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We’re not the US, our currency isn’t that strong
It only needs to be strong enough to raise debt in sterling. The fact that the market in UK govt debt hasn’t collapsed following brexit and covid proves it is strong enough.
any public ownership discussions will end up with a lot of upset foreign owners,
And? That’s entirely the point isn’t it?
Which voters would they be? If you’re talking about the 28% of eligible voters who voted tory in 2019 then I wouldn’t call that ‘most’.
That 28% yielded 365 seats in parliament for them, giving them the majority of the house, which in turn has given them free reign to allow someone like Boris Johnson to stay in power, rather than give power to Jeremy Corbyn.
The cost of nuclear is relatively static – has gone up 8 fold.
It's a traded commodity.
the reason we are in the current mess is down to poor decisions in the early 2000s.
As fun as it is to blame new labour for everything in this case they are partially innocent. The problem dates back to the early 80s when the tories decided they werent overly fond of state involvement in, anything really but, specifically the electrical sector and wanted to privatise the lot. At which point the expertise we had acquired at some expense got lost and from then on we got put into the position of having to support foreign state owned firms who wanted to offset the costs onto anyone but their own taxpayers.
So the example of France is kind of irrelevant for the reasons set out above – the “supply” cost there hasn’t changed whereas it has here.
The govt could - if they wanted - limit energy price rises. They could subsidise the energy companies, limit energy companies' profits, pay half the bill for people, bin green levies, cut the vat etc etc.
Why dont Labour attack the Tories on their lack of patriotism?
This is a very good question and one which could have been asked 40 years ago when Thatcher was PM.
Labour has always let the Tories off the hook with their completely fake patriotism.
The Tories will always put the interests of big business, wherever in the world it might be based, before the interests of ordinary working people in the UK.
As an aside, the reason the UK’s own share of electricity from Nuclear fell through the floor is because Labour policy from 1997 to 2010 Was to refuse permission for any replacement nuclear power stations.
I thought you were a strong supporter of the markets and non government intervention cheddar?
My understanding is that no nuclear energy industry anywhere in the world is, or has ever been, commercially viable. I believe ever since the very first nuclear power station the industry has always relied on government subsidies.
Yeah, Socialism isn’t up for discussion for me, we’d have to actually have some assets within the country to make it even viable, or funds, neither of which the UK has at present.
This is nonsense.
The funds that you talk of ultimately come from the BoE. The BoE is tasked to mark up the government's account whenever it is reuqired to.
Resources on the other hand...
No one was asking where the money came from, least of all the labour party
Exactly.
The government can only be seen to do this when it has to. But it likes to pretend it can't.
You see that 400billion for covid support that was spent - Yet the Tories claim by their own measure to have a bit of extra cash floating about in the spring statement. Despite spending all that cash and not funding from taxation.
The deficit is what ends up on the private sector.
There's currently a personal debt crisis blooming because currently the government deficit is too small, and the flow of cash into the private sector is getting smaller.
No one knows what will happen to inflation but the Tory playbook will have a tax cut ready at some point.
They will have their own 'solution'.
Nothing from Labour.
Labour have no ideology they have nowhere to go - you can only be competent if you have ideas to be competent with.
I thought you were a strong supporter of the markets and non government intervention cheddar?
Lol. Really. Despite all the evidence that markets collapse without the state! Did he just not witness how the market reacted during the pandemic?
Does anyone still believe this?
Once again, there is no market without the state and its central bank creating money with a tax liability to force you to pay taxes, and give currency value.
Without that there is no market or value for your tokens. And that's not even taking into account the infrastructure that state provides.
We’re not the US, our currency isn’t that strong, and Brexit, the bank crisis, etc has weakened it to the point of where we are now, any messing about with QE will make inflation go higher, any public ownership discussions will end up with a lot of upset foreign owners, and their countries of origin.
QE has not affected the CPI inflation we have now. For the record there was 400ish billion of QE between 2008 - 2019. Inflation remained at 2%.
Restriction to supply of goods has created this latest bout of inflation. You see, when we off-shore nearly everything we consume and supply chains breakdown during a pandemic and there is a shortage of all sorts of things then supply is limited and inflation expands.
Money that was 'injected' via bond-buying into the economy was replacing lost income during the pandemic. Lost income... because people weren't working and still had to pay bills. (Or the economy would have been even worse.)
