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I don't think anyone is arguing the Tories are doing a good job of it but some of their policies are undoubtedly unusual for a Tory government.
The shifting of tax burden away from income tax to other taxes like VAT and NI is definitely regressive, but the overall tax take is high (by historical UK standards anyway)
Sorry for another Guardian article Ernie but this is a good summary imo.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/politics-left-right-tories-advantage-labour
Johnson is still the least right-wing and most progressive Tory PM since before Thatcher, whatever his motives might be.
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
You've ****ing lost it if you think that means the argument has been won. That's a really low bar to even try to draw a worthwhile conclusion from.
Right now, the argument has a sizeable number of the least well off abandoning Labour in favour of the tories, 'the left' being a thing of ridicule amongst those same people and a jingoistic tubthumping racist parody of Worzel Gummidge as PM. To say nothing for the total collapse of Labour in Scotland.
The argument has been put well and truly on its arse despite what the true believers think. This is nothing to do with centerists and everything to do with a parliamentary party in complete disarray and its members determined to carry on the good work by attacking each other and driving even more people away.
Get a ****ing grip for Christ's sake!
It’s only one poll… but it’s still customary to post them here I think…
https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1436076040128974854?s=21
Get a **** grip for Christ’s sake!
For someone who claims not to give a toss about my opinions why the need to tell me to get a grip? Why is important to you? And important enough to add "for Christ's sake"
We've had this argument before and you think it is hilarious that I think Thatcher was more right-wing than Johnson.
Presumably you think all the comment writers who say pretty much the same thing in the FT and Guardian are also hilarious, and should obviously also get a grip for Christ's sake.
Well that's fine, you are entitled to your opinions, despite the fact they are nonsense. You obviously haven't got a very good grip on the subject, which is ironic.
If you had you would understand that yes, the NI hike is regressive, it places an unfair burden on those less able to afford, but then Johnson is a Tory so you would expect that.
However the Poll Tax was incomparably more regressive - a single mother living in one bedroom flat was paying exactly the same local tax as a billionaire living in a mansion. And so central was it to Thatcherism that Thatcher herself called it her "flagship policy".
Right across a whole range of economic issues Thatcher was to the right of Johnson.
To suggest that Johnson is more right-wing than Thatcher is nonsense. To suggest that Johnson is like Thatcher is nonsense.
Just because they were/are both Tory Party leaders doesn't mean that there is no difference. Binners Guardian article is correct imo when it says that Starmer should not keep repeating the "same old Tory party” line, it is not. And that is what seems to be confusing Labour.
Shift the tax burden towards those who can afford it least. Cut benefits when they are needed most. Shuffle funds from the public purse into the pockets of friends, contacts, and the better off. Same old Tories.
I think all that’s happened is that the tories are good at taking the popular Labour policies and paying lip service to them, while proving they aren’t a ‘soft touch’ by being horrible to migrants and provoking phoney patriotic culture wars about statues.
It’s really left Labour in quite the pickle.
Agree. The tories also have the advantage that they are largely preaching to the converted. Labour need to appeal to a high number of those voters that actually like the hardline approach to migrants and scroungers not taking their money and don't dare raise any taxes and take more of their money to fund the ill or less fortunate.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1436080285309972487?s=19
People don't like hypocrisy.
Wonder if this will stick.
Boris on his hind legs? Gove incoming?
(Starmer's IV with Rigby was awful too.)
Kelvin beat me to it. Soz.
It's us or them.
Same old Tories.
If you feel you need to say that Kelvin then it's clear that you completely disagree with the whole premise of Larry Elliott's article, and not just one line as you claimed.
The class interests that the Tories serve never changes but their behaviour certainly can.
Harold Macmillan was a highly successful Tory Prime Minister, he was every bit as much of a Tory as Margret Thatcher, an equally highly successful Tory Prime Minister.
And yet the differences between them was very clear. Macmillan was Keynesian/social democrat and Thatcher was a monetarist/neoliberal.
