Or they can go back and say it doesnt work and why.
Well, they won't be able to under dazh's idea, as he's saying change democracy to make them unable to do what they want when they get elected. So, you either want to current situation to continue, (ie they can change their minds) or you agree that dazh's idea is a bad one
Or possibly just not put forward random crap in the first place without thinking it through?
Do you think that the Tories haven't road tested how voters think about the death penalty? because it plays well with their supporters.
So, you either want to current situation to continue, (ie they can change their minds) or you agree that dazh’s idea is a bad one
It's hardly an either/or binary scenario is it? There are loads of ways of making MPs more accountable and transparent other than giving them total power or removing it completely. Do you disagree that voters should be given more (a lot more IMO) power over decisions made in their name?
There’s nothing remotely ‘leftwing’ or even ‘centrist’ about 90% of what they want to do.
Whatever happened to 'ignore what they say and look at what they do'? By any measure Boris's government has been the most leftwing/socialist since 1945. Granted covid has been a major factor in that but not all of it. I agree the 'levelling up' agenda is smoke and mirrors, but ultimately more investment and activity is going into areas which voted tory than was previously done by the pre-Boris tories or labour.
Do you disagree that voters should be given more (a lot more IMO) power over decisions made in their name?
That's a bit of an abstract question which could be phrased as "do you favour direct over representative democracy?" Or "would you prefer MPs to be delegates rather than representatives?" I'd say probably not, unless you've a good idea to show how this works in practice. But then I like government to be boring and not driven by populism.
The policies he nicked off Ed represent a small/tiny proportion of the overall direction of travel
Not according to the Guardian's editorial. They reckon, quote :
"The country we are living in owes as much to Mr Miliband’s leftwing economics as it does to Mr Johnson’s social conservatism."
So according to the Guardian we owe much to Mr Miliband's leftwing economics.
That sounds pretty big to me, unless you think economics is a very small part of "the overall travel of direction"?
Have you read that particular Guardian editorial binners? I assumed you had as I know that you like the Guardian to map out your political views for you.
In case you missed it here it is again as it's a fairly important subject - you need to know whether or not to support Tory economic policy, specially as in some cases, such as corporation tax, it can be to the left of Keir Starmer.
Do you disagree that voters should be given more (a lot more IMO) power over decisions made in their name?
Yes they probably should. I don't think currently we have a country that could either wants that or could achieve it in any meaningful way.
Yeah, come on Binners... get justifying everything written in the Guardian and Observer papers, because you're the editor... or something... 🤷🏻
Do you disagree that voters should be given more (a lot more IMO) power over decisions made in their name?
Absolutely. Including the chance to change their minds. Manifestos can not be immutable. Currently politicians need to be able to adapt to events, experience, knowledge and the resolving of clashes between policies and having to work with the rest of the world, not just the voters here. Should shifts in policies be put back to the voters? Maybe. Should the voters be able to put a stop to, or revise, policies they previously voted for based on... events, experience, clashes between policies and having to work with the rest of the world? Sounds good.
I’d say probably not, unless you’ve a good idea to show how this works in practice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria
..and before someone replies 'so you want us to be like Syria', no I don't. The example of Rojava shows that it is possible to operate a democratic, delegatory decision making process at large scales whilst avoiding populism or the 'tyranny of the majority'.
No Kelvin not everything, just this editorial on quite an important issue.
Not because binners is the editor but because he is an outspoken supporter of the Guardian's political stance.
In fact the Guardian is so important to binners that he used to sit and read it in a pub full of UKIP supporters. He doesn't do that anymore though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria
/blockquote>Agreed we could hear more about Kurdistan as a positive middle east story, on the Iraqi side of the border too. Though Erdoğan's Turkey is a threat. I worked in Turkey for a short time and had friends who got involved in documenting what was going on in the south east, continuing in London with more welfare and immigration/asylum work. Whatever, there's a culture that's quite different to perceptions of that part of the world. Not convinced about the applicability of that model of government here though, where we're actually allowed to have a government.
Not convinced about the applicability of that model of government here though, where we’re actually allowed to have a government.
As above I offered that example only to support the concept of how more delegatory decision making can work and be benefical to democracy, not as a 'we should have a revolution too' example.