So the upshot is that this inflation situation is largely driven by supply shortages not as the right-wingers have you believe QE.
(Add in Brexit too.)
It's all there to see.
It is an open goal imo. Stop trying to out flag shag them FFS! Just point out all the infrastructure they have sold to foreign companies. Do it every chance you get!
Absolutely this.
The actual last thing the Tories are is patriotic.
(Because the market sits above that. We are seeking the best value for our customers blah blah blah.)
The embarrassment of being nationalistic but having nothing to be actually proud about!
Anyone remember in the 80s when Buzby and Sid were handing out a few hundred quid to your uncle as now they could own a bit?
Yeah well we weren't wealthy enough to buy something we already owned. But despite being young I could the see redistribution from poor to rich taking place.
Most folk in the UK want a fairer system, they want to eradicate homeless, poverty and healthcare, but then when the options are put in front of them, they tend to vote for comfort.
Exactly this. Put a lot of blind test policies in front of people and I would say Labour/Green/SNP policies would come out ahead of Conservatives.
Then when it comes to the vote they vote Tory because you know, you can't trust Labour.
So labour don't have a whole lot to say about increasing people's incomes to deal with inflation but they're totally on the case with spending more money on military hardware that will probably never be used.
In other news they've just proscribed another bunch of campaign groups so they can kick out more troublesome lefties.
Every European country will be increasing military spending, depressing though that is. It's the only possible response to what is happening right now. Those of us that want nuclear disarmament and spending shifted away from defence and towards, well, everything else need to accept that requires buy in from Russia to happen. While Russia is seeking to expand the RF by force, European countries needs to prepare to defend themselves. No one knows how the next USA presidential election will go, and how that could leave European countries to defend themselves if NATO is undermined by USA isolationism aligned to Russian interests. Disarmament in Europe is more than paused, it is going backwards, and only Russia can change that in the coming years.
In other news they’ve just proscribed another bunch of campaign groups so they can kick out more troublesome lefties.
To be fair, if you look at the names of those 'proscribed' groups they look like a collection of satirical experimental comedy theatre groups at the Edinburgh fringe, some of which may or may not involve interpretive dance
I made the mistake of reading the wikipedia page one of the groups (AWL). I couldn't comment on it any way that didn't sound like a Monty Python sketch, so I didn't say anything here. This thread is looping into irrelevance enough already without that kind of contribution.
It's great that Labour is focussing on the important issues, rather than making itself ever more irrelevant.
Labour are far from irrelevant. This thread is though. Same old nothings from the same old posters. Utterly pointless.
[ and yes, I include my own contributions... an utter waste of time ]
Labour are far from irrelevant. This thread is though.
Au contraire. I pop in for an occasional browse to see what the Tory prospects are for the next GE. Nothing I read in this thread so far suggests that they have anything to worry about.
Labour are far from irrelevant.
Polling evidence, Johnson still being in post, the onward march of ever increasing inequality and impoverishment of working people, and the impotence of labour to do anything about these things would suggest otherwise.
No, labour are currently a total irrelevance, and they'll remain so until they discover some backbone and start challenging the people, policies, institutions and organisations which are currently working in direct opposition to the interests of working people.
Labour are far from irrelevant.
They certainly shouldn't be, given the transformational and urgent changes we need right now. But they are.
Au contraire. I pop in for an occasional browse to see what the Tory prospects are for the next GE. Nothing I read in this thread so far suggests that they have anything to worry about.
Luckily, the regular contributors to this thread are probably about as unrepresentative of the average voter as its possible to get.
Otherwise we'd all be living in some weird sort of rainy, cold Venezuela 😉
Anyway... PMQ's...
Even Wes Streeting can answer stupid questions. The top two future leadership candidates are clearly much better at this than the current leader. What are the PLP waiting for??
https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1509074440616882180?s=20&t=yIxpwgwEIq2jiL8yWId8CA
To be fair, Starmer does make lots of points.
Starmer does make lots of points.
Where as all the PM has is… “Labour want to take us back into lockdown and back into the EU”.
Groundhog Day. Johnson has broken Britain and is stuck in a nonsensical loop.
Labour are far from irrelevant. This thread is though.
The problem with this thread is that Keir Starmer's leadership doesn't provide any basis for relevant debate.
