A materialist analysis focuses on the relations of production, the expropriation of surplus value and the consequent accumulation of capital, not on people's shopping bags. Having said that, I'm always up for a bit of champagne socialism.
We’re not arguing
Ha ha! 😀 Very, very good. You really are much funnier than that other bloke.
Christ, you’re not very good at this, are you?
Oh I'm brilliant. You're the one with your knickers in a twist, all wound up and hurling thinly veiled insults around. Without actually understanding things. Such as irony. 😉
not on people’s shopping bags
Where do you think the money goes? This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it's still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they'd rather not be doing, in the interests of some 'greater good'. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it's the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You're banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It's bloody stupid.
The question for labour and the left shouldn’t be how do we increase incomes so people can consume more, but how do we enable people to work less and enjoy life more whilst living securely and sustainably.
Tough message to sell to many many folk who're still working multiple fragile jobs to make ends meet. Those folk do want more money to spend on more crap, they need more money just to live.
This is my problem, because marxist economic theory (and please save the mansplainy lessons, I know what it is) is not much different to capitalism in that it’s still assumes people will work, mostly in shit, unfulfilling, boring jobs that they’d rather not be doing, in the interests of some ‘greater good’. For capitalists that greater good is the power and wealth of a small elite, for socialists it’s the state and the things it can provide. Both these viewpoints are redundant in a world where the work we do, and the things we consume as a result threaten our very existence. You’re banging on about class warfare and materialism when the rock on which we all live is dying. It’s bloody stupid.
Hmm. An interesting analysis. The difference being, however, that Socialism does at least call for a better society for ALL, rather than just for an elite few. Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them. The main problem with the current capitalist system, is that it helps perpetuate that horrible class system you keep wanting to not talk about, as it reinforces the notion of people divided in terms of socioeconomic classes. I suppose a 'better' system would be where we all share the nasty jobs more equally; maybe some bankers and Guardian editors and journos could roll their sleeves up and work digging the roads, or emptying the bins, or perhaps just helping clean their own ****ing offices. Just an idea...
Without actually understanding things.
As you seem to be having trouble, let me help:
plagiarism
[ˈplājəˌrizəm]
NOUN
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.
"there were accusations of plagiarism" ·
I thought everyone had a job as an Instagram influencer nowadays?
I'm currently working on my profile, Binners. Trying to get loads of shots of myself in places like Gail's (it's like Greggs, only posh and with actual food), Divertimenti and Yotam Ottolenghi's little place on Upper St. It's a hard life, but I do it for the millions out there who need inspiration and positive reinforcement.
As you seem to be having trouble
No I'm not having trouble. But thanks anyway. That's very kind of you.
No I’m not having trouble. But thanks anyway.
Yes, I can see how an unsubstantiated accusation of plagiarism is clear evidence of that. But you do have form for making stuff up, so perhaps you can't help it.
Lol! Well done. Very good. Thanks for calling.:D
Stay on the line, and our producer will get your details to get you that book token.
Hey, no worries! How's the next fiction coming along?
it’s like Greggs, only posh and with actual food),
You do know that Gregg's sell salads? You don't have to buy baked goods.
Or is it just snobbery?
You do know that Gregg’s sell salads? You don’t have to buy baked goods.
I've only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
I Saw No Salads.
why not make insinuations about my mental health? Seems that is a legitimate area for comedy, after all
To be clear, I made no mention of your mental health and wouldn't be qualified to make a comment but sure you are fine if a touch over dramatic about everything that anyone says.
Apologies for making a joke that you were on something as it was clearly not taken as such.
I’ve only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
You don't know what you're missing...
Salads are massively overrated IMHO
I’ve only ever been in two Greggs; one in Newcastle, and one somewhere else.
I Saw No Salads.
When did you go, 10 years ago? Or had they just sold them all? Or did you have something over your head so people couldn't see you slumming it?
If nothing else Gregg's should get an award for completely disrupting the motorway service station food racket.
Fact is that there are many boring, unfulfilling jobs. The vast majority of them, probably. Someone has to do them.
