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Ernie- I could say lots about this thread and so many others but it's pointless and irrelevant; silos, entrenched views, unwillingness/inability to listen.
Much more interesting to observe from the sidelines as that provides great perspective; you should try it
Based on that logic I don’t know why Labour MPs need bother making the journey to Parliament, they could just stay at home as everyone can probably guess what they are likely to say. Just leave any important opposition to Tory rebels.
The most recent vote in the Lords as regards this policy:
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/2699
Check the division… and how Labour voted on mass.
Yes, Labour have long been against this, it is old news. The Tory rebels thinking of voting with them is much more newsworthy. The Guardian article is about the possible Tory rebellion. That is the story. I hope enough do step forward. But the policy is unworkable anyway, even if it isn’t removed from the bill.
it’s pointless and irrelevant; silos, entrenched views, unwillingness/inability to listen.
Much more interesting to observe from the sidelines as that provides great perspective; you should try it
Yeah I get that you think this thread is pointless that no one should bother with it. I just don't understand why you keep commenting on it.
Although to be fair very few, if any, of your recent comments have anything to do with the topic, ie Starmer. You appear preoccupied with other forum users.
The most recent vote in the Lords as regards this policy:
You really feel that the only opposition Labour needs to provide is when the division bell is rung?
You really feel that the only opposition Labour needs to provide is when the division bell is rung?
No, which is why I never said that.
The Guardian story is about the possible Tory rebellion in the commons when the bill comes back to the house. That is the story. Which is why it focusses on some of those Tory MPs.
In what way would is it less bad, what is Starmer proposing?
Genuine question as I can’t find anything to suggest that Starmer has provided a less bad alternative to what is undoubtedly an extremely important current issue
That half the problem refugees are more than just a current issue.
(I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek about less bad.)
Alternative – Every time the govt cocks something up, the media focus is on that rather than what the leader of the Opposition is doing. Starmer could frankly make as much noise as he likes about anything and everything, without the media (both print and telly) paying attention to that, he’s literally shouting at the sky.
A bit of passion to define a strong position is no bad thing in the eyes of the voter.
Whereas fading into the curtains...
And actually I'm less bothered about the idea of chasing cock-ups; time and time again this has proven to be diminished as news story comes along.
They need to be stronger on what Labour who do as an alternative to the Tories. I mean, it's clear the market economy has utterly failed - addressing this should be on the table for anyone with half of a brain.
But you whatch Sunak offer a nice carrot shortly, or usurp Labour because they've failed to position themselves as the party of with a social alternative.
The current time is ripe for rewiring the economy. Or at least offering some future solutions.
The country needs an economic solution more than it needs stories about covid parties.
A bit of passion to define a strong position is no bad thing in the eyes of the voter.
If you're lucky your voter might watch the nightly news, if you're extremely lucky, they might take a daily paper. Mostly though, they're not doing any of those things. They aren't hearing what Starmer is saying, Most of them don't know who he is.
The country needs an economic solution more than it needs stories about covid parties.
It needs both. It needs Labour to actually provide an alternative whilst also drilling in that when Johnson claims he will do some of those alternatives he is almost certainly lying.
without the media (both print and telly) paying attention to that, he’s literally shouting at the sky.
I would say you have a point but did you also point this out to Binners and co when they were ranting about Corbyn "being down the allotment" and other hilarious secondary school japes?
Ignore that…
It needs both. It needs Labour to actually provide an alternative whilst also drilling in that when Johnson claims he will do some of those alternatives he is almost certainly lying
Sort of agree but I know which one will change lives. I'm one for positive electioneering.
And I know which lame basket Starmer has put his eggs in.
What's with Kinnock in tow? FFS. Clearly desperation.
Most of them don’t know who he is.
This.
Sort of agree but I know which one will change lives.
I suspect that most voters care about partygate about as much as I do - annoying but it's hardly earth shattering news that Tory politicians, and indeed not necessarily just Tory politicians, can have a hypocritical sense of self-entitlement. Didn't the expenses scandal finally nail that one long ago?
