Forum menu
are you seriously suggesting that the Daily Mail isn’t 100% pro-Tory in it’s editorial policy?
No but I think its defining characteristic under Dacre was that it was socially conservative (small c) and that is a reasonably large market. Also people buy papers for lots a reasons, apparently the Femail section is popular as is the TV section.
And do you believe that News International switched from decades of supporting the Tories and backed New Labour because of pressure from Sun and Times readers, and not cosy little chats between Rupert Murdoch and Tony Blair?
I think their readership was ready for a change and Blair would have won without the support of the Sun. I am not saying the papers aren't without influence but I believe it is overstated and is generally used an excuse for failure.
I agree even less with your opinion on why there was intense hatred towards Jeremy Corbyn from the right-wing press.
There is always a danger of personal projection but I have never met anyone on the right who has bought your explanation. No one gave a toss about Corbyn until he become leader. he was one of the loony left, an irrelevance. But once he became Leader he was no longer an irrelevance and he was regarded as an order of magnitude worse that Michael Foot, who got monstered too. You will no doubt remember Michael Foot's speech following the invasion of the Falklands. Can you honestly imagine Corbyn contemplating making such a speech? I can't and I don't think any of the relevant newspaper editors could either. His domestic agenda hardly got a look in.
Yes, I was aware but was reminded by the thread.
There is always a danger of personal projection but I have never met anyone on the right who has bought your explanation.
And yet you don't seem to be really challenging my explanation. You have gone from claiming that the right-wing press hated Corbyn because of his views on NI to now apparently claiming that it was because he was such a hopeless politician......which obviously they should have been celebrating rather than seeking to replace him.
The truth is that they were faced for the first time in decades with a Labour Party leader who posed a real threat to the status quo. He wanted to turn the UK away from neo-liberalism and Thatcherism and towards social democracy - somewhere slightly to the right of Harold McMillan and Edward Heath.
I am not saying the papers aren’t without influence but I believe it is overstated and is generally used an excuse for failure.
I totally agree with that. It's the perennial excuse of some on the left for failure. As if it was ever any different!
And as you rightly point out it is very much overstated, eg, on the eve of the 2017 general election the Daily Mail had 13 pages, yes 13 pages, denouncing Corbyn, other right-wing newspapers might not have gone quite that far but they weren't that far behind.
That didn't stop Labour from increasing its share of the vote in 2017 by the greatest amount since the 1945 general election. It required a further 2 years of Corbyn being denounced by Labour MPs, not the Daily Mail, that resulted in the catastrophic result of the general election 2 years later.
I generally blame the left for the failures of the left, rather than voters and the Tories. It doesn't win me many friends among those who seem to hate Tories and voters in equal measure.
And yet you don’t seem to be really challenging my explanation.
Because it is irrelevant, we argued about it years ago but whatever our personal views the coverage is going to be influenced by what the journalists believed and I think the number who believed your explanation was incredibly small based on all the sarky comments by journalists, let alone RW journalists about Corbyn and Northern Ireland on Twitter. (I find Twitter is quite good at seeing what people really believe because they let their guards down. You also discover how dumb they are.)
You have gone from claiming that the right-wing press hated Corbyn because of his views on NI to now apparently claiming that it was because he was such a hopeless politician
Not at all, I was explaining the change in coverage and I raised the Falklands speech not because Corbyn wouldn't have the oratorical skill to make such a speech - few do - I don't think many can imagine him contemplating making such a hawkish speech, let alone making one. Can you?
but whatever our personal views the coverage is going to be influenced by what the journalists believed
Oh come off it! Do you seriously expect me to believe that journalists who work for right-wing Tory newspapers actually believed all the bollocks they wrote about Corbyn??? LOL!
Yeah let's agree to differ on that one! 😃
Maybe it was all personal grudges because they never got any of his legendary gooseberry jam?
Yeah let’s agree to differ on that one!
Yeah, agreed, although the explanations for Corbyn were met with similar levels of merriment on the right as far as I can see.
STW fiasco! Sort it out peeps.
I agree entirely.
For what it's worth I utterly despise political partisanship, it's self destructive and divisory.
Every political and social issue deserves it's own taylor made, and fair solution according to the circumstances. Solutions to some problems might be "X" and others "Y" but other letters are available.