However callous and disregarding of social justice he might be Johnson is not a thatcherite Tory. Which is precisely why the right-wing press and members of his own party are less and happy and why he appears able to wrong-foot Starmer's Labour Party.
The reasons aren't that important but it is widely believed that he is driven primarily by the need to be popular. He is after all a born showman and all showmen crave approval and popularity.
The Larry Elliott article which binners linked suggests that Johnson's instincts have recognised that the public will no longer buy austerity and neoliberalism, in part due to Corbyn offering an alternative agenda.
Although I suspect that Johnson's recognition of the very serious limitations of neoliberalism when faced with a catastrophic crisis has also played a part.
It’s us or them.
Us?
Them?
As I said quite some time ago, Labour will win when the Tories piss enough people off not when Labour actually to anything to appeal. It is always for the Tories to lose rather than for Labour to win.
More good reading for Labour:
Except Labour have only gained very slightly and most Tory votes have gone to the LDs.
Still worrying for the Tories, their morphing into Blukip has squeezed Labour but left a space for the libdems
Blukip did a good job of getting a coalition of voters together, perhaps Starmers blandness is an asset- for many voters fear of corbyn was bigger than their fear of the tories & keeping him out was the priority
However callous and disregarding of social justice he might be Johnson is not a thatcherite Tory. Which is precisely why the right-wing press and members of his own party are less and happy and why he appears able to wrong-foot Starmer’s Labour Party.
Starmer is missing the biggest open goal ever presented to a labour opposition. As you say Johnson (if not his party) has conceded that neoliberal austerity economics doesn't work and has now shifted to 20th century era tax, borrow and spend economics. Labour have a golden opportunity now to start talking about MMT based thinking and shift the debate away from the govt finances being the same as a household's, but instead they think pretending to be a low tax, austere, 'economically responsible' party is the answer. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
Jesus f****** christ! Just say the words 'Capital gains tax', or 'Wealth tax'. Pathetically incompetent.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1436004573798350849?s=20
Except Labour have only gained very slightly and most Tory votes have gone to the LDs.
It's just a poll. And tells you nothing about geographic spread. Tory votes going to the LibDems is exactly what we need in many seats.
Jesus f****** christ! Just say the words ‘Capital gains tax’, or ‘Wealth tax’.
Nope. Don't pretend to hang Social Care off any one tax. Pay for it from general taxation. Reform taxation across the board.
Dazh- that is progress!
Don’t pretend to hang Social Care off any one tax.
That's not the problem. The problem is his continued inability to say anything straight which gives anyone a clue about what the hell he or the labour party stand for or would do in government. The current tory (and more widely in the media and the public) attack line on Starmer is that he doesn't have a plan, only complains from the sidelines, and doesn't say what he believes in. This interview amplifies that and gives the tories everything they want.
That’s not the problem. The problem is his continued inability to say anything straight which gives anyone a clue about what the hell he or the labour party stand for or would do in government.
An election is 2+ yrs away!!
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
I'd say starmers statement pretty good tbh, not everyone is a frothing at the mouth eat the rich lefty, quite the opposite
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
Is there a happy medium? He was asked 6 times in that interview if he supported a wealth tax to pay for social care - he eventually said they would 'look at it'. Such inspiring and brave leadership...
'hundreds of focus groups and our expensive consultants say this policy won't go down well with the Daily Mail, so we don't know what to do really. People said we should actually oppose the government more, so we say they're doing it wrong, but it's really hard when you don't dare do anything different.'
For someone who claims not to give a toss about my opinions why the need to tell me to get a grip? Why is important to you? And important enough to add “for Christ’s sake”
That bit was a general address to everyone who claims to care about Labour. The factionalisation is killing the party.
As for the rest, read what I actually wrote before accusing me of comprehension failure. I said saying BJ was the most left wing tory PM since Thatcher was such an incredibly low bar it wasn't worth mentioning. It also seems to hinge entirely on one policy.
