Are you sure it wasn't Jezza's brother?
They certainly don't let him in pubs
Its quite a quaint notion that anyone thinks shame or embarrassment are emotions that either Boris Johnson or any of those around him are actually burdened with
No its for the general public to highlight his lies and forces his MPs to stick their names alongside his lies. Whether it could work or not is debatable, especially since chances of it being given press time is minimal unless johnson upsets the press barons too much, but when you see the desperate attempts to blame the "civil service" for the current sleeze allegations it is clear the tories are somewhat concerned about it.
Its certainly more effective than the primary school level political thinking about a public inquiry showing his failings before the next election.
The labour party is a complete shambles of conflicted ideas.
And Labour supporters wonder why they are not winning.
I'm sure someone in KS's team had a good reason for arranging for him to visit a pub run by a lockdown sceptic fruitloop...
^ well, it's a nice pub tbf.
Are Labour PR even less forensic than their boss?
Are Labour PR even less forensic than their boss?
Don't be ridiculous. This was entirely due to the vaccine bounce.
The guy who runs/ran the Raven is/was active here on stw.
That makes Nigel Farage AND Sir Kier both kicked out of pubs in town. Just need Boris to pay a visit now.
It is a good pub.
The guy who runs/ran the Raven is/was active here on stw.
Really? It's true, some of the 'let old people die to save the economy' perspectives are given a floating on the covid thread every now and again.
Don’t be ridiculous. This was entirely due to the vaccine bounce.
🙂
The vaccine bounce where votes from Lab moved to the Libs and Greens!
We need to see Keir interacting with people more. That was all OK imo, he did nothing wrong. I don't feel embarrassed for him like with various TM, GB, BJ etc interactions.
The guy who runs/ran the Raven is/was active here on stw.
Really? It’s true, some of the ‘let old people die to save the economy’ perspectives are given a floating on the covid thread every now and again.
No. That was a chap called Tim. (He was timraven here.) I rode with him years ago a few times. Nice chap, not at all like that bell-end. I think he moved on from the Raven years ago. It was serving good beer before good beer was trendy. Can’t say I’ll be darkening its doors anytime soon.
Yup, I remember the guy… dragged my other half’s family in there on a visit many years ago based on his comments here. They loved it. That was a long time ago though.
Anyway, yesterday it was interesting reading the response to Starmer on social media when he made his case about the interaction. People are dying to stick the knife into him… and the mix of ‘anti-lockdown’ and ‘everyone else is a Tory’ sentiments is a real heady brew of hate. Who’d be a politician in our current times?
Can’t say I’ll be darkening its doors anytime soon.
Tim doesn’t hold the same opinions as the cockwomble and isn’t that happy that the Raven is now associated with this.
There’s another vid after the original where he’s saying this floating around, assuming it’s the same Tim.
That makes Nigel Farage AND Sir Kier both kicked out of pubs in town. Just need Boris to pay a visit now.
Fridge boy won’t be getting caught out like those amateurs,he’s busy getting photo opportunities in a white coat saving the country 🙂
and the mix of ‘anti-lockdown’ and ‘everyone else is a Tory’ sentiments is a real heady brew of hate.
It as a bit odd that the the people revelling in this nonsense were either the usual Momentum Cult member lefty lot and the Desmond Swayne, ultra-libertarian Tory right wingers.
If you've managed to unite those two diverse groups of complete fruitloops, you're probably on the right track
Carry on...
I dunno, success comes from energising the, er, edges, while still pulling in normals... the Conservatives know this. That's why they're setting Sunak up to appeal to the right leaning voters wary of Johnson's XXXX Business and Watermelon Smiles approach. You get a "leading Tory" for two very different types of voter. Labour are failing here, they're trying to make Starmer one leader for all... and what they need to do is make "Labour" for all, using the wider team... but somehow not allow that to feed back into the ever decreasing circles of "Lefty" and "Torylite" accusations and fighting that's helping keep Labour in eternal opposition*.
[ * cue the "Starmer isn't opposing" nonsense that the pub guy was running with ]
Tim doesn’t hold the same opinions as the cockwomble and isn’t that happy that the Raven is now associated with this.
