, so still has that over Labour.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Where on earth have I pretended otherwise?? Corbyn without a shadow of a doubt was a liability for Labour in 2019, he certainly put me off supporting Labour.
He convinced me beyond all reasonable doubt that he would make a terrible prime minister, as he did also millions of other once loyal Labour voters.
However the situation in 2017, when against all the odds Labour increased its support massively by a third with an extra 3 million votes, was quite different, here Corbyn was clearly an asset.
Not because the bearded woke middle-class liberal cyclist appealed to voters, but because of the direction he took the Labour Party. We had yet to find out how totally useless he was.
In 2015-17 Corbyn energised Labour and British politics, I even canvassed for Labour in 2017. By 2019 I wouldn't even vote Labour.
Edit : To fair I was spared the dilemma of how to vote in 2019, something which I am extremely grateful for, as I didn't have the right to vote.
However the situation in 2017, when against all the odds Labour increased its support massively by a third with an extra 3 million votes, was quite different, here Corbyn was clearly an asset.
No silly, 2017 gains were despite Corbyn.
Not because the bearded woke middle-class liberal cyclist appealed to voters, but because of the direction he took the Labour Party. We had yet to find out how totally useless he was.
Agreed 100%. He got me voting Labour for the first time in 2017. As soon as I’d read the leaked version of the manifesto I was on board. By the time of the 2019 election he felt like the biggest obstacle to a Labour government (well, the second biggest, after the Brexit illusion). I still voted Labour, in part because I didn’t believe in the slightest that Labour could win outright, and a Labour led coalition government would be vastly preferable to a Johnson led one of any makeup.
By 2019 I wouldn’t even vote Labour.
Who did you vote for, and who’s now your MP?
Theresa suggested that the boomers may not be entitled to their triple-locked privilege.
There’s your 3 million votes
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
David Nuttall was universally hated because as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again and would struggle to find his supposed constituency on a map. Much like the present journeyman Tory, James Daly.
Which is tripe (apart from the hated bit), Nuttall Lived (still lives?) locally and was active in the church in Tottington. Daly is (controversial) a local councillor for many years. Nuttall may have been an import but he made the constituency home. Daly was always local.
Edit : To fair I was spared the dilemma of how to vote in 2019, something which I am extremely grateful for, as I didn’t have the right to vote.
Prison term?
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
You keep up your classy debating style binners, it's a sure way to win people over.
Who did you vote for, and who’s now your MP?
See my edit. I live in a very safe Tory seat but across the boarder not far from me is a Labour seat which was won in 2017, I helped on that campaign. It remained Labour in 2019.
Prison term?
Cheeky git.
I am an EU national who has never got round to applying for British nationality. Although I intend to soon especially .as the rules have changed and I can now do so through my mother's dual nationality.
So yeah, no legal right to vote. Although very grateful for your world famous British hospitality. Gawd bless yous.
Nuttall may have been an import but he made the constituency home.
As someone who works in the local charity sector informed me, Once Nuttall was down in Westminster he’d come back up here once every few months, have a whistle stop tour, photographer in tow, of local charities, shaking hands and kissing babies, then be on the next train back to Euston
He was a trustee of many local charities and they wouldn’t see him from one year to the next apart from his instant appearance at any event with the press present
They actually started giving his PA the wrong dates so he’d miss the press photographers and turn up 2 days later 😂
‘Two jobs’ Daly is just as invisible but still picking up his expenses as a councillor despite being an MP and so doing no council work. How very Tory.
.Theresa suggested that the boomers may not be entitled to their triple-locked privilege.
There’s your 3 million votes
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
You are wrong, statistics show you are wrong. Unless of course the under 25s were voting to keep their grandparents triple lock.
As someone who works in the local charity sector informed me, Once Nuttall was down in Westminster he’d come back up here once every few months, have a whistle stop tour, photographer in tow, of local charities, shaking hands and kissing babies, then be on the next train back to Euston
He was a trustee of many local charities and they wouldn’t see him from one year to the next apart from his instant appearance at any event with the press present
They actually started giving his PA the wrong dates so he’d miss the press photographers and turn up 2 days later 😂
‘Two jobs’ Daly is just as invisible but still picking up his expenses as a councillor despite being an MP and so doing no council work. How very Tory.