In contrast for many voters transport costs, access to medical treatment, fuel and energy prices, jobs that don't disappear without warning, council services, etc etc are source of great worry rather than simple annoyance.
Yeah. How many times have we been told over the last few years that Starmer's 'forensic' attacks on Johnson will stick eventually?
A few hours of anger from Ian Dunt and then it's on to the next news story. Liberals are all about the political hot potato for an hour or two. But then after they've been failed again they move on because err ideology just doesn't matter.
It ****ing-well matters now your heating has shot up doesn't it? Even super politically quiet Martin Lewis is demanding political intervention.
In other news why am I hearing mutterings of an early GE again?
In other news why am I hearing mutterings of an early GE again?
Let’s hope so. The sooner labour can get rid of the establishment stooge leading them the better.
I suspect that most voters care about partygate about as much as I do – annoying but it’s hardly earth shattering news that Tory politicians, and indeed not necessarily just Tory politicians, can have a hypocritical sense of self-entitlement.
Not sure that's true. Its a line from those that want to move on from it, or brush it under the carpet.
Not sure that’s true. Its a line from those that want to move on from it, or brush it under the carpet
Ask people about partygate or heating today which one is really affecting them?
The Guardian story is about the possible Tory rebellion in the commons when the bill comes back to the house.
So much for the Tory rebellion…
https://twitter.com/yvettecoopermp/status/1506345451985027083?s=21
I had no idea that Alf Dubs was still alive!
Google says he's 89, good to see that he's still campaigning!
Although for obvious reasons the plight of refugees is always going to be an issue close to his heart.
But not, bizarrely, for Priti Patel.
Those parliamentary votes are truly sickening; indefensible in every way.
Ah, I came here to say that after today’s performances, Reeves really needs replacing… and was going to suggest Miliband. Perhaps I need to remember that I’m not who she needs to win over.
Interesting for strategists who might want to know what policies to focus on, but the wrong question for those who are interested in the likely outcome of a general election should it occur under present conditions.
The correct question for that is "which party would you vote for if there was a general election tomorrow?".
When that question is asked all recent opinion polls suggest that Labour would be the largest party but would fail to receive a majority and win the general election.
The latest seat prediction poll (Survation) places Labour 64 seats short of a majority.
I am sure that many people would be very happy with a Labour minority government, it would at least guarantee nothing too radical - things would plod along more or else as they are now and nothing would be done to upset the Tories too much. I guess it depends how much you are dissatisfied with the current situation. On the other hand the Tories could perhaps form a minority government with the DUP.
Still, there is no reason to assume an early general election.
I still don’t think we’ll ever see another majority Labour government in my lifetime. Scotland isn’t going to turn back to Labour to begin with. Well, they won’t be returning 40-50 seats for Labour like they have in the past, that’s for sure. Being the largest party still looks unlikely to me, but if it happens, yes, I would absolutely be happy with that. I can see every day what happens with a Conservative majority government… and I want them out.
sunak was empty - again - and pathetic; Reeves completely bossed him and comprehensively shredded his claims.
'Sharp' suit, I'm rishi and I'm here to help you - flash teeth, look serious and sincere - and I'm spewing out a tsunami of verbiage - pause, look down at notes, serious face - which no-one, including me, believes but the hard of thinking will be convinced because they don't know what I'm on about.
Brief smile, nod of head to acknowledge support from tories, serious face, sit down.
Complete bag of bollocks.
I still don’t think we’ll ever see another majority Labour government in my lifetime.
I have no idea of your personal medical risk factors but working on the possibility that you might still enjoy at least another half a dozen years before popping your clogs and being bereft of life, I assume that remark is based on an assessment of past circumstances and applying it to future unknown circumstances.
Politics in a multiparty representative democracy is very much self-leveling. The single most common reoccurring issue is dissatisfaction with the ruling party. It is extraordinarily unusual for one party to remain in power uninterrupted for any significant length of time. That level of satisfaction with any political party very rarely exists.