Ah, I thought Tim had moved on. I’ve seen that video now. This is it:
https://twitter.com/stephensumner15/status/1384137833166692359?s=21
It as a bit odd that the the people revelling in this nonsense were either the usual Momentum Cult member lefty lot
Oh give over. Your imagined image of 'momentum cult lefty' is a complete fiction. You wail about lefties calling everyone a tory (with just a hint of he who doth protest too much), and then in the same breath/sentence say everyone to the left of Nick Clegg is a 'fruitloop'. FFS man go and join the liberal democrats and get it over with, you'll feel much better once you're officially 'out'.
If there was a LP 'vision' it would be easier to share and have shared leadership with different emphases. But a shared leadership is much more difficult to direct and control, so we're left with the harried Starmer stumbling to deliver a stellar performance in a pub.
All of this patronising carp about 'lefty' this and that made me try to think of a decent bit of analysis or theory from one of these rightwing Labour types. The only 'centrist' stuff I could come up with on pressure groups, elections and social capital is from the US or Europe. If your role is to defend the status quo then you don't really need a theory or strategy since you only need to be reactive.
Daz - Mate, you may want to recalibrate your irony filter 😀
lefties calling everyone a tory
Dazh, go and have a look at the replies to Starmer... it's mostly this. ^^^
FFS man go and join the liberal democrats and get it over with
Or this. ^^^
stumbling to deliver a stellar performance in a pub
Nah, some people just want to jump on any problem that Mr Boring comes across, because they don't want Labour to be for all, they want Labour to be for them. He handled it just fine, and he was right to firmly disagree with someone complaining about kids being allowed to wear masks in school during a pandemic.
Binners, do try your best to make clear statements that can be examined and evaluated. Just name name one book or article.
Name name a book or article outlining "centrism"... why? All politicians are proposing different versions of a mixed economy. Starmer is proposing one that is "left wing", he is not a centrist, or if he is, so are all the other modern day politicians.
If you're keen on categories... social democratic... but don't start using such terms if you want to carry the "anti-political thinking" voters with you... and there are a hell of a lot of them these days. Sticking your flag in a political dogma, even a highly flexible one such as that, doesn't look like the path to government these days. Great for the political anoraks, but those people need to let go a bit, and realise it's not all about them.
Binners, do try your best to make clear statements that can be examined and evaluated. Just name name one book or article.
If you're looking for sensible, real-world economic arguments than I personally find Will Hutton has been the most sensible voice on the issue for decades now.
I absolutely agree with Kelvin that the days of political ideologies are dead. Note how the Torys from David Cameron onwards were more than happy to nick labour policies, wholesale, and re-badge them as their own
I know that it's apparently the sin that dare not speak its name but 'being a nicer version of the Tories' is spat out with contempt, but you could also argue (but never do) that the tories are just a nastier version of labour.
because they don’t want Labour to be for all
Are you seriously suggesting Starmer's 'mission' is to create a labour 'for all'? All he's doing is creating a labour he thinks will put him in power, and failing miserably at it. What's amusing is that you're all getting very animated about labour v tory and Starmer v Johnson when there's almost no difference between them. It really is all a load of bollox. Here's some Crass as an antedote 🙂
when there’s almost no difference between them
> sigh <
> sigh <
Even binners agrees. He appears to be catching on..
"I know that it’s apparently the sin that dare not speak its name but ‘being a nicer version of the Tories’ is spat out with contempt, but you could also argue (but never do) that the tories are just a nastier version of labour."
If you’re looking for sensible, real-world economic arguments than I personally find Will Hutton has been the most sensible voice on the issue for decades now.
Have you actually read any Hutton books? They're the most self-indulgent academic dross imaginable. I tried a couple of times and never got past the first chapters. Also I seem to remember he's a huge supporter of Heathrow expansion, completely ignoring the 'real world' problem of climate crisis, and the very opposite of 'sensible'.
So its the most self-indulgent academic dross imaginable, you've gathered from the half a chapter that you bothered reading?
Have you actually read any Hutton books?
Yes. Hence my comment. Maybe you should try again?
Maybe you should try again?
I note he hasn't really written anything on economics post-2008, which makes him somewhat irrelevant as there's been something of a revolution since then in how it all works. I'm more interested in more current, forward looking material than his outdated third way bollox.
He writes in the Observer every Sunday.