So anyway binners nevermind Paul Nuttall, or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter, what's your opinion of Starmer?
You haven't said much about him recently, despite posting prolifically for the last day or so on this Keir Starmer thread.
It's unusual for you to be shy when it comes to expressing an opinion of a Labour Party leader.
If it helps rone's post shows that in the latest opinion poll the Tories back on a double digit lead.
What is your opinion on whether or not he has an allotment?
Or are you waiting for someone to feel your bumps before committing yourself?
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform?
Even if he did he would soon lose interest if he managed to win an election under current system. The party in power (under the system that got them into power) is never going to propose/back reforming the way voting works as that would mean they would not get into power again.
So anyway binners nevermind Paul Nuttall, or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter, what’s your opinion of Starmer?
My opinion hasn’t changed since the last time you asked me. I’m incredibly disappointed in his failure to make any impact on this flailing corrupt government. Like many, I’m frustrated by the timid, Uber-cautious approach in failing to call Johnson and co out, and his total failure to articulate what the Labour Party is meant to stand for nowadays.
I unfortunately agree with Kelvin that he simply doesn’t have what it takes to win an election. I thought (or hoped) that this country might want somebody a bit more serious, sober and professional (read: dull), but it seems they still want a performing seal balancing a beach ball on his nose
A truly depressing thought
So you now agree he's useless, like many of us have been telling you for months. Do we get an apology for all the insults now?
I don’t think he’s useless, in the way that Corbyn was so clearly hopeless, so no apology.
And you lot give as good as you get on the insults, so dry your eyes eh, sweetheart?
I still think that there’s time to turn things around before an election. We’ve still got the real-time effects of Brexit to arrive yet, without Covid to hide behind. Christmas is going to be interesting
But he needs to start taking a far harder line and go on the offensive against this shower because at the moment he seems more like a commentator than a leader of the opposition. He’s let them off the hook for far too many epic **** ups when he should have gone for the jugular
And there is still the small matter of who you replace him with, if he goes now.
Because few care about it, it doesn’t win you votes.
Very few people cared about the EU prior to everyone getting excited about the referendum.
The lib dems obviously care about it and quite a few people who were voting for ukip etc noticed how little their votes mattered.
So a properly run campaign could get support although it would be fighting uphill against the press who like things the way they are
I don’t think he’s useless, in the way that Corbyn was so clearly hopeless, so no apology.
You just might think that after constantly ranting about how awful Corbyn was, and how any half decent leader would be annihilating the Tories, that when you realised how wrong you were you might show a little humility in this thread. How silly of me.
I’m incredibly disappointed in his failure to make any impact on this flailing corrupt government
I disagree binners. If you were "incredibly disappointed" by Starmer you wouldn't be simply posting such a downbeat sombre critique.
You would be posting a multitude of completely irrelevant comments such as his physical appearance or gardening capabilities, and using your gifted eloquence to spew out a tsunami of insults to illustrate how utterly useless he is.
You would be incandescent with rage at the Parliamentary Labour Party for meekly tolerating such a useless leader, probably insulting them by calling them an incompetent self-serving cult.
I think the truth is that you don't really have a problem with Starmer. Politics after all is just a game to you, so you tell us.
You know that he's totally useless so you are obviously not going to make any attempt to defend him. But on the other hand you are not going to go overboard in attacking him because frankly he's an embarrassment to you which you would rather ignore.
Hence your regular posting on this thread although almost never talking about Starmer. You use it to simply attack others.
.
You just might think that after constantly ranting about how awful Corbyn was, and how any half decent leader would be annihilating the Tories
And as I've repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile had produced, had the job from hell on their hands. Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had. Worst election defeat for 85 years, lest you forget. Cheers for that Jezza
*slow handclap*
You know that he’s totally useless so you are obviously not going to make any attempt to defend him
I've not said he's useless at all. you have, repeatedly, but I'm afraid you're putting words in my mouth there.
I've said that it's not too late to turn it around. We're a couple of years out from any election yet. We keep being told that at some point there will be detailed policy, so I live in hope that it delivers. The team around him need to step up too.
Theres also the question of how long the country is prepared to tolerate the present clown circus. We'll see how food shortages on the run up to Christmas play out with a country that was sold the Brexit colonial sunny uplands bullshit
