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No way should Keir resign, regardless of the outcome, until Johnson does first.
That times article states 6 to 8 weeks to investigate 😯
Perfect window to get all the Met stuff out, while everyone's looking the other way.
I'm sure there will be another scandal to fill the void until then. Hopefully bozo getting a few more fines and some photos of him doing the conga.
Over to you Johnson
He's gambling that the tories don't have influence over the Chief Constable of Durham police, or if they do that they won't use it. That's quite a risk, and I'm not sure it's going to pay off.
The alternative is that a backroom deal has been done with the tories for a non-aggression pact on partygate. They'll influence the cops not to give him a FPN, and in return he'll stop pushing the partygate issue.
The alternative is that a backroom deal has been done with the tories for a non-aggression pact on partygate. They’ll influence the cops not to give him a FPN, and in return he’ll stop pushing the partygate issue.
thats certainly a theory ?!!?! but its nonsense
I think hes just certain that
A) hes done nothing wrong and that
B) as a lawyer & LOTO, hes gotta stick by the rules
I think he's messed it up already. too much dilly-dallying, even if now he says he'll resign people (tories) will say he is playing politics. He should have come out immediately and said it, rather thna have it leaked to the press.
You’d think so, but I bet there’s quite a bit of panic among the labour right wing right now. A leadership election will derail their ongoing project to purge the party of the last remnants of the left.
Honestly, what the hell does this statement even mean, Labour now have a right wing element that hell bent on removing all leftist thought, it's about as believable as those loveable Russians being oppressed and downtrodden by that nasty NATO.
I think hes just certain that
A) hes done nothing wrong and that
B) as a lawyer & LOTO, hes gotta stick by the rules
Like I said, he's gambling that the tories won't influence the investigation. That's a massive gamble considering there will be almost no way of him challenging the outcome. Boris will be sitting in his office wondering whether to pick up the phone and offer the CC of Durham a knighthood or peerage.
He’s gambling that the tories don’t have influence over the Chief Constable of Durham police, or if they do that they won’t use it. That’s quite a risk, and I’m not sure it’s going to pay off.
Irrelevant... it's a fixed penalty, if he is issued one, and the local police are corrupt, or simply just incorrect, he can appeal and take it to court for a proper hearing just like anyone else, unless your're saying the judicary has been bought by the tories too? in which case we're all in a lot more trouble than we thought.
I'm sure he knows this as he's an ex lawyer?
he can appeal and take it to court for a proper hearing just like anyone else
In theory he can challenge it but politically he'll be finished anyway. He's put his entire leadership in the hands of people who answer to a government which has already shown many times that it's willing to throw out the normal rules and do whatever is necessary to gain advantage. He's far more trusting of the police and the tories than most other people would be.
Let's be reasonable... there is no way could take it to court politically... that he would every legal right to is pretty much irrelevant in his position.
TBH if Johnson was going to influence the decision he'll more thank likely want Starmer to remain given the dire election results and complete lack of personality, vision and competence.
IF starmer pulls it off & gets no fine
It will make him look even better
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1523603648479371265
want Starmer to remain
You think he cares who is opposition leader? He just wants to keep his own title. And that's all this April 30th 2021 nonsense is about. Saving Johnson. Lots of Tory MPs were saying that they were waiting 'till after the local elections to decide whether to move on Johnson... so this has dominated the political and media chatter from the moment the bad results started coming in. People are barely talking about the results now, and having neutered that line, many MPs will be put back in their boxes. That this also provides cover for the Met to issue more of their fines is a glorious bonus for Johnson and his team. It couldn't be going better right now.
Daily Mail 3 : Labour 0
Daily Mail 3 : Labour 0
og Starmer,
og Starmer,
og Starmer
FTFY.
I might be being a bit thick here but I thought the reason BJ should resign over this wasn't the parties themselves but because he lied in Parliament about it.
The fixed penalties are just a fairly minor misdemeanour, but lying to Parliament is a breach of the ministerial code which in normal times results in a resignation.
AFAIK, Starmer has never denied the incident in Parliament, so why should he resign?
I think he’s messed it up already. too much dilly-dallying, even if now he says he’ll resign people (tories) will say he is playing politics. He should have come out immediately and said it, rather thna have it leaked to the press.
Absolutely this. Being a senior politician requires the individual to make quick, firm, and decisive decisions, to changing situations. I would expect it from a prime minister so no less so from a prime minister in waiting.