The idea that the British Conservative Party could achieve that level of permanent voter satisfaction indefinitely is frankly absurd imo.
The UK might well be compelled to endure an endless succession of crap governments for the rest of your lifetime, but unless you're pushing up daisies in the near future they won't all be from the same party.
And you can be pretty confident that will also apply just about all other countries in the world with multiparty democracy.
UK parliamentary democracy is based on Buggins' Turn.
Nothing to do with achievement, competency or any perception thereof.
Might be different parties elected but if the policies are the same then so what? Ask a Coventry binman or Julian Assange.
The idea that the British Conservative Party could achieve that level of permanent voter satisfaction indefinitely is frankly absurd imo.
Take an example where I live. It doesn't matter what the tories do, the people in my constituency will NEVER vote a party other than Tory. Apply that across a very high number of similar constituencies and doesn't look good for Labour.
Over the last 40+ years Labour had one period in charge but that was pre SNP. Without those SNP seats I can't see Labour ever getting a majority and as Labour and SNP won't grow up and join together that chance is never going to improve.
Sunak has delivered nothing at the worse possible time and Labour have offered up nothing of substance in return.
I don't know which is worse.
The Tories - I always expect them to behave as such. But Reeves is another stupid shadow chancellor driven by the economy nonesense of budgetary fiscal prudence and this is where it gets you.
The Ted Heath joke was terrible. And it missed because he wasn't a chancellor.
Nowhere.
Clive Lewis understands where we are.
https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1506766587532959746?t=7YpfV3dJpj2K9y4t7SNm0w&s=19
I don’t know which is worse.
The answer to this is the Tories. If our choices are going to be the Tories, or a slightly less shit version of the Tories, I'll still vote Labour
The answer to this is the Tories. If our choices are going to be the Tories, or a slightly less shit version of the Tories, I’ll still vote Labour
Yes but you expect the Tories to act like this. No surprises. Having an opposition that operate like this means the future isn't going to change much at all.
That's the despair.
The only hope is that historically the strike rate is higher under Labour governments. People will need to fight their corner and they will be opposed by Labour. Labour's role historically is to dissipate class struggle. It was Mario Suarez's 'socialist' government that handed the land back to the aristocracy after the 1974 revolution in Portugal. RatsRme has made it very clear he kisses the arse of the establishment.
Having an opposition that operate like this means the future isn’t going to change much at all.
Plus ca change. If you want revolution,I think we're in the wrong country. The options on offer appear to be shit or slightly less shit. I'll take slightly less shit thanks.
The only hope is that historically the strike rate is higher under Labour governments.
The Universities lecturers are on strike right now, No one gives a flying fig, it's not on anyone's radar, No one is in unions, I was talking about this to a chap at Tesco at the weekend. Kids that work there can't afford the dues, don't understand what a union is for. and the public get annoyed about strikes. His membership is all people born in the last century. If you're hanging a revolutionary hat on strikes you're going to be disappointed I think
I don’t know which is worse.
IMO it is always worse when Labour behave like Tories.
When Tories behave like Tories there is always still hope. When Labour behave like Tories there is not even hope left.
IMO it is always worse when Labour behave like Tories.
Yes. Aside from anything else it then shifts the "centre" ground to the right and we end up with mildly left wing ideas being portrayed as hard or far left.
When Tories behave like Tories there is always still hope.
You should put that in the "positivity" thread. Then again maybe you have...
Plus ca change. If you want revolution,I think we’re in the wrong country.
Which was why it was completely safe to hold a referendum on EU membership.
Plus ca change. If you want revolution,I think we’re in the wrong country.
This is the problem. Labelling moderate left of centre policies which tip the balance slightly back in the favour of working people as revolutionary only helps one side. Even if all of the Corbyn manifesto was implmented the rich would still be rich and we would still be ruled by billionaires. They would be a little less rich, but not by so much that they'd notice.