And that's why this century will be very different to the last. Most of these boring unfulfilling or pointless jobs will either be automated or could be done away with completely. Socialism doesn't want that though, because it's obsessed with the concept of work and production. Yes we need to provide people with the means to support themselves and their family and live a decent quality of life, but the answer to that isn't making them work 12 hours a day so that they can buy shit they don't really need. We've got to come up with a different way of organising society where endless consumption and work are not the primary goals in life, and labour and other left wing parties are the only ones who are going to do that.
We’ve got to come up with a different way of organising society where endless consumption and work are the primary activities in life, and labour and other left wing parties are the only ones who are going to do that.
Are they? I have never seen it proposed and I can never see it working as much as I would love to.
Are they?
No they're not, and that's the problem. If you listen to Starmer and those around him they're completely hooked on the blue labour 'dignity of work' bollocks. For most people there is no real dignity in work or fulfillment beyond earning money. They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It's the whole 'work hard, play hard' ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
For most people there is no real dignity in work or fulfilment beyond earning money. They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It’s the whole ‘work hard, play hard’ ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
I have to say that this post, of all of them, resonates with me 100%, particularly the mental health aspect.
I do not know what the answer is. I'm not sure any one person does.
Such a shame that so much effort in these discussions comes back to the 'my dad's harder than your dad' or 'my dicks bigger than you dick' need to win. Put that effort into changing society and we might just make a change worth making? Just a thought. Expecting incineration imminently...
They compensate the amount of their lives they waste working buy buying stuff and going on holidays etc. It’s the whole ‘work hard, play hard’ ethos which results in unsustainable consumption and massive mental health problems.
And if a lot of people enjoy going on holiday, buying bikes to ride etc,. how do you convince them they should give that up and do whatever the alternative is?
How does the alternative work by the way as sounds like a nice dream but what does it look like in practice where nobody works but everyone has enough food, housing etc,. ?
how do you convince them they should give that up and do whatever the alternative is?
Why on earth would they have to give those up just because people worked a bit less?
what does it look like in practice where nobody works but everyone has enough food, housing etc,. ?
Who said nobody works? I'm talking about reducing the amount of work we do and eliminating pointless work. Those two things would solve most problems we have in our society. I know you struggle to imagine a world where anything is different to how it is now, but it's really not a great leap of the imagination to see how we could provide everyone with the basic means of life. We almost do it now through benefits etc but can't bring ourselves to do it properly because we're constrained by our stupid hangups about work ethic etc.
can’t bring ourselves to do it properly because we’re constrained by our stupid hangups about work ethic etc
I blame religion.
[ runs away ]
I’m talking about reducing the amount of work we do and eliminating pointless work. Those two things would solve most problems we have in our society. I know you struggle to imagine a world where anything is different to how it is now, but it’s really not a great leap of the imagination to see how we could provide everyone with the basic means of life. We almost do it now through benefits etc
So no people do pointless work and those doing non-pointless work do a reduced amount (how much reduced?) but can still go on holidays, buy bikes etc,.
Can you explain how that actually works?
It works pretty much the way it does now. Just less of it with a universal basic income to provide the basics for everyone. You really are the life and soul of the party aren’t you?
Just a healthy sceptic. An ideal opportunity to practise the arguments needed for the long hard work towards the general public excepting the idea. I’m won over, but am under no illusion just how resistant most Brits will be do it. We really need a separate UBI type thread, it pops up so often in this thread.
And that’s why this century will be very different to the last. Most of these boring unfulfilling or pointless jobs will either be automated or could be done away with completely.
Not really
There will still be refuse operatives, carers, people stacking shelves, etc etc not sure how you are automating the coffee from the machine to the table in that small cafe that does those really good bagels etc etc
'Anneliese Dodds 💙
@AnnelieseDodds
· 13h
Labour's new Stronger Together roadmap will bring Britain together for:
1⃣Better jobs and work
2⃣A green and digital future
3⃣Safe, secure communities
4⃣Public services that work
5⃣A future where families come first
6⃣Britain in the world
Let's build a future to be proud of'
There you have the future even though I'm not really sure what it all means.