Is last Sunday not current enough?
And its interesting you dismiss it as 'outdated third way bollox' when by your own admission you've not actually read any of it.
Just to recap: your economic theory of choice involves re-educating the countries population as to the existence of money trees?
If you’re looking for sensible, real-world economic arguments than I personally find Will Hutton has been the most sensible voice on the issue for decades now.
"Sensible" in what way?
sensible
/ˈsɛnsɪb(ə)l/
adjective
1. done or chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence; likely to be of benefit.
"I cannot believe that it is sensible to spend so much"
I read his observer articles. He's still firmly rooted in the 1990s. FFS, he thinks we should expand airport capacity, that tells you all you need to know.
your economic theory of choice involves re-educating the countries population as to the existence of money trees?
Money trees exist and they work, they're called central banks. Since 2008 the banking system works differently to how it did before. Boris has recognised this and is taking full advantage. Biden has recognised this and is taking full advantage. Starmer and labour, as duly advised by Hutton and other Keynesians are still stuck in the 20th century, and hopelessly out of date.
sensible
/ˈsɛnsɪb(ə)l/adjective
1. done or chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence; likely to be of benefit.“I cannot believe that it is sensible to spend so much”
It'd be helpful if you could set out why you believe him to be sensible.
It’d be helpful if you could set out why you believe him to be sensible.
Indeed. Applying 80 year old political and economic theories to a system which has undergone radical change in the last decade (let alone the preceding 40 years) doesn't seem very sensible to me.
It’d be helpful if you could set out why you believe him to be sensible.
Are you sure you need that kind of help? Can't you finish the argument over whether nasty is better than nice? (If you don't think nice is better then you're either a baddie or very sophisticated and up to date indeed in your thinking.)
Are you sure you need that kind of help? Can’t you finish the argument over whether nasty is better than nice? (If you don’t think nice is better then you’re either a baddie or very sophisticated and up to date indeed in your thinking.)
It's surprising to me that the answer to your first question isn't obvious. Anyway.
Would I like to know why someone believes that a particular set of economic theories are sensible? Yes.
It’s surprising to me that the answer to your first question isn’t obvious.
Just to recap: your economic theory of choice involves re-educating the countries population as to the existence of money trees?
Give over.
There is a better frame work for creating more employment, and a fairer society with mechanisms already in place - with evidence to back it up - and that's your best line of attack? .
Tell me what the economic miracle of Centrists' diluted neolibralism is going to provide? Apart from a failed trickle-down market crapo model that is falling apart in front of our very eyes - which you effectively support by not grasping it's right wing roots.
Centrism is doomed because it's based on neolibralism. It has no ideas of its own.
Centrism is doomed because it’s based on neolibralism.
If neoliberal economics is this supposedly disastrous system, which is inherently wrong, can you fill me in on why people of this country have consistently voted for it for 4 decades, and continue to do so? By a bigger majority than ever?
Seems not many people agree with you. They were offered an alternative at the last election and it was blown a pretty whole-hearted raspberry by the electorate, who opted to stick with the neoliberal model by a massive majority.
So outside your left-wing fantasy la-la-land, where everyone rejects it because you don't like it, we have to work with the uncomfortable reality that to get yourself elected you're going to have to offer an economic model that the electorate regards as palatable.
So thats going to be some form of neoliberalism, of which there are many. Whether you like that or not.
The Tory's offer a completely unregulated, red-in-tooth-and-claw model, where the winner takes all. Labour must accept that neoliberalism is the only game in town now and offer a more progressive and more equitable version of it.
Otherwise it might as well just make placards and sign petitions in opposition for ever.
I know you lot hate the idea, but thats the reality. You've all been railing against the prevailing economic model for decades yet there it still is. I bet if we revisit this thread in another 3 decades, you lot wil still be gnashing your teeth about it, yet there it will still be in some form or another.
Best deal with the world as it is, rather than as you'd like it to be
can you fill me in on why people of this country have consistently voted for it for 4 decades, and continue to do so? By a bigger majority than ever?
That will be primarily because 80% of the voters couldn't even spell economics combined with the fact they have been told for their whole life that managing a countries economy is the same sort of thing as their own bank balance so you can only spend what you have or get a nasty loan.