The latest opinion poll out today (Kantar) shows that Labour has lost its lead over the Tories for the first time since the beginning of December. Both Labour and the Tories are now tie on 36%
Voting intentions:
Lab 36% (-3)
Con 36% (+2)
L Dem 12% (nc)
Green 6% (nc)
SNP 3% (-1)
Reform UK (formerly Brexit party) 3% (+1)
UKIP 1% (nc)
Plaid Cymru<1% (-1)
Other 2% (nc)
To add to the problem for Labour is that we are now almost 6 months closer to the next general election than we were at the start of December. This is going in the wrong direction if the next general election is to be won by Labour.
If someone else was leader of the Labour Party right now you could very much expect to hear talk of a leadership challenge. However there appears to be widespread satisfaction with Starmer's leadership among the Parliamentary Labour Party.
I suspect the fact that Starmer isn't offering anything too radically different to the Tories is more important to them than winning next general election. No doubt being radically different to the Tories is quite a scary proposition for many of them.
Obviously the next opinion poll might well give a Labour lead again but for weeks now the Labour lead has been in single figures, often no more than 2 or 3 percent, so the tide is clearly turning in the Tories favour.
Still, perhaps the Tories will score more own goals in the future and Labour's clear inability to score against them won't matter quite so much.
Still, perhaps the Tories will score more own goals in the future and Labour’s clear inability to score against them won’t matter quite so much.
It might be interesting to see if Rishi has helped Labour or not in the next week or two post budget.
In fairness to SKS the news focus is (rightly) on Ukraine currently, overseas conflicts and "statesman" style presentation from leadership tends to benefit the governing party at the time in any poles. If it's any comfort, the current levels of distraction from Tory corruption/incompetence can't persist until the next election... Can they?
You could have been forgiven for thinking that the gangster capitalism of P&O Ferries/DP World might have sent a shudder through the employed classes which would have benefited Labour.
I suspect that many people remain unconvinced that Labour is offering anything radically different.
Opinion Polls and so on are useless outside of an election year, hell an election month, honestly you ask 100 tories if they'd vote tory just now you'd get half saying no, but you put them in a booth on election day, you'd be lucky to have 10% not voting tory.
We live in a country where the real fight for power will be in the centre, those who are far left and far right, they're not going to change their world or political views, it's those in the middle who may sway the next election, and for that, well Labour need to really work together, you can still see that Keir is looking for that centrist fight, with cover for the left, but you can still see the momentum element trying to bring the party to fighting further left.
Just look at what they are fighting against, Boris, a man who has gambled against any principle he had to get to where he is, even some of his family disowned him for that, then you have the Rishi's, Priti's, etc, who could stand up on a podium and back communism if it helped get them votes and was written for them by the party.
Dowden also made it clear that the Tories were planning to portray Starmer at the next election as “dull … uninspiring … and bereft of ideas”. He also sought to claim that “the Corbynistas are still there”, reviving the idea of Labour as a danger that was used in the 2019 campaign.
An excellent strategy imo.
The first part will be a piece of piss....“dull … uninspiring … and bereft of ideas”.
The second part will be equally easy as Starmer will undoubtedly help the Tories. To deflect criticism that Labour is a left-wing party Starmer will launch attacks against Labour Party members, something which he is extraordinarily good at.
He will simply re-enforce the Tory accusation by claiming that Labour has a problem with left-wingers who have no place in the party.
Starmer is clearly the Tories useful idiot in the Labour Party.
We live in a country where the real fight for power will be in the centre,
Which is why a solidly right-wing party keeps winning? (Even if the veneer is not to appear like that.)
And yet the Lib Dems at the last election did what? (Our supposedly centre ground)
The centre is not what you think it is.
The 'centre' in this country blindly supports the same free-market ideology that has delivered the failed economics we are currently enjoying.
The fight of power is between right-wing parties. Which is why Starmer has dragged the Labour party to the right.
It's a huge mistake as in the next few years we will absolutely need a left leaning party to correct this mess.
