Why does the party leader also have to lead the parliamentary party in Westminster? Just thinking out loud... but Starmer is (only?) good at the dispatch box... why not keep him there and have an "outside the Westminster talking shop" party leader over the course of the rest of this parliamentary term, building towards the next election. Don't say party rules, because the party rules aren't working.
Why does the party leader also have to lead the parliamentary party in Westminster?
Because the tories would say that labour don’t even trust their leader to be an MP and by extension PM.
Its not some re-hashed form of Corbynism, that’s for sure
That's because there's no such thing as Corbynism in reality.
It's Democratic Socialism, and that's the party.
This is a popularity contest with years of the working class fermenting to a Brexit explosion - amidst the debris of under-investment and neglect. Nothing more.
Labour need to have a popular leader who's a strong character, and is willing to tackle spending and investment head-on in these areas of neglect. Tackle the lies of the Tories when it comes to spending etc.
I'm suggesting Clive Lewis as the best compromise (despite remainer credentials.)
Although he didn't do so well last time but I think his grasp of economics seem strong and he's a good talker. And not a bloody Sir in a suit. On the back of that the electorate don't give a hoot about PMQS.
As an observation - I don't think people individually care about the NHS as much as we collectively think we do. Not sure how that is tackled but you've only got to see Julia Hartley Spewers feeds ... Talk to your neighbors.
Because the tories would say that labour don’t even trust their leader to be an MP and by extension PM.
Who cares? From outside parliament, a leader could berate them all, and really paint themselves as an agent of change, who'll go in there after the next election to make the London based political system face outwards, towards the whole of the UK. Federal system, more regionalism, the whole shebang. People are voting in new Tory MPs for... "change" for gods sake, while berating Starmer for being too establishment, despite being powerless and in opposition. None of the current Labour MPs has any chance of being PM before the next election, the leader only needs to be an MP after a Labour government is elected.
Just hand waving and talking out loud... not suggesting it's the approach to take.
who’ll go in there after the next election to make the London based political system face outwards
So you think a labour leader should focus on campaigning against labour's one true stronghold? I think there is definitely an argument for a 'leader in the north', and also northern focused policies. The obvious answer to that is devolution for the north, with a northern assembly which could be led by Burnham. I would go for that.
So you think a labour leader should focus on campaigning against labour’s one true stronghold?
Did I say that?
London already has regional autonomy well beyond that of any other English region... perhaps preposing more of that, for the rest of country, from a starting position of being outside Westminster, isn't such a crazy idea.
EDIT: You've edited your post to say something different, that I broadly agree with. Connecting that change to getting a Labour government elected to create that change (and other probably more pressing ones) is a tough one though. Without getting power in Westminster, there's is a limit to any real devolution that will happen.
isn’t such a crazy idea.
It's an entirely sensible, but also quitie revolutionary idea. Essentially get rid of the UK parliament and replace it with devolved regional parliaments with massively expanded powers to raise taxes, set budgets and borrow. Oversee it with a Uk-wide senate made up of directly elected non-party affiliated representatives. It would be a new federal UK of regional states.
I genuinely haven’t a clue how labour counter this narrative.
Well actually challenging it would be a starting point as opposed to the current approach which is to go for a watered down version which implicitly accepts the tories claims.
An obvious starting point would be to challenge the flag waving as a substitute for actual patriotism. Ask what is patriotic about dressing your mistress in a Union Jack whilst funnelling cash to her.
Ask why they want schools to fly a flag but wont pay for the kids to be properly fed.
An obvious starting point would be to challenge the flag waving as a substitute for actual patriotism.
I couldn't agree more, but how? Once again we're back into the uncomfortable reality that a large number of people in our new post-Brexit world are absolutely lapping this flag-waving shit up. Sending the Royal Navy out to scare off French fisherman? Brilliant! More of that please!
I'm absolutely baffled by it, but then I'm increasingly baffled by pretty much everything thats happened in this country over the last 5 years
Even the Blairites are giving up on Starmer. This from Andrew Adonis:
The root cause of Labour’s malaise nationwide is the absence of a Labour leader trusted to deliver a better economic future meeting popular aspirations, an especially critical concern in northern towns that have fared so badly in recent years in terms of jobs, public services, education and prospects for young people. Average wages in Hartlepool are lower in real terms than in 2010, yet the Tories have just won an election there! As an experienced Labour councillor put it to me after canvassing in the town: “We had no leader or message apart from our candidate, a great local GP – which just drew attention to the vaccine, which is Boris’s equivalent of Thatcher’s Falklands triumph.”
I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. There was no one else credible and retrieving the leadership from the hands of the Marxist far-left was the first step towards electability. I hoped that Keir, an effective ex-public prosecutor, might have sufficient leadership capacity and modernising social democratic vision to reshape Labour. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure – a nice man and a good human rights lawyer, but without political skills or antennae at the highest level.