I don't care if your lab/lib/con/mountain goat..
The truth is that they were faced for the first time in decades with a Labour Party leader who posed a real threat to the status quo. He wanted to turn the UK away from neo-liberalism and Thatcherism and towards social democracy – somewhere slightly to the right of Harold McMillan and Edward Heath.
It's a bit of a fallacy to think that the press or country were scared that Corbyn would suddenly create a social democracy in the UK if Labour had won in 2019, even if by some miracle Labour got in with a majority, they'd still struggle to bring in any real policy and make it stick, it just doesn't happen that way unfortunately, anywhere in the west.
He'd have been able to do some stuff, but then reality would have just gotten in the way, COVID, Brexit, Ukraine, etc, etc, there's just too many things going on to stay on a course, the tories know that just now because even with a majority, they're struggling to get stuff through.
The one thing that i had an issue with Corbyn was his lack of being a real threat, you just had to watch him in PMQs with Cameron to see he was easily out manoeuvred to look bad in the press, he got an easier ride with May, but then again she was probably just wondering how she ended up as PM!
For what it’s worth I utterly despise political partisanship, it’s self destructive and divisory.
Every political and social issue deserves it’s own taylor made, and fair solution according to the circumstances. Solutions to some problems might be “X” and others “Y” but other letters are available.
I don’t care if your lab/lib/con/mountain goat..
In which case there would no need for political parties.
Or maybe just one party.
One big all-bracing party.
Or PR
if Labour had won in 2019, even if by some miracle Labour got in with a majority
Miracle? It hardly needed a miracle - two years earlier Labour had robbed the Tories of their majority.
Going from no party with a majority to a Labour government with a majority isn't a huge seismic change that can only be triggered by some sort of unprecedented political miracle.
Unless of course you meant that it would have been some sort of miracle if Labour had won an election after years of Labour MPs publicly attacking the party leader, in which case I would agree a hundred percent with you.
Or PR
Why would anyone join a political party if no one felt that one party had the answers?
In which case there would no need for political parties.
Or maybe just one party.
One big all-bracing party.
Or, and this might sound totally crazy, a forum of all opinions and views equaly represented and balanced. Maybe some sort of parliament that can actually function...madness. MADNESS I TELL YOU!
No not madness at all imo - no political parties, just a forum of all opinions and views equally represented and balanced.
Sounds like a brilliant idea.
You just need to first establish a classless society without contradictory interests.
Also people are still talking about Corbyn? What ever for? he's literaly history..is he even still alive?
It's humiliating talking to eurpeans about the UK...like boris banging on about Churhill etc.. just get in the sea.
.
No, lol, let's not mention the C word 😉
I apologise, I've had a drink, and I despair.
Miracle? It hardly needed a miracle – two years earlier Labour had
robbed the Tories of their majoritylost a general election
FTFY
How can you say that the RW press is anything other than completely sane & normal
https://twitter.com/BelfastAgmt/status/1524145376126717953?t=7LXviRN4h3aCMFi7kJIM3Q&s=19
Christ! Is that real?! 😳
FTFY
Not for me you haven't, but maybe for yourself.
No one won the 2017 general election, something which you have repeatedly shown that you can't get your head round.
It's really not that difficult - to win a general election a party needs to win a majority of the seats. It's that simple.
I think this thread needs a quick reboot.
It’s really not that difficult – to win a general election a party needs to
win a majority of the seatsfind enough useful idiots to prop them up to form a government and then take power. It’s that simple
FTFY again
This is fun!
Your go…
😃
Saw this, could it be true?
https://twitter.com/Trickyjabs/status/1524149360296091649?s=20&t=dzHdSQEJ_eQjO5a5S5sSaQ
Find enough idiots to prop them up
Ah, we're back to vilifying voters.
Oh you and your winning ways binners.
With people like you in the party calling voters idiots it's surprising that Labour aren't making much electoral progress.
I wasn’t vilifying voters, I was stating a truism about the DUP. Something they’re continuing to prove even today, as they demonstrate yet again that they really are the village idiots of UK politics. And that’s quite some boast over the last 6 years
Come on, comrade.
You’re better than this
UK government is a bit like this at the moment...
Boris is definitely Jay!