And yet the Lib Dems at the last election did what?
The Lib Dems don't really have a core left or right vote, so the centrist vote is pretty much their stomping ground. They were also coming off the back of a coalition that had destroyed their credibility with their own voters, and a lot of swing voters.
Labour have the left (mainly), Tories have the right (mainly), so how do you think Labour get in to power, they have to win those marginal seats, that predominantly sit in areas that aren't either left or right just now, they can't fight the same as they would in Liverpool, that's preaching to the converted, they need to work out how to swing those marginals to red.
that’s preaching to the converted, they need to work out how to swing those marginals to red.
They also need to retain those people who voted for them in the past. Which is the problem with the delusional centrists. They seem to think that since they are swing voters their opinions should be the only ones which count and those lefties should just provide the voting mass.
Unless the Labour Party's only raison d'etre is to win elections, and not change society, it needs to challenge the attitudes of those who embrace Tory values, not agree with them.
Unless the Labour Party’s only raison d’etre is to win elections
It doesnt even work for that. The ignore your core voters and chase the swing voters might work for a while but after an election or two those voters will start asking why exactly am I voting for them?
Something which can be seen with the plummeting vote during Blairs years and the subsequent damage when people started looking for an alternative since "they are all the same" regardless of whether the alternative was a bunch of lying arseholes.
Well yes, I wouldn't for a moment suggest that aping the Tories was an effective long term strategy for Labour.
Can we not just re-title this thread ‘Angry, Self-righteous Lefties in Furious and Angry Agreement with Each Other’ and just have done with it?
Put it out of its misery?
Just in case anyone might inadvertently happens upon it and expect anything other than that?
On the other hand it does stop you infecting other threads with your pious, sanctimonious virtue-signalling…
Actually… it doesn’t, does it? Nothing could ever prevent that
Solidarity comrades. Why do you want to be called Loretta, Stan etc etc
Nice contribution there binners. It's been a while since there's been any pics this thread, and an abundance of your favourite cliches/hyperbole.
Always brightens up a thread.
On the other hand it does stop you infecting other threads with your pious, sanctimonious virtue-signalling…
Cheers for that latest regurgitation of the daily hates current moronic attack lines. I am disappointed you missed out woke though.
Now do you have anything useful to contribute beyond your hatred of anything slightly to the left of Farage which doesnt meet your primary school standards?
I wouldn’t for a moment suggest that aping the Tories was an effective long term strategy for Labour.
The really depressing thing is some people think it is a equally good idea to drag the tories to the "left" (it is really messy to try and balance "left" and "right" and "social" vs "economic") on certain issues and then wonder why we have huge chunks of the country vulnerable to farage and co.
Whilst generally I dont agree with traditional tory values I can see a point to them. The country is best served by having a decent range of political viewpoints so that things can be balanced out. Sadly there does seem to be some who think because swing voters move elections the narrow policies which appeal to them should be the only ones which count.
Now do you have anything useful to contribute......
Do you think if he had he would be posting pics from a 1970s British comedy film?
sanctimonious virtue-signalling…
See above. As long as people who are supposedly on the left portray policies which help working people as either extreme or pointless then people will believe it. If politicians, activists and campaigners can’t stand up for their principles then no one will support them.
We can do much better than this dystopian billionaires playground, but we have to believe in it.
We can do much better than this dystopian billionaires playground, but we have to believe in it.
And by we you mean all the tories who keep voting in the tory party because that is what they want?
And by we you mean all the tories who keep voting in the tory party because that is what they want?
Well obviously not. It seems fairly clear to me that by "we" Daz doesn't mean the Tories.
I understood him to mean that we can build an alternative society to one which is designed to serve the needs of billionaires, but that the way to achieve this isn't by agreeing with the Tories and condemning an alternative vision.
He is obviously suggesting that it requires a commitment and belief. It requires conviction.
I have no idea why you thought "we" meant the Tories.