The question now is what Keir transitions to and when; and whether Labour needs to lose another general election, to Boris or Rishi Sunak, before choosing a leader who can win. If this happens only after an unprecedented fifth defeat in a row, there may not be much of a Labour party left, and some other political vehicle — maybe a populist one — could seize the anti-Conservative cause in England.
I’m suggesting Clive Lewis as the best compromise
Good call.
Multiple occupancy, corner shops and sweat shops are all manifestations of where some groups are structured in the class system. Multiple occupancy raises issues of health, low pay, high rents and house prices. Focusing on issues of concern shouldn't be dismissed as racist, it's about poverty, inequality and maybe even winning votes.
We need to remember all this troping and name-calling is about shutting down discussion and debate.
Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure – a nice man and a good human rights lawyer, but without political skills or antennae at the highest level.
Sounds fair. Transition to who?
I’m suggesting Clive Lewis as the best compromise
I really like Clive Lewis, but he uses language that speaks to Labour's existing base, I don't think he'd be able to grow the party's appeal. He'd fair even worse tham Starmer at doing this (even though I much prefer his politics to Starmer's). First step before choosing a leader is to accept that they need to be a leader for the wider country, not just for those already supporting or voting for Labour... Lewis isn't that leader.
An obvious starting point would be to challenge the flag waving as a substitute for actual patriotism.
Why bother? It's a thing politicians throughout the world have to do. It's like kissing babies or pretending to like football or pop music. Much easier to do it than to think up reasons why you don't want to.
It's a distinct possibility that the full economic impact of all this hasn't yet hit (despite the BoE claims) and many more people are going to find themselves demoted and dislocated. How they perceive their situation and what political leadership is on offer is key to what happens next.
I don't think old Armrest or Adm Nelson will have much to offer.
I'm absolutely baffled by it, but then I’m increasingly baffled by pretty much everything thats happened in this country over the last 5 years
You weren't at all until the Hartlepool by-election was called binners.
The previous 5 years to that, according to you, everything relating to UK politics couldn't be more obvious. Anyone who couldn't see that was a useless idiot, apparently.
What happened?
People not sticking to the script that you set out for them?
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Bridges will have chased Binners and Kelvin into the arms of Boris by the end of the day.
They really don't need chasing. Going by their views expressed on here, they're already most of the way there anyway.
Prior to that he was called a racist (by you lot) for pointing out another fact that most of the refugees and asylum seekers are placed in the North compared to the south, placing a disproportionate burden on public services. Again: that’s simply a fact. And everyone knows it. How is pointing this out racist?
It's racist because it's not only wrong, but why is he making an issue of a very tiny number of people anyway? Does he not care about them? Clearly not. Have you any idea of the actual numbers of asylum seekers and refugees in the UK as a percentage of the population? It's really, really tiny. Many such people get little or no financial support from the government/local authorities, and are reliant on charities. Regardless, the actual cost to the UK is so insignificant, compared to something like MPs expenses, or providing security to people like ex PMs and the aristocracy. So why is Burnham, supposedly a 'man of the people', even talking about this non-issue? And why have you decided to mention it?
When you scream RACIST! (which you yourself do at the drop of a hat) about things like this, this is exactly why a lot of voters roll their eyes at the left. Because what you and are doing is effectively placing any sensitive topics off limits, and its exactly this that allows the right to build the narrative that ‘its political correctness gown maaaaad’ and ‘loony lefties’
When you try to use imagined racism in people you don't like, yet ignore the actual racism in people you do, you merely exacerbate the already growing problem. And you become an apologist for racism. When you pander to racists, you're no better than them. Pure and simple. The only people using the 'narrative' of which you speak, are the right and far right. By pandering to such sentiments, people like Burnham just become part of the ever-increasing problem. But hey; you've already decided to ignore Blair's genocidal xenophobia, so ignoring other racists because they appeal to your own ideals, must come quite easily to you. Boris will welcome you with open arms.
Good response. So intelligent, thoughtful and insightful.
Ah I see binners, your crystal ball failed you. Well ok that is a very fair excuse.
Although you never told us that you were basing your political strategy on a crystal ball.
You should have told us!
When you dismissed anyone in the Labour Party who didn't agree with your interpretation of the political situation as a "utterly clueless idiot" you should have said, "look you utterly clueless idiot, I have got a crystal ball here and up until now it has never failed me".
Any ideas what you will try next..,. tealeaves maybe?
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
It'll take a while for the red wall voters to feel the impact
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390623341250240512?s=19
Going by their views expressed on here, they’re already most of the way there anyway.
Er... we've both expressed our support for, and voted this week for, this party you might have heard of.. The Labour Party... and both made our views about Johnson and his team abundantly clear in this thread and many others.
