This is a complete rebuild which will take years.
That's pretty amusing when the 'rebuild' looks very much like 'lets rehash Miliband but with even fewer policies'. It's illuminating though that we've gone from 'should be 20 points ahead' to 'it's impossible and will take years'. If the latter is true, then it's pretty obvious Starmer should be focusing all his energy on the younger generation which will form the new base. Is he doing that? Is he bollocks! He's spending all his time chasing the votes of northern middle aged reactionaries and the young are heading to the green party, lib dems and possibly NIP if they can get some traction.
Fred has been eliminated from our enquiries...
Carry on...
😀
It’s illuminating though that we’ve gone from ‘should be 20 points ahead’ to ‘it’s impossible and will take years’.
I've said the latter all along, acknowledging the truism of the smouldering wreckage that remains of the party after 5 years of Corbynism. No matter who was leader, the rebuilding required is huge.
smouldering wreckage that are the remains of the party is after 5 years
..of the labour right smearing most of the party as anti-semites and/or sixth form revolutionary extremists. They got what they wanted, which was a party in ruins and a fractured and demoralised activist base. They'll never govern again, and don't deserve to.
Round.. and round.. and round.
Tories must love this thread.
Even Corbyn had some appeal at the start and almost beat May, who had even less appeal than Major
That simply isn't true. Sure, Corbyn had huge appeal among middle-class guardian-reading wokie millennials, in fact it was close to adulation, but he had absolutely no appeal whatsoever to the wider voting public, ever.
In fact that is of course precisely
why Theresa May called a general election in 2017. All the polls were showing a huge massive lead for the Tories.
Theresa May had a working majority, she had no need to call a general election. But she got greedy and wanted to wipe out of Labour Opposition in Westminster. However undemocratic it might be she wanted to silence all parliamentary opposition to her government.
So what went wrong? Did Jeremey Corbyn suddenly and inexplicably become popular with voters? No of course not.
As the election campaign kicked off the Tories held onto their massive, and apparently unassailable lead, over Labour.
Then something happened. The first details of the Labour Party's election manifesto were leaked to the press. From that moment on the polls started to slowly shift in Labour's favour so that by the time the full manifesto was officially announced the election had become a whole new ball game.
The end result was that on election day Labour received almost 13 million votes, the largest Labour vote since 1997.
One can only imagine how well Labour would have done had the likes of Keir Starmer not spent the previous two years sabotaging Corbyn with strokes like coordinated resignations choreographed for maximum media coverage.
Although it doesn't take much imagination to figure out that Labour would almost certainly have won the 2017 election.
I know the general consensus on stw is that the voting public are mostly thick knuckle-dragging half-wits, but the reality is that they are a tad more sophisticated than that.
They will consider backing a party led by someone with as little appeal as Corbyn if they are offered something to vote for.
And btw your conclusion of John Major is also incorrect. Even someone as dull, grey, and uninspiring, as John Major, can win a general election. As he did indeed do in 1992.
Then something happened. The first details of the Labour Party’s election manifesto were leaked to the press. From that moment on the polls started to slowly shift in Labour’s favour so that by the time the full manifesto was officially announced the election had become a whole new ball game.
This bit is bang on. It’s the moment I shifted to supporting Labour.
The rest of the post is just selective remembering. The 2019 manifesto, and the way there was always just “one more” policy around the corner as it was launched in stages, was a disaster. The wrong lessons were leant from the 2017. Anyone wanting to “build on” rather than “bury” the 2019 manifesto and its policies (and the style of campaign planning) hasn’t spoken to much of the voting public. Plenty in there that I support, but it was so far from what much of the population could and would support (unlike 2017) it was painful to watch it play out. Labour support only stayed where it was because of who and what the alternatives were. It could well have been far worse.
The rest of the post is just selective remembering. The 2019 manifesto .......
Er, I don't mention the 2019 manifesto or anything at all about the 2019 general election. So I have no idea what "selective remembering" you think I have.
The 2019 election was a completely different situation. I canvassed for the Labour Party in 2017, I wouldn't even support them in 2019.
The rest of my post was just contrasting the impact of the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, rather than attempting to address anything else you posted. Poor writing on my part, sorry.
Poor writing on my part, sorry.
No need to apologise, but if you feel that I'm being selective with my memory please let me know.
I like to believe that I will always accept the truth however inconvenient it might be.
There is really no point in basing your beliefs on lies.
If the truth doesn't sit comfortably with what you believe then change your beliefs. You can't change the truth.
It would be a public service if those who accuse others of using “tropes” (whatever they are) could publish a thesaurus of approved substitutes for those common words that are now deemed off-limits.
I agree. As this thread alone has proved, the issue is now so toxic, many people are afraid of speaking out for fear of expulsion. Which was the aim all along, that's clear. Cancel culture in action.
