I think the curry industry should be asking why they can't train enough chefs in the UK.....
Anyway back on topic the coverage of Starmers trip to Blackpool is interesting. He has a mountain to climb and no Sherpas. Labour's collapse could continue.... Which is a bad thing, they need to get a grip.
asking why they can’t train enough chefs in the UK…
Same as any other specialist… training in one place, and eventually working in another, is entirely normal and advantageous for all. I don’t expect my ophthalmologist to be trained in Mytholmroyd, they probably qualified in Birmingham. Some specialist training and experience might be obtained further afield than even Birmingham. Specialist chefs coming from abroad doesn’t seem that odd, does it?
Starmer’s little BBC interview was painful. All those questions about kicking Corbyn out. Imagine Johnson being asked about why May still has the whip? Odd.
I think the curry industry should be asking why they can’t train enough chefs in the UK…..
Because they only want to pay minimum wage or as near as, which even supposing a 40 hour week, would fall somewhat short of the £35k pa minimum the government requires migrant workers from places outside the EU to earn. Pretty much the story across many sectors; Brexit means a shortage of cheap labour, and many sectors rely on such cheap labour to be able to survive. But wasn't it literally Starmer's job to address Brexit concerns, under Corbyn? I don't remember him doing much at all, if anything. Perhaps if he'd actually bothered to do the job he'd been appointed to, instead of just sitting there like a piece of wet lettuce, he'd have half a clue as to how to move forward and win back voters...
would fall somewhat short of the £35k pa minimum the government requires migrant workers from places outside the EU to earn
Of course, there are all the additional costs imposed on employers for the audacity of employing a chef from another country. Equivalent to a £40K+ wage (not that the worker will see all that). None of which is relevant if there aren't enough experienced chefs in the country to fill the posts no matter what you pay.
Well, perhaps we can eat some good old fashioned proper British grub instead, like...
Anything microwavable will be fine. Who needs Chefs? Or seasonal farm workers? Or nurses?
Anyway, Starmer didn't do well today. Kuenssberg totally skewered him in the clips the BBC are playing. He's undeniably in a shit position not entirely of his own making, but he doesn't have what it takes to handle it. Does he.
All those questions about kicking Corbyn out.
Entirely of Starmer's own making.
People still claiming there's no purge on the left might want to take a look at the latest Guardian.
To save others searching:
Thanks I couldn't get the link to work on my phone for some reason.
All the papers are covering it. It is after all big news......"Keir Starmer does something".
Or at least he's thinking about doing something. And he'll probably do something.
Obviously what voters want is for Starmer to set out a clear alternative to the Tories. The problem with that is that it makes him vulnerable to criticism from the Tories and the press.
The great thing about expelling members of your own party is that everyone can see Starmer doing something but there is no risk of him being criticised by either the Tories or the press.
I am not convinced people are not voting for Labour because they have concerns over Labour members being part of Socialist Appeal. I am probably more interested in politics than most voters and I had never even heard of that group!
Y'know it's only really this thread reminding me that Keir exists.
Same as any other specialist… training in one place, and eventually working in another, is entirely normal and advantageous for all. I don’t expect my ophthalmologist to be trained in Mytholmroyd, they probably qualified in Birmingham. Some specialist training and experience might be obtained further afield than even Birmingham. Specialist chefs coming from abroad doesn’t seem that odd, does it?
Jeezo that's a bit of a stretch. And yes it does seem odd they're trained overseas and not, as per you example actually just Halifax, it's making a curry, not a Hadron Collider. And the eye doctor also from just down the road in Bradford.
just Halifax, it’s making a curry, not a Hadron Collider. And the eye doctor also from just down the road in Bradford.
Who was it that kept posting about a free and independent Yorkshire in the Brexit thread? Perhaps they were right. We should fine employers that recruit from outside Yorkshire, and stop those outside staff from bringing their families here, or using the NHS without charge.
I am not convinced people are not voting for Labour because they have concerns over Labour members being part of Socialist Appeal. I am probably more interested in politics than most voters and I had never even heard of that group!
Are they not the rump of Militant? [ insert Monty Python ‘splitters’ img ]
All those groups listed in that Guardian piece (well the ones I’ve heard of) are led by the kind of people that most people “on the left” wouldn’t want to be associated with, and many clearly want another party to come about not to support Labour (eg. Williamson’s Crisis). Letting people be members of Labour and Crisis, but not, for example, Labour and the Green Party, makes no sense.
Who was it that kept posting about a free and independent Yorkshire in the Brexit thread? Perhaps they were right. We should fine employers that recruit from outside Yorkshire, and stop those outside staff from bringing their families here, or using the NHS without charge
I'm sure this is referencing something somewhere but to me that's just illegible word soup.
Wheres this "fine them" come from? Observing that educational facilities exist in the UK is not some code for "stop them using the NHS the bunch of freeloaders" so where did that come from too? It's not even code for stop anyone coming in at all.