The Swiss example is useful as well. But does need an understanding that constant revision of policies, and voting on them again and again, is required, and not 'undemocratic'.
Can you imagine what this country would be like with regular public referenda?
The death penalty, public floggings, workhouses and the reintroduction of bonded slavery
The death penalty, public floggings, workhouses and the reintroduction of bonded slavery
You really shouldn't judge everyone by the standards of the Rose and Crown regulars. I fear that experience has clouded your opinion somewhat 🙂
Really? Don't look at polling on the death penalty then...
Batley and Spen anyone?
Make or break for Starmzy?
I think it could be.
(Although I do appreciate leaders don't give in as quick as David Cameron thinks they should.)
Support from the Muslim community falling off a cliff.
If Starmer's whole mission was to destroy the Labour party and what it stands for - he's damn good at it.
What's the question? They have a great candidate. It absolutely could still be loss. Starmer absolutely partly to blame for that. No, a loss won't mean he stands down, or is pushed aside, immediately after.
No, a loss won’t mean he stands down, or is pushed aside, immediately after
You're probably right.
But this is likely to be front and centre news and hard to dodge.
A bit of Starmer bashing will be a good distraction for all the news outlets, and us.
rone
Free MemberMake or break for Starmzy?
Already happened tbh. Either way this won't make much difference.
Really? Don’t look at polling on the death penalty then…
I am truly amazed that support for the death penalty in terrorism and child murder cases is so low, the country has gone soft!
And opposition to the death penalty in all murder cases is opposed by a very large margin :
Only a third of people support its reintroduction in all murder cases??Wow, I had no idea that public opinion on the issue had progressed so much.
That's how you would reintroduce the death penalty, if we had direct democracy here. Propose it for the most heinous emotive crimes. It would be introduced then, as Binners pointed out. It's not just the regulars in the pub you're obsessing about that would vote for it, half the country voters already would... and after a period of well directed campaigning, you'd get a fair few more to. 52% on the day of the vote... easily.
It'll be interesting to see if when Boris cancels his self-proclaimed 'Freedom Day' (FFS?!) being cancelled by at least a month the population are ready to apportion it to government incompetence yet?
Do you even think he'll do a press conference? He usually sends a minion like Little Matty when theres bad news to be had
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1404381126454546432?s=20
Even if they do, they'll still support Johnson and back him. They don't mind incompetence, as long as it's his easy going positive messaging amiable "on their side" incompetence. Any negative effects on their lives will be met with... "imagine how much worse it would be if Labour were in government... that Starmer wants us to close the schools and survive on a diet of quinoa".
Do you even think he’ll do a press conference? He usually sends a minion like Little Matty when theres bad news to be had
He is doing the press conference at 6pm but sending Matty to the commons to explain it there later.
Support from the Muslim community falling off a cliff.
Maybe there is actually a cost to full-on support of Israel.
That’s how you would reintroduce the death penalty, if we had direct democracy here. Propose it for the most heinous emotive crimes. It would be introduced then, as Binners pointed out.
Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.
So binners should go back to the Rose and Crown and use his eloquent skills in political debate (failing that draw pictures for them)
The death penalty is a good example of this. Often the "string em up" comments are a knee-jerk reaction and when people give the topic more thought they generally take a more sensible stance.
I assume that the very low level of support for the reintroduction of the death penalty these days is due to many years of people hearing the arguments against it.
I don't support direct democracy btw.
Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.
Then how do you explain Brexit, in all it's 'send them back' glory?
More feebleness on LBC:
Ernie... you're mixing up what people will say to you during a reasoned conversation, and how they would vote given a chance. Don't worry, you're in good company there, we all do it. It's one of the reasons voting patterns often seem so far from daily lived experiences.
DrJ... how do you want Starmer to answer questions like that on Brexit? In a way that means you and I can agree with him (I find it hard not just to say "truthfully") or in a way that tries to avoid being continually seen as "on the side of the EU" rather than "standing up for Britain"?
Then how do you explain Brexit, in all it’s ‘send them back’ glory?