..of the labour right smearing most of the party as anti-semites and/or sixth form revolutionary extremists. They got what they wanted, which was a party in ruins and a fractured and demoralised activist base. They’ll never govern again, and don’t deserve to.
One has to ask what forces are behind this systematic undermining of the left; it's clear it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, as those who have shouted loudest about Corbyn and his supporters being 'anti-Semitic' have been strangely silent on the real and growing menace of far-right extremism, linked with anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, that has swept across Europe and infected British society. Statistics provided by those who do monitor hate crimes, have shown that it's the far right that is the biggest threat to western society and democracy. and such hate crimes are on the increase. Leaders such as Victor Orban in Hungary, Erdogan in Turkey, and figures such as Italy's Matteo Salvini, are only gaining in popularity, and we've seen how Golden Dawn briefly gained power in Greece. Right wing populism is now so endemic, it has become normalised in many countries including the UK. Switzerland, that great bastion of 'neutralism', has emerged as a deeply right wing nation, those sentiments stemming from Christian conservatism, a pattern that is repeated in many other countries and regions. Of course, divide and rule works very well for those with a vested interest in keeping society fragmented into small, relatively powerless groups. The bitterness between people on this thread alone, in a tiny corner of the internet, amongst people who once would be considered to be on the 'same side', shows just how much division has been sown. So of course, now is not the time to be divided, quite the opposite. But here we are. Arguing and bickering, throwing false accusations around to score petty points. It's just utterly depressing.
EDIT: have a nice evening
...
I canvassed for the Labour Party in 2017, I wouldn’t even support them in 2019.
Just out of interest why not? (I have you down as 'left' (FWOABW) and the 2019 manifesto was far to the 'left' (FWOABW) of the 2017 one so I must be missing something somewhere.)
And btw your conclusion of John Major is also incorrect. Even someone as dull, grey, and uninspiring, as John Major, can win a general election. As he did indeed do in 1992.
Yet when he was up against Blair, a popular leader, he lost.
It is clearly not as simplistic as just being down to the leader due to the many other factors at play but I think it is more than coincidence that the more popular, less dull leader always seems to win.
Johnson versus Starmer, Johnson every time.
Even the dull-grey Major was doing Currie, Blair Mrs Murdoch, Wilson Lady Forkender, Johnson's concupiscent cornucopia, maybe to move up a division old Armrest needs to be giving the ferret a run. Not sure how big the field will be though.
Not sure how big the field will be though.
maybe to move up a division old Armrest needs to be giving the ferret a run
Can I just take the time to compliment you on your beautiful use of the English language there sir. Coffee/keyboard interface 😀
Armrest
Brilliant. I think I'll use that from now on. 😀
Labour losing / lost Hartlepool... god its depressing. I just don't get it the Tories have been aberrant the last year or so but people still think they are better than Labour. Are Labour and Kier really that bad or are the Tories just that good. feeling depressed.
Still all about brexit, the 26% of tbe vote that BXP took last time has gone straight to Johnson
Centrism is no longer popular or useful despite the best efforts of Toynbee and Freedland to convince us it is.
Flags, wallpaper, focus grouping to death - and extremely poor PR haven't helped recently.
And on top of all this Boris Johnson is actually popular and many people don't really know who Starmer is.
Labour will never win without the left either.
Idiot on BBC currently blaming 2019 G.E for today's Hartlepool loss.
The damage of the change to a 2nd ref is pretty obvious too, especially in HP.
But it will still be Corbyn's fault as they try and pull the party to the right as a solution.
Labour will never win without the left either.
While I 100% agree with this, I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the Hartlepool result.
While I 100% agree with this, I don’t think it’s particularly relevant to the Hartlepool result.
I agree. Just been looking at the historical results on wiki and there very little support for left leaning parties there.
Still all about brexit, the 26% of tbe vote that BXP took last time has gone straight to Johnson
Which doesn't explain why Labour won at a canter in 2017, or why the Labour vote dropped 9 points from 2019.
Labour squeezed by both sides. Losing council seats to both Cons where UKIP/BP has cut to Cons and other areas where voters going to the Greens.
There is no easy answer to this as Labour is shedding voters in two opposite directions.
Labour needs to refine the political narrative - not a short term thing.
... and I've spent a huge amount of time over the last month working to get our candidates elected. Our results will not be our until later Saturday or Sunday, I don't think we'll have been squeezed so badly as in some areas but it's really demoralising
Which doesn’t explain why Labour won at a canter in 2017,
Because Labour's vote in 2017 was bolstered by young and professional remain voters.
or why the Labour vote dropped 9 points from 2019.
Because Johnson got Brexit done and he's overwhelmingly popular, and Labour fielded a strongly Remain doctor would was part of a NHS team responsible for closing Hartlepool's hospital.