As soon as the police announced that they were going to reinvestigate the allegations Starmer should have publicly announced both his confidence in the police and that even if he had unwittingly broken the Covid restrictions and received a fixed penalty notice that he would resign.
Starmer has consistently and repeatedly insisted that Johnson and the Chancellor should resign for having received fixed penalty notices.
Leaving it for several days before making an announcement, which is widely accepted that he should make, simply makes it look as if he wasn't sure whether he would resign.
So that now even if he is found to have done nothing wrong by the police people will be suspicious about whether he is, like all other politicians, a massive hypocrite who despite calling for Johnson to resign wouldn't have resigned himself.
Starmer had the opportunity to grab the high ground, which is mostly what he is attempting to do in his battles with Johnson, and he missed an open goal
Being a senior politician requires the individual to make quick, firm, and decisive decisions, to changing situations. I would expect it from a prime minister so no less so from a prime minister in waiting.
Johnson, after his many lies to parliament were uncovered, has been refusing to answer any direct questions for months because we're "waiting for Sue Gray" or "waiting for the Police report"... but Starmer has to resolve things in 48 hours?
So that now even if he is found to have done nothing wrong by the police people will be suspicious about whether he is, like all other politicians
Well, that is whole point of this mud slinging... they can't redeem Johnson's reputation, but they can pile in on the "they're all the same" angle. They aren't. Johnson is in another league. None of this is in anyway equivalent to the month of lock down parties in 2020, and the many attempts to deny, explain away, and now just get people to forget about them.
This is a bad headline from a pro-Labour newspaper:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-weighing-up-pledge-26913800
Starmer shouldn't be "weighing up" a pledge, it makes it seem as if he isn't certain.
That is funny. Johnson, after his many lies to parliament were uncovered
Your point caller? Everyone sane knows Johnson isnt PM material and so comparing Starmer against him is flawed. Do you really want the standard to be set by Johnson?
Starmer could have got control of the situation quickly enough and made Johnson look even more of a self serving arsehole than before but failed to do so.
Very poor showing from Starmer IMO. Unlike many here I've largely had confidence (albeit waning with time) in him but that interview was poor. Claiming to be honest and unlike the tories while simultaneously using the same soundbite and refusing to answer questions directly was a bad look. Even a simple question like 'were you embarrassed?' was ignored, would have been easy to say 'of course I'm embarrassed but I ahve confidence in the police'
disappointed to be honest.
Do you really want the standard to be set by Johnson?
Absolutely not. While we're used to the standards expected of Labour leaders being far higher than for Conservative leaders... this one now has gone bonkers. Johnson can keep kicking anything and everything down the tracks, and people should move on... against why hasn't Starmer got this sorted already? What are the Daily Mail calling it BEERGATE, DAY 12? And he's "running scared"... while Johnson lies, deflects and avoids for months and months (and will do for many more months to come)... and he's described as "battling" and "defiant".
Rayner & Starmer have both said they'll resign if fined. Good, just a pity they didn't say that in the first place.
Can't help but think Starmer has just signed his own death warrant. Not that he had any choice, because he's been digging his own grave for some time now. Maybe I'm being overly suspicious but I have no faith at all that the decision by the cops will not be influenced by the politics. I guess the crux will be whether Starmer resigning is good or bad for Johnson? Given Johnson's lack of self-awareness and tendency to take the high risk route I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to pull the trigger.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he decides to pull the trigger.
You mean call an election?
Because you can't mean him resigning because of his own words and actions.
The Tories now saying that Starmer is being unfair on poor Durham Police
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1523669231711420416
He's dancing round on a pinhead.
At his press conference today every other line was "I'm different / I'm honest / I have integrity".
He then pledges to resign not if he's found to have broken the covid regulations but only if he is fined for having done so.
As Durham Police have already said they won't issue fines retrospectively this seems like a pretty empty pledge - not least because Sunak was fined simply for having walked into a room where people were drinking cups of tea.
The Tories now saying that Starmer is being unfair on poor Durham Police
You mean, whatever Starmer does do, or doesn't do, or considers before doing... he's in the wrong with this one? Seems so.
You mean call an election?
You know what I mean. The men in grey suits will be mobilised to put pressure on the Durham Chief Constable to ensure the result that will be most beneficial for Johnson. Johnson just has to decide what that is.
Johnson just has to decide what that is.
Oh, you're on that line still are you. I honestly thought you were joking. I don't think the police will issue a fine based on instructions handed down from the PM. I do think political decisions can be involved as regards to having (or continuing, or reopening) investigations, but I don't think that they will issue a fine without having everything present and correct to do so.