Well, he did accuse little old Elsie, who was just trying to keep warm, of being a bus****er earlier this wek!
My apologies binners, it's sometimes hard to keep up with who you are vilifying and calling idiots.....the Tories, the Left, voters in general, the punters down the Rose and Crown in Ramsbottom.
Apparently the idiots this time were DUP. Not a usual target of your insults so I didn't initially clock on.
I’m all about the equal opportunities comrade. Almost Corbynesque in my inclusivity.
Everyone is fair game and equally deserving of my contempt. 😃
The DUP are hillarious, they want to maintain the UK, despite brexit and being Irish...
...it's almost like a paradox that everyone saw coming.
Cake and eat it? anyone? How much did the conservatives pay them to shut up, I don't reacall?
They are probably just sniffing for a cash injection from a London that couldn't care less.
Talking of peoples open contempt for morons, Theresa May gave the inbred half-wits of the DUP a reminder today that they voted against her Brexit bill that would have prevented the border in the Irish Sea but voted for Johnson’s deal which created one
As thick as a Boxing Day turd, the lot of them
https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1524065734132965378?s=21&t=M-2EqsLKpjkwcwvRY6tCFQ
This is probably a more accurate summination
https://twitter.com/jibbajabb/status/1524059349370515457?s=21&t=M-2EqsLKpjkwcwvRY6tCFQ
Christ, the halcyon days of Theresa May... if we knew now what would we could have known then, etc.
Also the halcyon days of David Cameron...he's gone a bit quiet, has he oursourced himself to the caymans?
Big difference between the two ex-PMs and their lives after no10… one has shown themselve to be a dedicated public servant working for their constituency and country (who I disagree with politically), the other has been exposed to have always been working for themselves and their donors (who doesn’t really have any politics beyond progressing their own self interest).
If anyone’s interested, the full Aaron Bastani interview with Oliver Eagleton is on
Novara Media
If anyone’s interested, the full Aaron Bastani interview with Oliver Eagleton is on
Novara Media
Christ, if i wanted to spend 1 hour 20 minutes listening to Corbynists slating Keir Starmer i'd give DazH a call 😂
Yeah actual analysis of locals here
https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1524021555847745537?t=Bmxh4Z0GuPaKQps6lBSIjA&s=19
Christ, if i wanted to spend 1 hour 20 minutes listening to Corbynists slating Keir Starmer i’d give DazH a call
Just log on to this lefty moanfest thread and check up on the usual suspects
In my head, I can see them all getting together to plan the revolution and they look like this...
0" alt="" />
..but less smiley, more grumpy. Definitely in black and white though 😀
Yeah actual analysis of locals here
Goodness, even Starmer backing Prospect admits that despite everything in Labour's favour "the results still point to a hung parliament," which as we know from binners is simply not good enough.
Last Thursday Labour received exactly the same share of the vote as it had done 4 years previously in the same seats - 35%
The Tory share of the vote fell 5% to 30%
And the LibDem share of the vote increased 3% to 19%
The party which saw the most significant increase in support was the Greens, who presumably benefited from people who couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Labour Party barely distinguishable from the Tories.
in my head, I can see them all getting together to plan the revolution and they look like this…
Here's a current story of low paid workers that you can ridicule and poke fun at binners :
Enjoy.
who presumably benefited from people
I think they took seats from both Tories and Labour in just about equal numbers. Even forced some deeply Tory Oxford councils into NOC They also did very well in contested local elections were established contenders were opposing LTNs - be they labour or Tory.
People are becoming more environmentally aware, I don't think voting for the Green party is protest vote any longer
In my head, I can see them all getting together to plan the revolution and they look like this…
Enjoy the current alternative then.
Effing Gove going on about cutting all the taxes all the time. (Despite the recent tax hike!) Jesus they've got one script - that they're the party of always cutting taxes!
Cutting taxes will only go so far irrespective. Tories running out of road. Implode soon please.
The only way to get the economoy going is massive government spending - the current Tories are boosting the chances of a deeper dark recession then last time. Commercial bank lending will drop off a cliff, business will go under, interest rates will rise and they think they can kick start the economy?
This- THIS is the real issue now.
“the results still point to a hung parliament,” which as we know from binners is simply not good enough.