Unless your preoccupation is whether Geronimo the alpaca should die or whether the next James Bond should be a woman, with or without a penis.
On most issues, which interest most people, Starmer's position appears to be that he would do exactly the same as Boris Johnson only better.
Which is hardly the basis for lively and interesting debate.
The problem with this thread is Keir Starmer.
Even binners who is clearly a huge fan of Starmer, presumably on the basis that like himself he hates lefties, is reduced to posting pictures and hurling insults at anyone doesn't see Starmer as some sort of messiah who will save Labour. What else is there for him to do?
The problem with this thread isn’t the occasional stupid question that journalists ask the leader of the opposition, it’s that some people repeat them again, and again, and again… boring any normal person away from the thread. Around, and around, and around.
Perhaps you could give us an approved list of topics to discuss, so everything can be on your terms.
Well why don't you break the circle Kelvin by bringing onto the thread all the inspirational announcements that Starmer has made and all the radical new policies he has to offer?
🥱
I should probably ask for ban to stop myself adding to the nothingness.
Shall I report your post and put you out of your misery? 🤣
You have a point though
Yeah you find this thread so boring that you keep coming back.
Is it to check if binners has posted some new and different pics, or found new words to describe lefties?
Well why don’t you break the circle Kelvin by bringing onto the thread all the inspirational announcements that Starmer has made
Given that you and he share the same view of Starmer, perhaps you could do it instead?
Even Wes Streeting can answer stupid questions. The top two future leadership candidates are clearly much better at this than the current leader. What are the PLP waiting for??
He talked for over a minute and never answered the original question, bar saying 'case by case basis' or 'common sense', it was just waffle against a stupid question.
Given that you and he share the same view of Starmer, perhaps you could do it instead?
Ernie wasn't the one complaining about the thread.
But we all know the problem: Starmer is deeply uninspiring so there's very little to talk about.
I'm less interested in Starmer and more interested in why the parliamentary labour party appear to have no interest in winning the next election. There's usually lots of noise across the political spectrum, and in particularly on the backbenches about the direction of parties, leaderships and their chances at future elections. A good example is the tory backbench revolt against Johnson, who was told unambiguously that his performance wasn't good enough. But the PLP are completely silent. Almost no one is talking about Starmer and how good or bad he seems to be doing. Anyone care to speculate why?
I’m less interested in Starmer and more interested in why the parliamentary labour party appear to have no interest in winning the next election.
So you are interested now? Why? You lot didn't seem interested in winning power 2015-2019 when you put the other guy in charge.
You lot
Who is 'my lot'??
'My lot' were very interested in winning an election between 2015 and 2017, that's why we joined the party in our hundreds of thousands, donated millions and volunteered thousands of hours of time knocking on doors and campaigning in elections. What did the PLP do? Oh yeah they spent all their time sniping from the sidelines like spoilt children because they didn't get the leader they wanted.
What did the PLP do? Oh yeah they spent all their time sniping from the sidelines like spoilt children because they didn’t get the leader they wanted.
On that note it's some sort of small pay-off the Doom end-of-level baddie ex-Labour MP - LORD FFS Ian Austin was involved in a slap-down for his big shitty Telegraph empowered gob recently.
These people should have never been anywhere near the Labour Party.
"We accept that there was and is no basis to suggest that Ms Murray is anti-Semitic," the statement said.
"On the contrary; the court heard in unchallenged evidence that Ms Murray devoted significant time and energy to confronting and challenging antisemitism within the Labour Party whilst she was employed there. The Telegraph and Ian Austin apologise to Ms Murray. We have agreed to pay her substantial damages."
Starmer has it damn easy.
Starmer has it damn easy.
And he’s still shit. What all this is showing is that Corbyn and McDonnell were much more competent and effective than people gave them credit for (I never doubted McDonnell anyway), and that the PLP have monumentally terrible judgement in who their leader should be and how they can beat the tories. They’ve been handed own goal after own goal in a benign media environment against a proven liar and they still can’t make headway.
Corbyn and McDonnell were much more competent and effective than people gave them credit for
To be fair to them, it’s difficult to imagine a dream team more effective at delivering power with a thumping great majority!