John Bercow on QT last night summed it up nicely. The Tories were going to take Hartlepool as they overwhelmingly voted for Brexit - the Govt delivered Brexit "phase 1". So they can't get angry about the Govt delivering what they voted for. By-elections are usually a protest vote and a way to give the Govt a black eye .
Covid-19 has suspended the normal Parliamentary political process for 13 months and we've effectively been ruled in an unusual way without the checks and balances of a normal Parliament. The opportunity for discourse has been limited
The vaccine timing is very serendipitous for the Govt.
Because Labour’s vote in 2017 was bolstered by young and professional remain voters.
Citation needed.
So calling voters idiots and racists didn't work.
Needs a new plan for the next GE.
How about calling them peados? That ought to work a charm. It's just a case of finding the right insult to bring people rushing back on board.
People would rather vote for a lying corrupt snake oil salesman than an honest hard working leader, because they know nothing beyond a headline in the sun/Mail/express.
People are stupid.
People are stupid.
People have been kept stupid, so they don't question anything properly
because they know nothing beyond a headline in the sun/Mail/express.
People are stupid
Almost like this was orchestrated...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57017308
The headlines make me want to vomit.
People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly
I think they question it when people call them stupid. And after a short reflection they vote for someone who isn't calling them stupid.
Meh. Vaccines and Brexit. If it's not back as Labour May 3, 2024 (Next G.E. is May 2, apparently) I'll dob Labour a tenner - I've even put it in me diary!
Edit: By May 3rd, 2024. I anticipate the exchange rate will be £2,344,882,000 GBP to 1 EU Neu Federal Reichsmark.
Welcome news for Starmer, Labour have easily held Doncaster mayoral vote
Hartlepool was not good for him but the bigger picture is nationwide
Meh. Vaccines and Brexit. If it’s not back as Labour May 3, 2024 (Next G.E. is May 2, apparently) I’ll dob Labour a tenner – I’ve even put it in me diary!
I'd agree. This proves nothing, the circumstances of the next GE are going to be totally different to today.
Equally, it's not easy to win if you're openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.
That's not going to be the focus of this weekend's news cycle though, is it Kimbers. There's also lots of ... "They should be called the London Party, not the Labour Party" noise on social media at the moment... so I assume Sadiq Khan is expected to hold on in London (and that will be painted as a problem rather than a success).
Equally, it’s not easy to win if you’re openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.
While this has been going on... point me to it coming from Kier Starmer? Even attempts to claim some association with the Union Flag, and claim it for Labour, by him and his team has led to a barrage of abuse about trying to appeal to racists.
Equally, it’s not easy to win if you’re openly calling the electorate racists and suckers.
Yes you've said that over and over again, without any evidence. Who is calling people stupid anyway, Keir Starmer? Remind me when he did that? I mean, he indirectly did when he campaigned for a second referendum...
People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly
People are quite happy to stay stupid is more accurate, living in their social media bubbles, hanging onto simplistic ideas and blaming anyone but themselves. This is the majority of people at the moment, Brexit proved that. Regardless of policy people shoukdnt be voting Tory at the moment on principle due to the corrupt and incompetent government, but to many it's normal when compared against reality TV and social media.
The electorate has always been like this to some extent but we were lucky in that the large majority of politicians didn't openly criss the line and make corruption and poor behaviour seem normal, unfortunately Johnson has and the electorate don't care.
While this has been going on… point me to it coming from Kier Starmer? Even attempts to claim some association with the Union Flag, and claim it for Labour, by him and his team has led to a barrage of abuse about trying to appeal to racists.
Yup, Kier's got it right and I haven't heard him take a pop at the electorate, plus as you say he's suggesting flags etcs. Basic stuff that makes people think you like the country. Kier's setting the example, the party need to follow it.
Who is calling people stupid anyway,
It's so endemic you don't even notice it:
People have been kept stupid, so they don’t question anything properly
I see the new labour glitterati are out on the news channels. Apparently labour 'haven't changed enough'. Translation: We're not tory enough and need to do more purging of the left. It seems they're determined to replicate their achievements in Scotland in England too.
Apparently labour ‘haven’t changed enough’.
Yup, it's deffo the voters who are wrong here.
That's certainly what they want to hear.
Translation: We’re not tory enough and need to do more purging of the left.
That’s your translation. I’d say a new policy platform has not yet been laid out, and so voters either have no idea what Labour stand for, or think they are still offering the policies that were so unpopular in 2019.
Although, policies aren’t the big issue here, it’s still “good old practical get things done British common sense and looking after our own”, versus “do gooders banging on about not breaking rules and laws and looking after others”.
I’d say a new policy platform has not yet been laid out,
Yup, it sucks but oppositions never clearly set out their stand so far away from a GE for all the obvious reasons.
The GE strategy needs to be matched to the circumstances they find in two years time.