I'm going to hazard a guess I'm only ankle deep in this topic and your balls deep so I'm missing whatever it is your talking about.
I'm also outside a service station waiting for this coffee to do its business. Could be a bit angsty whilst the core kicks into life ....
I’ll come back after we’ve both had at least two coffees.
Okay... I've had one... I'll give it go...
Wheres this “fine them” come from?
The "Immigration Skills Charge"... it's paid each year (with a bigger up front payment) as penalty for employing someone from outside the UK. There's also the "Certificate of Sponsorship" costs per an employee, and also you have to pay to become a sponsor (but that's per an organisation, not per an employee... but does make that first foreign worker the most expensive to take on).
not some code for “stop them using the NHS the bunch of freeloaders”
Not from you, no. Just pointing out the hurdles that we have deliberately put in place to to put off people from outside the UK coming here to work (this one is the "Immigration Health Surcharge")... you might call it a hostile environment. I was jokingly (although it's not funny really I'll admit) applying that to Yorkshire rather than the UK.
Look, it's great if people can be trained and employed locally... if that's what they want. On the Curry Chefs front, there have been lots of great initiatives to train in the UK. There was a tendency for the courses to be filled with EU people though (no, not taking training away from good old hard working Brits, but because that's who wanted the training). It'll be interesting to see who is taking up the training from now on.
This supposedly intelligent man cannot see his direction of travel, each time he takes it to the left.
At some point there will be no difference between Labour and the Tories other than a slightly more clappy NHS attitude.
But that will be it.
In fact there will be almost nothing to talk about soon. Starmer; sub-contractor of the Tories.
Thank you Kelvin appreciated
In all honesty I've just buried an old friend lost to Pancreatic Cancer so I'm going for a walk in the Lakes (well Wet Sleddale) and take a few weeks off the forum. I'm not sure I have room for politics, pandemics, and grief all in one go.
Be outside. Take care.
This supposedly intelligent man cannot see his direction of travel, each time he takes it to the left.
Which of the groups listed in that Guardian piece are in the "direction of travel"? Really interested to hear which of them represents to you the direction Labour should be heading in.
In fact there will be almost nothing to talk about soon.
Starmer is boring. Who'd want to talk about him? He's making Labour boring. At least he's making it easier for his successor to get attention when the time comes (clutching for straws and silver linings there, I'll admit).
I still wish he was PM. And still consider him utterly unsuitable to winning elections.
All those groups listed in that Guardian piece (well the ones I’ve heard of) are led by the kind of people that most people “on the left” wouldn’t want to be associated with
Such utter ignorance. You have no idea about 'the kind of people' in any of those organisations. I doubt you've even heard of them, or the myriad other small political organisations affiliated to Labour. They are by and large, middle class bleeding heart liberals, truth be told, in many small groups. The few actual 'Marxists' are mostly older Labour members, who have absolutely no power or influence in the party anyway. Labour Against The Witchhunt actually numbers quite a few Jewish people, so once again, Starmer will be expelling the 'wrong sort of Jews' again. This is totally about removing any form of dissent or alternative opinions, and dismantling any form of democracy within the party. At a time when Labour are still hemorrhaging members, support and potential voters, Starmer's best move is to expel and alienate even more members? Way to go.
Starmer; sub-contractor of the Tories
He really is nothing more, now. A corporate stooge, acting in the interests of wealth. This much is clear.
I still wish he was PM
If he were, how do you think he'd affect any significant and necessary change in our society?
Brexit means a shortage of cheap labour, and many sectors rely on such cheap labour to be able to survive.
So pay for workers in some low paid sectors is going to increase....
So pay for workers in some low paid sectors is going to increase….
Is it? How?
He's sweating blood to create Change UK Mk 2.
I was just looking into who is involved in groups like Labour Against the Witch Hunt, and I saw Jackie Walker is involved - I was pretty sure I remembered she had been found guilty of some pretty clear cut egregious anti-semitism. Sure enough there are references to her arguing that 'jews financed the slave trade' among other things, but then if you dig a little you find out:
'In the course of a complex and nuanced Facebook conversation Jackie Walker declared, ‘I will never back anti-Semitism but neither am I a Zionist’. The friends spoke about her combined Jewish-African heritage, the suffering involved in the slavery movement, and ‘the Holocaust’ as a debt owed to the Jews, to which Jackie responded:
I hope you feel the same towards the African holocaust? My ancestors were involved in both – on all sides… millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues to this day on a global scale in a way it doesn’t for Jews and many Jews, my ancestors too, were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade… so who are the victims and what does it mean . We are victims and perpetrators, to some extent by choice. And having been a victim does not give you a right to be a perpetrator.'
Weird how the fact that she herself is Jewish never seems to get mentioned eh?
And this was from a private conversation from which someone took a screenshot. And this is really enough to brand someone a racist and kick them out of their political party? What is even wrong about what she has said? The fact that Starmer is still hounding people like Jackie Walker just shows he is on the side of the oppressors, frankly.