And it's a valid point imo. The type of person who is driven to seek high office these days seems to be motivated primarily by a desire for personal fulfillment rather than any desire to change society.
It is very hard to get the feeling that Starmer believes in anything, other than he would quite like to be Prime Minister.
The point was that we includes the whole country as that is how voting works, so saying we can do better means that we all need to believe/want whatever dazh seems to think is a better solution.
The problem is we don't think that or want that (or 50%+ of we don't). Try and think about it in a way that just because you think it is right doesn't mean everyone else does. Yes they are clearly all wrong...
sanctimonious virtue-signalling…
AKA giving a crap about other people. I can see why you don't like it.
When Stalin was having people murdered in the hundred of thousands, it wasn't uncommon for the victims to shout out phrases like "long live Stalin" so strong was the brainwashing to his greatness they couldn't believe it was him that was causing their suffering.
We don't have an individual dictator that has the country brainwashed, we have a narrative and establishment that has. That can't be changed if the party that is meant to represent the working majority just kowtows to the same establishment narrative that gives all the power to the billionaires and pretends to throw crumbs from the table to the majority as reform.
Maybe the American belief in their health care system would be a less extreme example than Stalanist Russia, that people (as a group) don't vote for their own good, when they are fed a constant establishment lie. A lie that as outsiders we can see as clear as day.
It is very hard to get the feeling that Starmer believes in anything, other than he would quite like to be Prime Minister.
Well, you don't get to achieve anything unless you are, so I'd hope that anybody with any convictions at all strives with everything to become PM.
Try and think about it in a way that just because you think it is right doesn’t mean everyone else does.
I think you'll find that everyone who doesn't agree is an unthinking drone, a zombified lackey of the establishment, incapable of forming their own opinions as they need their thoughts spoon-fed to them by Rupert Murdoch and the MSM.
Thats right, isn't it?
....so I’d hope that anybody with any convictions at all strives with everything to become PM.
You think Starmer is driven by conviction?
If so I think that probably puts you at odds with most voters. Most voters appear to be completely uninspired by Starmer and appear to have no idea what he is offering them.
Which is presumably why the Guardian article mentioned :
Dowden also made it clear that the Tories were planning to portray Starmer at the next election as “dull … uninspiring … and bereft of ideas”.
e problem with the delusional centrists. They seem to think that since they are swing voters their opinions should be the only ones which count and those lefties should just provide the voting mass.
In a PR system folks can vote for parties of the left (which I'd vote for), greens (who I might vote for), and far right parties. Coalitions will be put together usually led by a centre right or centre left party. And those on the edge of the spectrum complain that coalitions tend to the centre, and their parties will never hold the balance, their votes count for less. They're wrong.
Our fptp system actually favours more polar outcomes - see our current government. To get a labour or let's face it labour led government into power in this country you need to assemble your coalition before the election. Labour is a coalition and needs the centre as well as the left. (It also needs some agreements with the lib dems, greens, scot nats but that's another topic.)
Whatever, the balance is by definition towards the centre.
We can do much better than this dystopian billionaires playground, but we have to believe in it.
I'd say the UK is pretty far down that list, we're almost getting into the lizard people territory with the way the rich are made out to be in this (and other) threads.
As others state, Starmer, and Labour have to get in to power to change anything, and change happens slowly if they do, because as a ruling party, they still have the mandate to represent the nations interests and concerns, that's all of the nation, not just the 36% or so who voted for them, even if they have the loudest voice.
He is obviously suggesting that it requires a commitment and belief. It requires conviction.
Indeed. The starting point to creating an alternative to our current shitshow of a country is for someone to present an alternative, argue the case for it, and stand behind the principles on which it is founded. It doesn't need everyone in the country to believe, but it does require the people presenting it to do so. This idea that labour can sneak into govt by pretending not to be labour is stupid. Why would anyone vote for tory impersonators when they can vote for the real thing?