It's interesting that you should ask that because of course brexit is an issue that can't be discussed on stw. Any attempt to do so is met with an avalanche of knee-jerk reactions...."brexit supporters are all racist, stupid, uneducated, right wing" And that's just the polite comment, if you want more hate-filled rhetoric go over to the brexit thread. Which btw I find fascinating.
Actually in my experience when you engage in debate with people they generally become much more liberal and lefty than you might imagine.
Don't engage with anyone in the New Forest as I feel you may be disappointed.
“brexit supporters are all racist, stupid, uneducated, right wing”
Who said that?
DrJ… how do you want Starmer to answer questions like that on Brexit?
I'd have hoped he was a crafty enough politician to not get sucked into a question about fixing Johnson's mess. He was doing fine for a while, and then he started wittering on about how the EU has to compromise. It just makes him look like he has no principles.
If anyone needed any confirmation of the lack of energy or ideas at the top of the labour party, look no further. I'm sure the tories will be shitting themselves.
https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1404709533474344963?s=20
The Labour party have to try hard to get this extension to stick to the government (if they don't, you can be sure the voters will be blaming Labour for it). Teflon coated Johnson and Sunak seem to have a gift for causing problems and passing the blame for the measures they cause to be introduced onto Labour. Remember that Starmer pub mess in Bath, where he was the target taking the flak for government introduced measures lasting far too long because of government decisions? That'll keep happening if Labour don't actively try and stick the blame where it is due.
The Labour party have to try hard
Do you define 'try hard' as sending Nick Thomas-who-the-hell-is-he out to do an anonymous speech at 9.30am which no one will watch or report?
No, but I've heard Starmer and other Labour MPs on several radio stations in the last 24 hours making the same point. I think they have little chance of success, to be honest. Good luck to them.
That’ll keep happening if Labour don’t actively try and stick the blame where it is due.
That ship sailed months ago.
Yeah, I think they have next to no chance of getting any blame to stick to Johnson or his team (apart from the sacrificial Hancock, perhaps). Having truth on your side is no help these days.
https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1404822229939113989?s=21
If you keep saying the same thing on a public forum, then it would seem fairly obvious that you are trying to convince others of your point of view.
So, what exactly are you doing, returning to this then? Trying to prove something?
As for the rest of it, you are presenting your opinion as fact. It isn’t.
It is, and I've already explained why, several times now, with evidence. You've either not seen it, or deliberately ignored it. Either way, the facts are there. I have challenged anyone to prove otherwise, and unsurprisingly, no one has. I wonder why? Oh; that's right; because it was only ever imagined by yourself and others.
In my opinion, you are wrong for the reasons already set out, so it’s a pity that you continue to be so “bone-headed”, as you put it.
You've actually unwittingly shown just how such slurs and insinuations can be weaponised against those with differing points of view. You've got caught up in the false narrative, as peddled by those with an agenda against the left, and fallen into the trap of needing to appear righteous. Except that that righteousness is false; what you're actually doing, is perpetuating the very division that those who wish to defame the left, and ultimately to undermine democracy, wish to see happening. Cancel culture, writ large. But the damage caused by this is tremendous; as we've seen with the Brexit debate, such divisions sow hate and create such a toxic environment, that we all lose sight of what's really happening. And whilst Labour destroys itself from within, so the tories just gain more power. So yes; focussing on how the elite of the party is courting the interests of the wealthy, rather than listening to the electorate, is definitely something that Starmer etc want to stamp down on. Trouble is, the genie is out of the bottle now.
Morning Comrade.
Hows the revolution progressing?
Well, that's a fiver won. Easy money. Thanks Binners. 😀
You’ve actually unwittingly shown just how such slurs and insinuations can be weaponised against those with differing points of view. You’ve got caught up in the false narrative, as peddled by those with an agenda against the left, and fallen into the trap of needing to appear righteous.
I haven't fallen for anything. I read the same words you did, and reached a different conclusion. How ever much you choose to carry on bleating about how beastly everyone is being, this is about interpretation and not about fact. My interpretation is that you're using an opportunity to play the victim as a way of deflecting from your use of an anti-semitic trope.
What makes a 50 year old public school Footlights-derived sketch comedy which sneared at all the usual targets (gays, socialists, the working class) any sort of contribution to discussion?