As someone who has had a few low paid jobs I can say I have found dignity/ pleasure/ camararderie in those jobs.
Cleaning toilets is not going to be automated any time soon nor many other low paid jobs I'm afraid. People have been thinking they would be since the 50s.
My thinking is that dignity/ pleasure in your work is more connected to your mental health than the job itself.
Yes Labour should be big picture but also can we get a pay rise for nurses please? And for carers?
Yes Labour should be big picture but also can we get a pay rise for nurses please? And for carers?
Absolutely. There's a simple solution to how you get people to do the rubbish jobs. Pay them a lot more. Under a system such as UBI, crap but necessary jobs will be much better paying than they are now, otherwise no one will do them. Currently wages are linked to skills and education, when really they should be linked to social utility and value. Nurses and carers would be paid a lot more under a UBI system.
UBI and a shorter working week will turn the economy on it's head. Those in currently poorly paid jobs will have to be paid a lot more, those in fulfilling jobs and careers who enjoy them can carry on doing so, those who want to work 80 hours a week for a bank to make a million will still be able to do so, and those who can't work or don't want to will be able to do just that. All we need to do is abandon the stupid concept of work being virtuous and necessary.
Massive Tory majority in Chesham and Amersham overturned, and the hapless Starmy Army come in at fourth behind the Greens. There's subversion in the suburbs, the peasants are revolting and they now face a privet hedge as well as a red wall.
In Chesham and Amersham
2010 Labour 2492 votes (5.6%) Brown
2015 Labour 6712 votes (12.7%) Milliband
2017 Labour 11374 votes (20.6%) Corbyn
2019 Labour 7166 votes (12.9%) Corbyn
2021 Labour 622 votes (1.6%) Starmer
Massively tactical voting though.
So that's all right then, no-one needs to take responsibility.
Massive Tory majority in Chesham and Amersham overturned
Great news.
Lib Dems threw everything at it, and the Green vote share also dropped.
I really wouldn’t read too much into a drop of vote share in a seat where it was clear to everyone that tactical voting was the only was to GTTO and even then it was a stretch.
Batley and Spen might be a better test; assuming the Kipper vote goes Tory it could be close.
It wasn’t “a stretch”, it was a routing. It was something that seemed unlikely though, I’ll give you that.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1405690225263775748?s=21
More of this please. I really don’t want to wait ‘till I’m 90 for an elusive Labour majority government, I want fewer Conservative MPs as fast as possible… and preferably that party to also change course. I want decent (even if I disagree with them) Tory MPs sitting on the opposition benches staring at a Labour PM flanked with ministers from other parties.
@kelvin Yes, you’re right. It was a rout. As you say though, it looked like a stretch before.
I really wouldn’t read too much into a drop of vote share in a seat where it was clear to everyone that tactical voting was the only was to GTTO and even then it was a stretch.
Yes, but that was also the case in the previous elections for this seat. Does anyone know if Labour ran a serious campaign, or was it a paper candidate?
Does anyone know if Labour ran a serious campaign, or was it a paper candidate?
I’ve seen reports of Labour canvassers urging people to vote LD. I can imagine Green doing the same as well. How come this discussion is on the Kier Starmer thread rather than the thread dedicated to the leader of the party who were just stomped on in their heartland?
@ransos Not sure. Angela Rayner was there if the videos are to be believed but there’s a difference between running a serious campaign and creating the impression of one.
I really don’t care how Labour performed in this seat. Just as I don’t care if the LibDems lose their deposit in a Tory/Labour marginal seat where they’ve been coming fourth at recent elections. The voters need to wise up and play the system.
I live in Amersham (well Hyde Heath, but let's not split hairs). LD are always second to Conservatives in parliamentary elections (until now). Labour and Green are always quite a long way behind.
I've had multiple LD canvassers, loads of LD literature (flyers, newspapers). Conservative canvassers came round once just for a leaflet drop. Labour came round once, asked me who I was going to vote for - certainly didn't suggest I vote LD, seemed disappointed but not surprised when I told her I'd already voted LD as best chance of winning.
I wouldn't read anything into it re Labour - this was always about "anyone but the Conservatives"