There's also the issue of political courage. People want to be lead. They want someone to step up and fight for their interests. But they're not going to get behind someone who doesn't have the courage of their convictions, and Starmer doesn't give anyone the impression that he has the courage or the appetite to fight for working people. He's on the wrong side basically, and people can see it very clearly.
Whatever, the balance is by definition towards the centre.
Only if you confuse the normal definition of "centre" with the use in political terms.
If the "centre" really was the majority then the libdems would walk it every election.
The "centre" are a minority compared to those further to the left or right. If, as per new labour, you prioritise them above all else a)you end up with a large number of your core vote looking for alternatives and b)generally shifting the "centre" towards the other side.
Yup, you need a coalition to govern the UK. Our FPTP system hides that, by making it almost essential for a coalition to occur within a party (and for a coalition of voters to back that party).
we’re almost getting into the lizard people territory with the way the rich are made out to be in this (and other) threads.
Are you taking the piss? 800 people have just been fired with no notice and replaced by what amounts to slave labour. The richest few percent have almost doubled their wealth in the past couple of years when everyone else has seen their incomes eroded or wiped out completely thanks to covid. The tax burden on working people has increased but the rich are paying less. Millions of people need to go to food banks to feed their families and homelessness is skyrocketing. This is all happening for a reason, and it's not an accident.
You think Starmer is driven by conviction?
Not what I said. Again, stop making stuff up to start arguments.
Are you taking the piss? 800 people have just been fired with no notice and replaced by what amounts to slave labour. The richest few percent have almost doubled their wealth in the past couple of years when everyone else has seen their incomes eroded or wiped out completely thanks to covid. The tax burden on working people has increased but the rich are paying less. Millions of people need to go to food banks to feed their families and homelessness is skyrocketing. This is all happening for a reason, and it’s not an accident.
You're doing soapbox shouting with this stuff, nothing is any different today than it was last century, or the century before, no matter the government in charge, 'the rich' is just a generic statement, without any definition, what are you on about with the rich, is it billionaires, millionaires, people who earn more than 50k a year, someone who drives a BMW, what is it?
Just going on about dystopian billionaires playgrounds when you see the state of the old soviet union, or the middle east, or several other places in the world is embarrassing, could the UK be better, yes, could it be fairer, yes, but is it the worst shitshow, not even close.
could the UK be better, yes, could it be fairer, yes, but is it the worst shitshow, not even close.
You seem to be completely unaware or wilfully ignorant of the enormous levels of hardship and deprivation in this country. It's not even relative poverty any more, it's absolute. This in a supposedly developed modern western economy. If you don't think there's a problem then you really need to get out more and educate yourself.
You seem to be completely unaware or wilfully ignorant of the enormous levels of hardship and deprivation in this country. It’s not even relative poverty any more, it’s absolute. This in a supposedly developed modern western economy. If you don’t think there’s a problem then you really need to get out more and educate yourself.
You probably need to do a little review around the world to really see what 'enormous' levels of hardship and deprivation actually looks like because the UK aren't even in the top 10 for that, as stated, can the UK do better, yes, but it can also do a hell of a lot worse.
Again, stop making stuff up to start arguments.
I don't think this thread needs anyone to make anything up to start an argument.
It seems to happen with very little effort.
Edit : I'm glad you agree that Starmer isn't driven by commitment btw. It's good to agree about stuff.
You probably need to do a little review around the world to really see what ‘enormous’ levels of hardship and deprivation actually looks like
In other words, stop whining you pathetic plebs and thank your lucky stars you're not starving to death or having bombs dropped on you. 🙄
In other words, stop whining you pathetic plebs and thank your lucky stars you’re not starving to death or having bombs dropped on you. 🙄
Of course, the illuminati are currently sat round a table, twirling their moustaches and plotting on how to kill off the minions
Of course, the illuminati are currently sat round a table
No, it's a tory government sat round the cabinet table plotting how to keep their billionaire and multimillionaire friends rich whilst we plebs pay the taxes to keep the lights on. The tragedy is that the parliamentary labour party would do no different.