He then pledges to resign not if he’s found to have broken the covid regulations but only if he is fined for having done so.
Wise. To issue a fine the police have to be ready for a legal challenge (in this case from a back bench MP, after Starmer has stepped down) so will need to have proof and a clear case to present. But the wording of any statement when a fine isn't going to happen is likely to be non-committal either way, and could be jumped on as... "They weren't cleared, therefore they should resign".
What are the Daily Mail calling it BEERGATE, DAY 12?
Ermmm because its the daily hate. I am surprised you seem to have only just noticed they do this sort of thing and then get amplified by others.
Now if Starmer had done the announcement he just did right when the police announced it was being referred they would have had the wind taken out of their sails.
All your hyperbole about getting it sorted misses the mark. All he needed to do was take some clear action rather than act like Johnson and pretend it wasnt happening.
I am surprised you seem to have only just noticed they do this sort of thing and then get amplified by others.
I presume you skipped over the last few pages where I made the same point repeatedly.
I've no idea why he waited, what, 2 days, to make this move. Or even if it is the right one. But if it could take Rayner and others down with him, I hope he did take time to talk it through with everyone involved and affected, rather than just blurt it out day one to the media.
God I hate politicians and the media 😐
The Labour Party really should grow a pair and stand up to the media. Keir's cosying up to various papers has done him no good has it?
I don’t think the police will issue a fine based on instructions handed down from the PM.
They won't be stupid enough to instruct them. They're far more subtle and clever than that.
I’ve no idea why he waited, what, 2 days, to make this move. Or even if it is the right one. But if it could take Rayner and others down with him, I hope he did take time to talk it through with everyone involved and affected, rather than just blurt it out day one to the media.
He's a renowned lawyer and QC, i doubt he's not put some thought into this, the issue with Rayner was caused by the labour party spokesperson stating she wasn't there, not Starmer or his office i believe.
I'd guess it's taken two days because it's over the weekend, and he'll have told the party/team first.
Personally i'm starting to think SKS needs to find a way out, he's got a decent career outside of politics and Labour and the party just seem to spend more time fighting themselves than the tories.
SKS had to say this. I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference to Boris.
the issue with Rayner was caused by the labour party spokesperson stating she wasn’t there, not Starmer or his office i believe
True, but if Starmer says "I'll resign if I am fined", and then she doesn't... around and around it goes. They need the same approach (again, not sure this is a good one, but it may well be the least bad one right now, I don't know), and they need to have discussed and agreed it as a team.
The Labour Party really should grow a pair and stand up to the media.
On this one, they were, until the Police enquiry was reopened.
I don’t think it’ll make a blind bit of difference to Boris.
Agreed.
Keir’s cosying up to various papers has done him no good has it?
Absolutely.
He needs to "cosy up" to their readers though.
As this seems to have really annoyed the, RW save big dog journos and the hardcore corbynistas
It's probably the right move as regards the majority of the electorate.
All those client journos banging on about beergate , now have the very real possibility of Starmer boosting his reputation and Johnson being damaged even further
Alternative is that he gets fined and has to quit, but either way Johnson is diminished
He needs to “cosy up” to their readers though
He has and it hasn't worked because they have Johnson.
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer's pedigree to not know he's broken the law?
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
With laws as badly drafted as the COVID ones?
Who knows and the reason there are appeals processes etc is that law is elastic & dynamic, to varying degrees.
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
He's reiterated every time why he believes he has not 'broken' any law, but it's down to interpretation by someone else, specifically on the exemptions around the COVID rules.
As for all the talk of Johnson, why are people bothering with this rubbish, he is currently PM because he backstabbed his fellow tories and friends, lied, and backed a Brexit campaign for personal reasons, rather than what he actually believed in. He has had scandal after scandal in his life without batting an eyelid, let alone 'doing the honourable thing', at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
Best case scenario is that a pissed off copper has tipped Starmer the nod that there won't be a FPN, and make whatever capital out of it you can.
Whatever, it won't affect Johnson. He wouldn't resign if he was found, covered in blood, holding a bloodied lead pipe next to the corpse of Mr Black in the Library. And the kind of arsehole that votes for Brexit or a Conservative party headed by Johnson wouldn't give a shit anyway.
It is what it is.
🤷♂️
Angela Rayner said she'd resign as well if fined. TBH there was nowhere for either of them to go otherwise and this way they hold the higher ground.