You're not ideologically pure enough! So take your vote and **** off!
Just like the majority of the electorate have done already
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
It’ll take a while for the red wall voters to feel the impact
You think Labour won a couple of seats because of fishermen?
So far, the Tories have gained 75 seats and Labour has lost 91.
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
Errrr, the Lib Dems were *far* more "remainy" than Labour.
You’re not ideologically pure enough! So take your vote and **** off!
You are the one who started on the thread by praying for a purging of the unbelievers.
Perhaps you might want to practice what you preach?
It's too late. The damage is done. When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And so he has.
It's probably beyond redemption now, no matter who is leader.
Well done to all involved
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
Lol! Have you started on the sauce a bit early today? Corbyn's currently suspended. Has been for a while now. This is all on Armrest's watch. As much as you need your bogeyman, to blame Corbyn for 'destroying the party', when it's actually Armrest that has overseen a massive exodus of members, supporters and now voters, is just delusional. Take some water with it. 😉
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
I think you also said that any of the other candidates being selected would also have destroyed the party.
On a similar note... everyone currently throwing bricks at Starmer (I admit to lobbing a fair few pebbles his way myself)... which candidate for Leader should they have picked instead of Starmer? Even in hindsight, he probably looks like the best choice available at the time to me. And if you want him replaced RIGHT NOW, rather than a few years down the line... who the hell with?
The voters that brexit has already screwed over are figuring it out
It’ll take a while for the red wall voters to feel the impact
No Falmouth is a University Town - Labour do well there.
The full story across Cornwall is significantly more depressing. Some of the poorest areas here have gone blue. Maybe the Tories are better at getting their demographic to the polling stations.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwall-council-local-elections-live-5383705
I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And so he has.
It’s probably beyond redemption now, no matter who is leader.
Well done to all involved
So yesterday's Labour share of the vote in Hartlepool, which was considerably worse than the very worse vote Labour achieved under Corbyn, is all the fault of Corbyn and anyone who supported him?
Well I'm sure that Keir Starmer will be very relieved to hear that binners.
At least he doesn't have to worry about having to do things differently.
is all the fault of Corbyn and anyone who supported him?
Well it certainly wouldn't have happened without him. No Corbyn, no Brexit => No brexit UKIP would still be taking 20pc of the Tory Vote. Cameron would have run out his term with a tiny majority.
I don't blame him - he didn't know he was going to win - but it is his 'fault'.
Even in hindsight, he probably looks like the best choice available at the time to me. And if you want him replaced RIGHT NOW, rather than a few years down the line… who twith?
+1
When he was elected as leader by accident, I said Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the party.
And then I recall you doing your best to ensure that was the case.
Which is the problem really. Previously the left of the party was willing to mostly go along with the right of the party but once Corbyn got in and the lunatics on the right went full out war it didnt really set things up for future cooperation.
Starmer could have tried to bridge the gap but he seems to have decided to burn down the bridge instead.
The Majority of the press and media in this country is owned / lobbied / funded by Tory party donors. We're screwed.
decided to burn down the bridge instead.
Nobody can point to a single thing he's done to burn bridges.
Out of interest am I the only one who wonders how much worse the result for Labour would have in Hartlepool if Keir Starmer hadn't gone shopping for wallpaper in John Lewis?
Obviously that hilarious 6th form schoolboy stunt grabbed the imagination of many undecided voters.
Talking of which...... how you getting on with your A levels binners?
And then I recall you doing your best to ensure that was the case.
You vastly overestimate the power of Binners. You also overestimate his support for "the right" of the party. Go and read the first few pages of the Corbyn thread... it's quite illuminating actually. Same goes for me as it happens... I didn't start voting Labour 'till Corbyn was elected and moved the party's policies in the 2017 manifesto.
Nobody can point to a single thing he’s done to burn bridges.
Apart from disown his leadership manifesto.
Apart from disown his leadership manifesto.
Things have occurred since then. Do you think Johnson, or Sturgeon, are doggedly sticking to things they said in 2019?
Things have occurred since then. Do you think Johnson, or Sturgeon, are doggedly sticking to things they said in 2019?
They have, so perhaps he could tell us what he plans to do instead. Apart from his highly-successful flag-waving strategy.
There's [ still ] bugger all detail, and there needs to be, as many of us have said. Voters are left thinking that Labour is proposing the same policies as they did in 2019, or have no idea at all what Labour now stand for.
The Majority of the press and media in this country is owned / lobbied / funded by Tory party donors.
Unlike the good ol'days when we had Labour governments that implemented profound changes and reforms which served the interests of ordinary working people and changed their lives in a very real way.
Such as, the Race Discrimination Act, Health and Safety at Work Act, the NHS, discriminalisation of homosexuality, Open University, Equal Pay Act, etc etc