… for the Tory’s
I’m sure Boris and chums go all Misty-eyed in awe of their brilliance
I’m sure Boris and chums go all Misty-eyed in awe of their brilliance
They probably thought they’d never be that lucky again. Until now, where they can literally hold parties while people are dying and locked in their homes and still come up smelling of roses.
Starmer’s dream team have been outplayed, outfought and outfoxed by the likes of Johnson, Truss, Raab, Dorries and Rees-Mogg. That takes a special level of incompetence far beyond anything we’ve seen before.
it’s difficult to imagine a dream team more effective at delivering power with a thumping great majority!
… for the Tory’s
Yup, the PLP did a blinding job. The Tories must have been particularly impressed when Starmer was part of a coordinated front bench mass resignation to maximize the damage to the then Labour leader.
Starmer could not have possibly done more to help the Tories.
Cat is shocked by the confusion of possessive nouns and plurals.
Cat is shocked by the confusion of possessive nouns and plurals.
😂
Yes of course, mass Labour front bench resignations did nothing to help the Tories, only a cat wearing a foil hat would think that.
I’m less interested in Starmer and more interested in why the parliamentary labour party appear to have no interest in winning the next election.
The Labour Party has become a middle-class protest movement. It now exists solely to protest and complain about the Tories.
It doesn't exist to offer any sort of radical alternative.
And complaining is easy, it comes without responsibility. Complaining about Tories is particularly easy, for obvious reasons.
However under the previous leadership the PLP was expected to offer an alternative vision to the one offered by the Tories. And, argue the case.
Which I'm sure you'll agree sounds like hard work.
Now however the PLP is back in safe and familiar territory..... back to simply complaining about the Tories. And if voters fancy giving them a chance they'll have a go at doing what the Tories are doing but better. If not, no worries, they'll just carrying on complaining about the Tories.
Which I’m sure you’ll agree sounds like hard work.
Absolutely. I’ve been saying for some time now that labour MPs have no interest in beating the tories because just being an MP is an achievement for them. All they have to do is maintain that. Sticking their necks out to try to achieve more means risking their 80k salaries and over-inflated status. Similarly for Starmer the pinnacle of his career is being leader of the party rather than PM. He’s like the chair of a large company who is in post for a limited 5 year term before he retires.
Where Corbyn went wrong is he dared to achieve more than simply being in a position of power. He risked his career in order to change things and he’s sacrificed a lot for that. That’s why he inspired those who support him and enraged those opposed to him. He held a mirror to every self-serving empty vessel careerist labour MP and they didn’t like being exposed.
Today's Labour Party summed up in one picture by binners.
To be fair to them, it’s difficult to imagine a dream team more effective at delivering power with a thumping great majority!
I mean just let Starmer, Reeves and Streeting roll off the tongue.
Stand in awe at their achievements thus far.
Luke warm Tory mouthpieces and still barely making a dent.
Luke warm Tory mouthpieces and still barely making a dent.
Barely making a dent? They're been ahead of the Tories in all the polls for months now, with the local elections approaching.
What exactly is it you want? Apart from shouty clips on Twitter, obviously? We all miss those, don't we?
Rachel Reeves has just been on Radio 4 saying how they intend to focus on the cost of living crisis during the local election campaign and stress the labour proposal for a windfall tax on the energy companies to be used to reduce household energy bills.
Sounds pretty sensible to me, and exactly what the labour party should be doing, surely?
coordinated front bench mass resignation to maximize the damage to the then Labour leader.
You've posted a tin foil hat wearing cat after this statement Binbins- do you think that it didn't happen and is just a conspiracy theory?
Of course it happened. It was a reaction to the totally ineffective uselessness of those at the head of the party. What also happened was the beardy messiah losing a vote of no confidence by 172 votes to 40 amongst his own MPs. That proved to be somewhat prosaic as he went on to lose two elections and hand an enormous majority to the Tories
So, I don't buy this ludicrous alternative-reality narrative that if those MPs had just shut up and gone along with Grandad that we'd now be living in some socialist utopia
Its pure fantasy! A comforting balm for the common room.
Anyway... back to today. I'll ask again...
The labour party has been ahead of the Tories in all the polls for months now, with the local elections approaching. From a starting point of -24 in the polls when the socialist dream team belatedly shuffled off to the allotment
So... once again... what exactly is it that you want?
Not a conspiracy theory then you just posted the tin foil hat cat on accident?