BJ is for BJ, nobody else. That doesn't speak of leftism to me. Just because Poll Tax was worse doesn't mean this is good by any measure. You honestly sound like you've bought the con hook, line and sinker.
An election is 2+ yrs away!!
Would you rather Corbyns 200+ policy announcements from the last GE?
But that avoids a sense of urgency. It takes time get this in place.
We are way past urgent and I would say that's not long enough to turn it around.
Yeah I would rather have lots of good anouncements that none. Recovery bonds anyone?
That bit was a general address to everyone who claims to care about Labour. The factionalisation is killing the party.
Twas ever thus
Labour have a golden opportunity now to start talking about MMT based thinking and shift the debate away from the govt finances being the same as a household’s, but instead they think pretending to be a low tax, austere, ‘economically responsible’ party is the answer. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
For sure, Labour are constrained by Neoliberal thinking.
They lose these debates all the time.
was a general address to everyone
Okay fairy nuff. A bit misleading though writing it after copying and pasting a quote of mine and providing no other references.
It's good to hear that you presumably still don't give a toss about my opinions 😉
Edit : I hadn't read your edited post. Yeah I get that you don't agree with me. And if you think that I 'honestly sound like I've bought the con hook, line and sinker' that's up you, presumably you think the same about Larry Elliott and all the other commentators in the FT and Guardian who are saying pretty much the same thing.
‘hundreds of focus groups and our expensive consultants say this policy won’t go down well with the Daily Mail, so we don’t know what to do really. People said we should actually oppose the government more, so we say they’re doing it wrong, but it’s really hard when you don’t dare do anything different.’
I dont disagree, but you want policies that will help those that need it & help you get elected to do that.
Labour has struggled with that for some time
Starmer could be very straight on taxes he would increase/reform which would largely affect the better off. He is not going to lose much from doing so as the selfish well off are lost to the Tories and always will be. The less selfish well off who don't vote tory are not going to be turned away from increases as they want a fairer society even if they have to pay their part.
not everyone is a frothing at the mouth eat the rich lefty
Armrest is a rich right-winger. He's hardly going to endorse cannibalism...
The factionalisation is killing the party.
But which faction is it, that is seeking to expel anyone who disagrees with the right-wing neoliberal agenda that the party elite are pushing? Many factions have co-existed within Labour for many decades; only now are we seeing one elite group with power, seeking to destroy any vestiges of the party's traditional core values.
Pathetically incompetent.
Sums up Armrest perfectly.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/are-taxes-on-the-rich-too-high-or-low-in-britain
If you play with the drop-down menu you will see that even 45% of Tory voters think that the rich aren't paying enough tax, compared to the 7% of Tory voters who think the rich are paying too much.
The ground couldn't be more fertile for Labour.
And yet they sit on their arses too terrified of the Tory press.
Yeah I get that you don’t agree with me. And if you think that I ‘honestly sound like I’ve bought the con hook, line and sinker’ that’s up you, presumably you think the same about Larry Elliott and all the other commentators in the FT and Guardian who are saying pretty much the same thing.
Correct.
It's not left wing and neither is he. To claim otherwise is to have fallen for the con.
Also, weren't you lambasting the Guardian as anything but a lefty publication the other day? Apologies if it wasn't you.
Yeah quite likely me, I regularly lambast the Guardian.
It’s not left wing and neither is he.
Do you really not understand the concept of left relative to another position?
Johnson is clearly to the left of Thatcher. But he is to the right of Harold Macmillan. He is also to the left of David Cameron and John Major. But to the right of Ted Heath.
There's no "Tory con" involved here. Johnson has never claimed to be left-wing. But he has claimed not to be a thatcherite Tory, he prefers to see himself as an interventionist Tory similar to Michael Heselstine.