This is totally about removing any form of dissent or alternative opinions, and dismantling any form of democracy within the party. At a time when Labour are still hemorrhaging members, support and potential voters, Starmer’s best move is to expel and alienate even more members? Way to go.
The labour party policy making structures make it essential. If you have a mass membership organisation where single interest pressure groups can wield extraordinary influence on what is the ultimate party policy then you have a recipe for opposition. Labour needs to appeal to voters, (unless it can get to 17 million members). What appeals to voters is different than what appeals to highly motivated people who join political parties.
Is it? How?
I'm sure you will have a complex reason why I'm wrong but when something in demand is in short supply normally the price goes up
If you have a mass membership organisation where single interest pressure groups can wield extraordinary influence on what is the ultimate party policy then you have a recipe for opposition
Please explain what 'influence' groups such as LatW, Socialist Appeal, Resist and Labour in Exile actually have, towards the greater membership? And isn't debate vital in establishing democracy anyway?
I’m sure you will have a complex reason why I’m wrong
It's not very complex at all. You just haven't thought it through very much, that's all.
when something in demand is in short supply normally the price goes up
Oh the goods themselves will, no question. But wages won't. Because there are too many people who have to take whatever they can get, in order to survive. Because the 'safety net' has ever growing holes...
Starmer is boring. Who’d want to talk about him? He’s making Labour boring. At least he’s making it easier for his successor to get attention when the time comes (clutching for straws and silver linings there, I’ll admit).
The problem is who can replace him that will be able to turn the corner for Labour as a viable opposition/ government
I still wish he was PM. And still consider him utterly unsuitable to winning elections.
Probably Starmer's curse, competent enough to do the job well, not competent enough to get it
All those groups listed in that Guardian piece (well the ones I’ve heard of) are led by the kind of people that most people “on the left” wouldn’t want to be associated with, and many clearly want another party to come about not to support Labour (eg. Williamson’s Crisis). Letting people be members of Labour and Crisis, but not, for example, Labour and the Green Party, makes no sense.
What makes no sense is to make a big song and dance about fighting your own membership. The groups listed hold very little if any power and could easily be ignored whilst Starmer focuses his energies on developing a viable opposition. The scary thing is that he might actually believe this action will improve Labour's fortunes.
Going by the polls down to (33/42) it seems that Keith is not really appealing to the voters. Plus he's been outflanked by the Tories over NHS pay, deary me. I'd be interested in any examples of single issue interest groups wielding extraordinary power over party policy as I might like to have a go at that.
Dismissing 52% of the population as you do says a lot more about you than that 52%
I'm a hang-wringing leftie woke snowflake and proud of it.
Starmer will continue to lag in the polls while we open up... freedom daaaay!!!
Depending on how next few months go re. covid he could get a boost or continue to lag
3years before the next election so plenty of time yet,
You have no idea about ‘the kind of people’ in any of those organisations.
I said "led by". I don't know who makes up their membership, I can only go by who set them up and puts their names to them.
The problem is who can replace him that will be able to turn the corner for Labour as a viable opposition/ government
THE big question.
I’m a hang-wringing leftie woke snowflake and proud of it.
You missed out snob
I said “led by”. I don’t know who makes up their membership, I can only go by who set them up and puts their names to them.
Again; you know nothing about them.
If you say so darling. Damn my empty head.
What makes no sense is to make a big song and dance about fighting your own membership.
Makes no sense to me either. But then I voted Labour twice at general elections with Corbyn as leader, I don't need or want to see any signalling that the party is ridding itself of anyone. I suppose groups set up and led by people already expelled from Labour (hell, some were also expelled from Militant back in the day... imagine that) might well not have a place in Labour. Sorting that out quietly would be preferable... if possible. Is it possible?
You could fill it with knowledge. It wouldn't take much effort, by all accounts...
Enough about me and my empty head. I'd like to see Labour relax rather than tighten its rules on joining and supporting other parties and movements more generally. I don't think the future is "Labour or not"... if there's to be any government without Conservatives in it any time soon. But Labour members being able to join and support those groups listed in that Guardian article, some set up by disgruntled ex-Labour people, yet risk being expelled for supporting candidates and campaigns linked to The Green Party and others, makes no sense at all to me.
Not really gonna comment on whether certain campaign groups should be expelled as it's of almost no interest to anyone, but what I would say is that at a time when much of the country is crying out for some competent opposition and some sign of what Starmer stands for, and after promising that they would stop navel gazing, what does he choose to do? It tells us everything we need to know about his priorities and his fitness to be leader. He's there to do nothing more than fight an internal factional war, and that's why he's tanking in the polls.
This is for binners, he’ll know what I mean 😀
https://twitter.com/elenicourea/status/1417060689827569666?s=21
Where’s Emily Thornberry when you need her? 😂
We almost broke out rule of not discussing politics on Saturday night. However, since we were only discussing fictional politics, it’s ok