Au contraire comrade. I've said consistently that any non-tory government will have to be a coalition. Thats been the case since the inevitable rise of the SNP. The sooner all the parties recognise this and embrace it, the sooner we can get shut of this lot.
At the recent local elections here, the Lib Dems put a 'paper candidate' up. They didn't campaign at all, but knew that they would take votes off the Tory party from people who normally voted Tory, are appalled by Boris, but can't/won't vote Labour
It worked. We now have 3 Labour councillors.
I hope that the national parties start cooperating in the same manner, otherwise we'll have permanent Tory rule
otherwise we’ll have permanent Tory rule
It took 18 years to get the previous Tories out. You don't assume that despite their dominance we will be under Tory rule forever - if Labour decided to push back and offer an alternative - or yes it's permanent right wing rule.
It worked.
Labour's share of the vote in the local elections last Thursday was exactly the same as it was 4 years ago in the same seats.
So your measure of success binners is doing as well as under the previous leadership.
The only way to get the economoy going is massive government spending – the current Tories are boosting the chances of a deeper dark recession then last time. Commercial bank lending will drop off a cliff, business will go under, interest rates will rise and they think they can kick start the economy?
This- THIS is the real issue now.
Couldn't agree more. Take the latest bullshit announcement about building a nuclear power station every year. Utter cobblers that will never happen. What they were actually saying was "if anyone should fancy designing, financing and then building about ten nuclear power stations, that would be great, thanks"
They have absolutely no intention of doing a bloody thing about anything. They just leave everything to 'The Market' and cross their fingers and hope something magically happens. To actually intervene with some state involvement and investment and planning goes against every outdated, intellectually bankrupt principle they hold dear
God knows what state this country will be in in twleve months time as the only levers this lot are interested in pulling is just deregulation and privatisation
So your measure of success binners is doing as well as under the previous leadership.
Again... this isn't specifically about Labour. The days of parliamentary majorities for the Labour party are over. This is about all other parties cooperating to take seats off the Tory's and forming a non-Tory coalition government
That is the only realistic ambition
The Tory's lost 500 council seats, didn't they? Then thats all that matters, unless its UKIP taking them, which it isn't
this isn’t specifically about Labour.
Ah just as well....... it's great news for Starmer that the Greens and LibDems did well!
You didn't set the bar so low for the previous Labour leader!
the only levers this lot are interested in pulling is just deregulation and privatisation
Unlike Starmer's 10 pledges which voters don't seem to know about.
Christ, if i wanted to spend 1 hour 20 minutes listening to Corbynists slating Keir Starmer i’d give DazH a call
You'd probably be disappointed, as binners and nickc can testify my real life self is far more sensible and chilled out than the bored-at-work online version. 😏
I'm constantly disappointed by the lack of petrol bombs
I’ve said consistently that any non-tory government will have to be a coalition.
I also want to repeat this. Has been true for years. Will be true for many more years, at least. Will keep saying it. It doesn't stop being true because Starmer is leader. It won't stop being true after he is leader. We're decades away from a majority Labour government... and it may never happen if other parties push a minority Labour government towards electoral reform.
The Tory’s lost 500 council seats, didn’t they?
Exactly. And we need them to lose seats in parliament as well. In our system, that isn't just about weighing the vote across the country, it's about where those votes are cast, and how the non-Tory vote is (or isn't) split.
Au contraire comrade. I’ve said consistently that any non-tory government will have to be a coalition.
So you don't think that Labour should be twenty points ahead?
So you don’t think that Labour should be twenty points ahead?
Nah, a 1% lead over the Tories is just fine now:
So you don’t think that Labour should be twenty points ahead?
PMSL - that centrist spin-ball.
Starmer is the answer!
You vile spitting image puppet.
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1524311949118521344?s=20&t=cqjHCKGDrL85vZyPwRQcdQ
I have friends that voted for these.
It took 18 years to get the previous Tories out. You don’t assume that despite their dominance we will be under Tory rule forever
In 1997 Labour won 56 seats in Scotland. Do you see the problem with your statement...
Labour’s share of the vote in the local elections last Thursday was exactly the same as it was 4 years ago in the same seats.
So your measure of success binners is doing as well as under the previous leadership.
only really a point if you ignore 2019
You vile spitting image puppet.