If you think my comments are hysterically funny and that I have fallen for a con hook, line, and sinker, as you apparently do, here's more stuff to give you a laugh :
https://www.ft.com/content/ad5061b8-6a16-42de-b5a9-824cf15b84b6
Margaret Thatcher raised the standard for the small state, public thrift, tax cuts, and the “creative” destruction wrought by free markets. Britain’s steel, shipbuilding and coal industries fell victim to her conviction that if a business needed state subsidy it should not be in business. Prosperity was rooted in the endeavours of enterprising individuals.
One supposes she was turning in her grave this week as Johnson trumpeted his organising mission as increased state support for “jobs, business and economic growth”. The scale of the reversal was laid out in his legislative agenda for a new session of parliament. He has called it one-nation conservatism. True Thatcherites might prefer “treachery”.
public thrift
Talk to anyone working in local government or education. Belt tightening enforced by central government is ongoing, but some people conveniently look the other way.
tax cuts
Inheritance tax. Stamp duty. Anything that benefits the well off rather then the working poor. Johnson cuts taxes for those with, and hits those without with every higher tax bills. Thatcher was also more keen on making tax more regressive, rather than actually reducing how much the total tax take was. See your spot on description of the the poll tax. Two peas in a pod on taxation. And on cutting and withdrawing benefits.
“creative” destruction
Johnson’s MO.
Kelvin, you're not wrong.
The right clip and Starmer can look good
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1436388471745220615?s=19
As Johnson stumbles from crisis to self made crisis, there's ground for Starmer to take
The next few years could well be a shitshow
Boriing & sensible is appealing at the right time, eg May or Major
I posted that before, I thought what he was saying is good but he comes across as quite priggish and sort of constipated. It's also all rather hollow when he doesn't have an alternative.
Ernie I understand completely. What I don't understand is why such a tenuous and marginal position would convince you the argument has been won.
It's not.
I'm sorry squirrel you've lost me, I'm convinced what argument has been won?
I genuinely don't know what you are referring to.
I must have been confused between the Guardian article you linked to that Kelvin was talking about and what was actually said. Lost the thread, the joys of a forum with less functionality than one 20 years ago.
See top of previous page.
Never mind, my mistake, sorry. As you were.
Johnson is clearly to the left of Thatcher. But he is to the right of Harold Macmillan. He is also to the left of David Cameron and John Major. But to the right of Ted Heath.
All the people I have seen interviewed on Johnson say he has no ideology except to be liked
See top of previous page.
Ah that. I didn't link that article it was binners that did, he thought Larry Elliott made a good case for MMT in it.
And yes, Larry Elliott claimed that the left had "won the argument". Do I agree? Well I think the narrative is changing, as the article mentions, and have look at my post at the top of this page.
The argument in favour of austerity clearly has less support these days, as do tax cut policies. I think neoliberalism is in retreat now, the sort of things that Thatcher espoused would lack much public support these days. And nationalising the utilities enjoys more support than privatisation.
Johnson is a populist whose instincts have served him well, he's PM FFS, well above his station.
So do I think the left has won the argument? Well I certainly think that it has made inroads, probably as much due to the self-evident failure and limitation of neoliberalism as that of the left offering a convincing argument. The left mostly doesn't have a platform to reach the wider public.
And if the left had really won the argument we wouldn't have a Tory government today, even one which is attempting to present an alternative post-thatcherism agenda.
All the people I have seen interviewed on Johnson say he has no ideology except to be liked
Absolutely. I have repeatedly made the point that imo Johnson is not really a politician, he is just a showman who happens to use politics as a vehicle for his act.
The advantage of that is that he is ideologically flexible, hence his rapid response with government intervention when the pandemic kicked off.
Rapid response? That one’s a joke, yes? The guy who talked about how by not following the likes of Spain and Italy with measures to stop the spread of Covid we would gain an economic advantage and keep the world moving? That rapid response? Shaking the hands of patients with Covid? That rapid response? Opening schools for one day in January? That Rapid response? Johnson has been slow to act at every stage of this pandemic, and we’ve paid the economic and personal cost of making him PM.