So… once again… what exactly is it that you want?
Well under the previous leadership you set the bar fairly high binners, you claimed that Labour should have had a 20% lead over the Tories.
Now under Starmer, your messiah who will save Labour, you appear to be extremely satisfied with Labour having just a 2% lead over the Tories, which is what the latest opinion poll shows.
Still, I guess it's because things are going so swimmingly for the Tories, it can't possibly be Starmer's fault that Labour only has a 2% lead, eh?
Oh and Corbyn..... it's probably also Corbyn's fault.
And covid.
Plus the war in Ukraine.
Probably Johnson too for being so slippery.
Definitely not Starmer's.
do you think that it didn’t happen and is just a conspiracy theory?
I read that as surprised about the fact that Ernie suggests that Starmer had some sort of major role in it when it was organised by Hilary Benn and Tom Watson. And in the reshuffle after Corbyn's 2nd win in October he made Starmer Shadow Brexit secretary, it seems an odd move to promote someone who had been apparently actively campaigning against you.
So… once again… what exactly is it that you want?
I think Starmer will win (Boris will lose) What I want is him to do something worthwhile when he gets into office. Noises he is making suggests he wont.
Not a conspiracy theory then you just posted the tin foil hat cat on accident?
The conspiracy theory nonsense (so beloved of 'the left') is that by labour MPs expressing how useless Old Magic was, with a vote of no confidence, that this somehow prevented the glorious revolution
It's simply a ludicrous fantasy that those in the sixth form like to comfort themselves with to save themselves from facing the reality.... That I've got more chance of becoming the next pope than Jeremy Corbyn ever had of becoming PM
Anyway... back to the real world... at the risk of becoming repetitive (perish the thought)...
The labour party has been ahead of the Tories in all the polls for months now, with the local elections approaching. From a starting point of -24 in the polls when the socialist dream team belatedly shuffled off to the allotment
So… once again… what exactly is it that you want?
And in the reshuffle after Corbyn’s 2nd win in October he made Starmer Shadow Brexit secretary, it seems an odd move to promote someone who had been apparently actively campaigning against you.
The daft git probably thought he could appease the blairites.
Look how he tolerated Margaret Hodge publicly calling him a racist. And compare that with how the right-wing are now expelling anyone with the vaguest hint of dissent.
The conspiracy theory nonsense is that by labour MPs expressing how useless Old Magic was, with a vote of no confidence, that this somehow prevented the glorious revolution
Its simply a ludicrous fantasy that those in the sixth form like to comfort themselves with to save themselves from facing the reality…. That I’ve got more chance of becoming the next pope than Jeremy Corbyn ever had of becoming PM
You don't know what a conspiracy theory is.
Now under Starmer, your messiah who will save Labour, you appear to be extremely satisfied with Labour having just a 2% lead over the Tories, which is what the latest opinion poll shows.
Just to repeat, Comrade; When Starmer took over from the sainted one, Labour were 24 points adrift of the Tories in the polls after an absolutely catastrophic election loss.
Everything's relative
What I want is him to do something worthwhile when he gets into office. Noises he is making suggests he wont.
History has shown us that once in office Labour leaders become much more right-wing. There is nothing to suggest that in the extremely unlikely event of Labour winning the next general election Starmer will behave any different.
So expect Starmer to be like he is now but more right-wing.
Yeah I know, it's hard to imagine.
The daft git probably thought he could appease the blairites.
Uh-huh, or he was casting around for any warm bodies to fill vacant shadow cabinet places, wasn't there an octogenarian filling one post?
I think you can fairly blame Starmer for a number of things, conspiring to oust Corbyn in 2016 isn't one of them
Absolutely. I’ve been saying for some time now that labour MPs have no interest in beating the tories because just being an MP is an achievement for them. All they have to do is maintain that. Sticking their necks out to try to achieve more means risking their 80k salaries and over-inflated status. Similarly for Starmer the pinnacle of his career is being leader of the party rather than PM. He’s like the chair of a large company who is in post for a limited 5 year term before he retires.
@dazh - replace Labour with SNP and Starmer with Sturgeon and you've captured the position in Scotland really well. If Labour pointed out the carrot-dangling rather than blindly thrashing about, fighting against independence with a party that doesn't want independence in the first place, they might get somewhere north of the border. Who knows, that might actually kick-start something.