Quite amusing though watching his leadership prospects go up in smoke with one coke-fuelled interview. It's no wonder they've been keeping him away from the limelight.
Looks like he pushed on through from last night
coke-fuelled interview
That was my very first thought.
only really a point if you ignore 2019
Which of course you should do because 2019 was a different election in different seats.
It is generally accepted that you make a comparison with a previous election in the same seats, not a different election in different seats.
Gove has always fancied himself as a stand up. Was it David Baddiel he made a TV sketch show pilot with?
More than a pilot... a whole series...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stab_in_the_Dark_(TV_series)
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/a-stab-in-the-dark
https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/748842304350384128?s=20&t=I2xFvdde_oTetdIwr20BUw
Just watched that Gove interview. That must’ve been quite a long line he did before coming on the air
That must’ve been quite a long line he did before coming on the air
First saw it in some random tweet and was really unsure whether it was fake or not.
In 1997 Labour won 56 seats in Scotland. Do you see the problem with your statement…
Well I wasn't predicting anything really. Things can change quickly even if the gestation period can seem to go on forever.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1523984310017171456?t=kc7XJTOT4x-4pqRvPRBZbA&s=19
Be interesting to see how this pans out later with Starmer's resign position.
Currently don't think it will swing it.
Think Labour have lost their steam whilst Johnson is doing deep pocket War walks.
That poll changes daily
Westminster Voting Intention:
LAB: 39% (-2)
CON: 34% (-1)
LDM: 11% (+2)
SNP: 4% (=)
GRN: 3% (-1)
Via
@SavantaComRes
, 6-8 May.
Changes w/ 29 Apr - 1 May.
According to the swingometer calculation if the latest YouGov findings of a 1% Labour lead were repeated in a general election the Tories would actually end up with 11 more seats than Labour.
Although to be fair since the YouGov poll there has been a Savanta ComRes poll which gives Labour a 5% lead and a Redfield & Wilton Strategies poll which gives Labour a 6% lead.
Whatever else they claim all these polls have one thing in common - they all predict that Labour wouldn't win a general election and the result would be a hung parliament.
Which at least one person on here seems to think would be a fantastic result for Labour. Bizarrely he is the same person who previously claimed that Labour needed to have a 20 point lead over the Tories before it could claim to be doing well.
Edit : The other obvious point all the polls make is that the current Opposition is spectacularly useless. Could there be more open goals handed on a plate for them to fail to exploit?
Which at least one person on here seems to think would be a fantastic result for Labour.
Fantastic? Or the best result likely at the next general election? And a better result than the Conservatives having the most seats, yet again. If Labour can be the biggest party in parliament within a few years, I will absolutely cheer that. I don’t think Starmer is the person to achieve that though.
[ this thread is just looping again, can someone do a hard reset please ]
The other obvious point all the polls make is that the current Opposition is spectacularly useless. Could there be more open goals handed on a plate for them to fail to exploit?
I think that would be my take-away. Can you imagine if the Tories were actually good at anything?
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1524717272136310787?s=20&t=S-zSQY-sueKseeD__jKZig
Because the kind of complacent, sanctimonious, reactionary, left-wing idiots who like lobbing around terms like ‘Tory-lite’ just led the Labour Party to its worst election result in 85 years.
You can't on the one hand call people that push back against the Tories 'left-wing-idiots' and enter a thread in support of Labour.
None of what you say makes sense here.
Would a Labour government do a better job running the country than the current government?
Interesting stat there is just how sticky the idea of Labour being a worse potential government is with the 2019 Conservative voters. Which fits in with the pattern of other polls, showing that when people say they wouldn't vote Conservative again if there was another election now... very few say they would vote Labour instead. Conservatives losing votes doesn't mean those voters move over to Labour. Blame whoever you want for that, but, at this point at least, it is a thing, and opposition parties need to respond to it, not ignore it, when it comes to taking seats of the Conservatives at the next election.
Well said - but this is down to Labour to fix, or make a better case to the electorate at least.
As stated before, polls are a bit pointless just now, there is nothing to gauge against, they’re asking a hypothetical question which only one party has actually done, for all the moaning about government, only the tories have done it in the last decade, and it’s boris who is shaking hands with world leaders and in the news daily for it.
Or the other alternative is that it’s all Starmers fault for not being left wing enough