I suspect they will not be fined - but if they are and go, then it will provide a perfect opportunity for the Tories to call a snap election. It would be a desperate and shitty trick - but...
Being thick here but would it be possible for a lawyer of Starmer’s pedigree to not know he’s broken the law?
I think he KNOWS he hasn't.
But that in itself won't stop the noise, and saying that he knows that he hasn't broken the law will make it worse.
And he's damned if he looks like he's telling the police how to do their job (or the job of the CPS), so he just has to let the investigation proceed.
As for all the talk of Johnson, why are people bothering with this rubbish, he is currently PM because he backstabbed his fellow tories and friends, lied, and backed a Brexit campaign for personal reasons, rather than what he actually believed in. He has had scandal after scandal in his life without batting an eyelid, let alone ‘doing the honourable thing’, at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
+1 @agree - agreed!
From a recent Guardian article:
After hours of agonising with key aides, Starmer said he intended to draw a distinction with Boris Johnson’s approach.
I find that so bizarre, it should have been a piece of piss to say from the start "of course I will resign if I am issued with a fixed penalty notice - haven't I been saying all along that Johnson should resign for recieving a FPN?".
I don't know where the "hours of agonising with key aids" comes from. Unless it's not true and the Guardian is now gunning for Starmer.
I think he KNOWS he hasn’t
but it’s down to interpretation by someone else,
And those two statements highlight the issue.
If he KNOWS he hasn't why would he have had to say he would resign?
So it's looking like he doesn't know.
I guess if it was just about him then yes is probably is a piece of piss, but there's another leadership contest with no obvious successor to consider.
There might be doubt?
If he KNOWS he hasn’t why would he have had to say he would resign?
So it’s looking like he doesn’t know.
He is Schrodinger's opposition leader - but the situation will resolve as soon as the box is opened. Either he and Rayner will go and that will be big the story - plus a protracted leadership contest. Or he's not fined so he can attack Boris from the moral high ground when more No10 fines come through. What happens in the limbo period will be forgotten
There might be doubt?
But I'm just trying to understand why someone of his professional pedigree would not know the absolute ins and outs of the law at that time.
he probably has a good case but innocent people are convicted and the guilty go free?
If there is a leadership contest I reckon Lisa Nandy and Wes Streeting are positioning
But I’m just trying to understand why someone of his professional pedigree would not know the absolute ins and outs of the law at that time.
If this all goes tits up for Starmer his mistake won't be that he broke covid restrictions, it will be that he created such a song and dance about Johnson breaking them. Especially considering how long the charge sheet against Johnson is.
I know everyone one on here is mostly perfect but I doubt that there are many who never over the last couple of years broke, even unwittingly, covid restrictions.
If he KNOWS he hasn’t why would he have had to say he would resign?
I would have thought the opposite. Assuming he doesn't actually want an excuse for resigning, and would prefer to stay as leader, then offering to resign makes sense, as he won't actually have to resign.
If there is a leadership contest I reckon Lisa Nandy v Wes Streeting
They’re both soft left I believe, I can’t see a contest without a real left, unions backed candidate, not even sure who on that end would be viable, Rayner was the closest, RLB is a bit of a bust and the rest are a bit green?
Don't think the PLP will let any type of left wing candidate on the ballot.
Sigh.
Putting his political career on the line, Sir Keir, who stressed that he was “absolutely clear” no rules were broken, said that if he is fined by police, he will “do the right thing and step down”
That's a bit of a stronger statement than our fat lying sack of dung of a PM, mr Johnson, what was the best he could muster?...let me recall the time line..
1) I wasn't there
2) I was there but it wasn't a party
3) It was a party but no one told me it was a a party
4) It's just a FPN, I've better things to worry about, nothing to see here
etc etc...
at least Starmer has put his money where his mouth is on this one.
Because I don't know where else to post this, although I understand the issue I'm absolutely aghast that of all of Johnsons lying, cheating, extortion, mistakes, cover ups etc etc that he's managed to stay in power AND then may still be present to gloat about removing the opposition leader over a bottle of beer (I know, the law was broken).
It almost beggars belief.
If this all goes tits up for Starmer his mistake won’t be that he broke covid restrictions, it will be that he created such a song and dance about Johnson breaking them.
That's not really my recollection. It felt like he went ages being slated for NOT calling for Johnson's resignation and being too soft on him - witness this tweet (and the disappointed replies from labour supporters) from December:
https://mobile.twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1468574092156870659
…removing the opposition leader over a bottle of beer (I know, the law was broken).
it’s not the bottle of beer, they are aiming it at whether he went back to work after the meal, the fact it looked like a working dinner (wandering round talking shop) is going to be the area to interpret. There’s a lot of info missing to work out, such as when the ‘meal’ finished and when Starmer left, that itinerary just states when something was planned, not if it actually happened.