Everything’s relative
Shall we stick with the "real world" and see how many seats he has actually won with an increased majority since 2019?
Libdems have done well but this great new labour. Not so much.
The daft git probably thought he could appease the blairites.
The biggest mistake Corbyn made was not being ruthless enough to get rid of the blairite arseholes. That happened because fundamentally he's a decent bloke who instinctively rejects confrontation and conflict, but it was a huge error.
History has shown us that once in office Labour leaders become much more right-wing. There is nothing to suggest that in the extremely unlikely event of Labour winning the next general election Starmer will behave any different
So Corbyn would have been a filthy Centrists and having him as PM would have been totally pointless?
Everything’s relative
When it's pointed out that Labour did relatively well in 2017, you point out that can't be true because they still lost. Have you changed your mind? Or are you going to do your usual trick of denying what you said?
When it’s pointed out that Labour did relatively well in 2017, you point out that can’t be true because they still lost. Have you changed your mind?
Relatively well?
Well how absolutely ****ing fantastic for us all!
They lost! FFS!! Thats the only thing that matters!
Not losing as badly as everyone expected then being celebrated as some kind of victory just highlights to me the utterly delusional and bizarre world inhabited by those on 'The Left'
It's madness! More specifically it allowed a man wholly unfit for the roll to carry on, when he should have been long gone, and gift wrap a huge majority for Johnson two years later after another period of flailing, rudderless uselessness
How you can view the 2017 election result as anything other than an absolute unmitigated disaster (for it has got us where we are) absolutely baffles me. You're all insane!
So Corbyn would have been a filthy Centrists and having him as PM would have been totally pointless?
He would more than likely have become less left-wing, yes. He moved more to the centre when he became leader.
When you are trying to unite a party against a common enemy a certain level of comprise is required. In contrast backbenchers can enjoy the luxury of being more maverick, which is actually quite an important role.
But had Corbyn become PM he would have governed as a social democrat so significantly different to the Tories. Even fairly right-wing social democrats are significantly different to neo-liberal free market Thatcherites.
Uh-huh, or he was casting around for any warm bodies to fill vacant shadow cabinet places, wasn’t there an octogenarian filling one post?
Well he chose a committed remainer for the role of shadow brexit sec so I think there was a clear political purpose in the appointment.
Somehow binners repeatedly manages to move the thread away from the subject matter, his Labour Party messiah Starmer, and gets it onto Corbyn.
Your arguments are weak binners but your ability to derail impressive. I'll give you that.
Although to be fair it's something that you have worked very hard at for a long time, so you should be getting quite good at it by now.
Although to be fair it’s something that you have worked very hard at for a long time, so you should be getting quite good at it by now.
I think its more just Starmer isnt doing anything noticeable. What we need is someone to come up with a hilarious gag that they repeat everytime Starmer is invisible. Maybe he is busy down the allotments? Bonus points for a few crap photos as well.
The 2017 election was a nightmare scenario for the tories due to Brexit and everything else, and they still won enough to keep going, even worse, it brought us Boris as the PM.
The fact that they called a new election 2 years later tells you how much labour fell away, and a lot of that was down to how Corbyn and his team were so easily ripped apart and made out as incompetent by the tories.
I get the feeling a few on here hark back to the 70s and would love nothing more than a trade unionist to be at the helm of the party again, but the UK have repeatedly shown that they wouldn't vote far left, the UK is more of a centrist country, with error bars that move slightly left and right now and again, Brexit shifted that right, the results have started moving it back left, but i seriously doubt voters would back a far left leader campaigning for social democracy, as they would never be able to sell it as that, they always turn into trade union spokespeople on a platform when discussing this stuff.
Somehow binners repeatedly manages to move the thread away from the subject matter, his Labour Party messiah Starmer, and gets it onto Corbyn.
It wasn't me who brought Grandad up. It never is
Its you lot going misty-eyed and harking back to it and re-writing history as if it was some mythical golden age, when in reality it was an absolute disaster!
The only things that matter are that Labour has been consistently ahead in the polls for months now and so there's maybe the glimmer of hope that we may actually have a non-Tory government (probably as some form of coalition). Somethign there hasn't been a cat in hells chance of for far too long. The vote-repelling idealogical purity of 'The Left' put paid to that