(I know, the law was broken)
But was it though? parhaps we should await the police decision over issuing a FPN?... 😀
What's the tally of fines Sad sack and his wretched hive of cronies up to now? I think it's 30+?
I'm not entirely sure, but I am sure the number of resignations over this issue in the tory party is zero.
What’s the tally of fines Sad sack and his wretched hive of cronies up to now? I think it’s 30+?
It's more like 50, with just 2? parties investigated so far, final total will be in the 100s
Labour saying they can show starmer worked until 1am
The evidence that starmer did break the law presented by the RW press so far is pretty flimsy- perhaps that's why all the client journos that have been pushing this have suddenly gone into meltdown -
Also it turns out the person that filmed through the window is the son of antilockdown, covidiot and RWvhack James Delingpole
The future could be grim for KS. Johnson will lash out like this, if cornered.
Is it a "beyond reasonable doubt" measure for a fixed penalty - if so it's unlikely that he will be found guilty.
And the electorate will lap it up. That is how we got here in the first place.
Lap what up, starmer and rayner being absolute that they broke no rules with no FPN's, or the conservatives that have 30 to 50 FPN's all uncontested as presumably they are as guilty as sin?
It's clearly a massive attempt of whataboutery and mud slinging from the blue corner, that's all they know.
Johnson will lash out like this, if cornered.
He's no master strategist, just a chancer with an eye for a good headline
Starmer has snookered him on this one, he's neutered attacks and questions while the investigations run, but now every press conference Johnson faces will be derailed by these questions.
I know the Daily Telegraph slipped into the gutter a long time ago under the guidance of Conrad Black, but there are times when it actually makes the Daily Mail look moderate.
Obviously I don't subscribe to it but here's a choice rabble-rousing tabloid headline from them:
The Telegraph: Desperate Keir Starmer plays the High Priest of Politics to mask his 'beergate' hypocrisy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/09/desperate-keir-starmer-plays-high-priest-politics-mask-beergate/
"Labour leader pretends to be holier than thou, but the public just sees the posturing of a man failing to practise what he preaches".
FFS
I know the Daily Telegraph slipped into the gutter
I was hoping the Barclays clan internal feuding would mean it would get sold and go back to being a proper tory paper (not one I would agree with most of the opinions but could respect why they came up with them) but sadly it seems overly optimistic.
The Tory press are absolutely hating the trap they've sprung on themselves & Johnson
They really didn't think this through
https://twitter.com/OprosUK/status/1523708788376625152?t=4dYm_DMvhyRUCtYxzX9iHA&s=19
“Labour leader pretends to be holier than thou, but the public just sees the posturing of a man failing to practise what he preaches”.
Just heard the same line repeated on Newsnight by a Conservative MP.
The Tory press are absolutely hating the trap they’ve sprung on themselves & Johnson
Some are trying hard to suggest that it's Starmer that's spring the trap by... er... answering the hypothetical question they've been complaining he won't answer.
Mail tomorrow have gone for "MPs say it's a cynical ploy to influence outcome of the investigation" and "Starmer was accused of putting 'deeply inappropriate' pressure on Beergate police last night". Where as, only this morning it was "he is under intense pressure to say if would resign if he was fined".
At the end of the week, it’ll be well worth looking back at what the government announced while the Daily Mail manufactured non-scandal surrounding Starmer was all everyone was talking about… this one was from Friday…
…Oluwole Kolade is well worth looking into… not just his large donations, but his private equity interests as regards healthcare. A very Javid friendly appointment.
Lap what up?
mud slinging from the blue corner
Answered your own question there. Although it isn't so much a blue corner any more as a red and white one.
Ingerland, ingerland, la-la, oi-oi.
🏴🏴🏴🏴
At the end of the week, it’ll be well worth looking back at what the government announced while the Daily Mail manufactured non-scandal surrounding Starmer was all everyone was talking about…
Indeed. It’s the queens speech today and the main element will be a further crackdown on the right to peaceful protest and a further erosion of democracy.
Boris Johnson to force through new anti-protest curbs in Queen’s speech
You can tell that Lynton Crosby is well and truly back in control at number ten and his minions at the Mail/Express/Times/telegraph are only too eager to do his bidding