Over 18 months later and people asked to isolate are still only eligible for basic sick pay. It was the first and most necessary intervention to make isolating when asked possible without financial hardship, and he still hasn’t made the necessary response. Paying the full wages of even well paid furloughed staff, while expecting key and low paid staff to isolate to protect other people on the pittance that is the statutory minimum wage. Still… he gave us Brexit, so he can’t be that bad… where as Starmer is a rich right winger who can not be trusted on anything, apparently.
What hell are you talking about Kelvin?
Shaking the hands of patients with Covid?
You don't for a minute think I'm talking about that, so why pretend that you do?
You know damn well I'm talking about the economic response which however inadequate it might have been was still considerably more than a thatcherite PM such as John Major ( remember his response to the recession of the early 90s?) or Cameron would have committed themselves to.
And has resulted in considerable backlash from the right-wing press.
Covid socialism :
Yeah, right, "shaking hands"..... that was exactly what I meant. FFS
It’s nonsense. The Telegraph that is. And Johnson. Keep lapping it up.
hence his rapid response with government intervention when the pandemic kicked off.
I think you’ll find that was nothing to do with our present PM, but all the work of his successor
Think of Boris as a sort of ceremonial figurehead, a bit like the queen. He doesn’t do thinking. He’s happy to smile and wave, and take the credit when one of his underlings occasionally does something vaguely competent
The backlash from the right-wing press isn't, it is very real.
All the other Tory PMs since Ted Heath would have been very unlikely to have acted how Johnson did.
The difference is that Johnson has no ideological commitment to anything other than himself, which makes him very flexible.
I read one commentator in the FT today describe him as having 'no fixed political abode", which hit the nail on the head imo.
Still… he gave us Brexit, so he can’t be that bad… where as Starmer is a rich right winger who can not be trusted on anything, apparently.
It's stuff like that ^^ that drives home to me how futile it is to attempt to have a reasonable discussion with you Kelvin, daft, petty, and puerile comments, is what you ultimately rely on.
All Tories are bad. Johnson is a Tory. There is nothing more to discuss. It's so simple.
Think of Boris as a sort of ceremonial figurehead, a bit like the queen. He doesn’t do thinking. He’s happy to smile and wave, and take the credit when one of his underlings occasionally does something vaguely competent
You do realise that he's prime minister, don't you? And that it is very possible that he will the next general election?
But despite that he's incapable of thought, just smiling and waving?
Well he doesn't sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he's been so successful running rings round the opposition, what does that say about them, apart from the fact that they are no match for someone who can smile and wave?
All Tories are bad. Johnson is a Tory.
Not all Tories are bad. Johnson is one of the worst though.
Bread and circuses
Brexit Britain has the Prime Minister it deserves
Johnson isn’t a Tory. He’s an English Nationalist.
Hmmmmm…. Combining nationalist flag waving and vaguely socialist economic policies. If only someone had thought of that before? They could probably come up with a catchy title for it
But that's just it, all Tories ARE bad.
But some are worse than others.
Do you want Blue ones or Red ones?
It's all very well hoping for a better class of politician, or even a better discourse, but we live with the electorate on our doorstep. The agenda is driven by the 'right', the narrative is one contained and controlled by it, the outcomes are necessarily confined as a consequence.
One thing is certain, you can only change it from within. And that means being the Party of government. And that means sometimes being able to pinch your f***ing nose coz some of it stinks.
But that’s just it, all Tories ARE bad.
Yes they are. We need to remember that even those few that seem more reasonable are still MPs for the Tory party, a party they chose to represent and a party with a twisted view of society and people.
One thing is certain, you can only change it from within. And that means being the Party of government. And that means sometimes being able to pinch your f***ing nose coz some of it stinks.
Yes, some of us on this thread get that while others are waiting for a ideologically pure Labour party before they can support it. The last Labour government were far from ideal but I would rather have had Blair/Brown whoever running thing for the last 10 years given the choice.
Yeah, right, “shaking hands”….. that was exactly what I meant. FFS
Kelvin listed a bunch of areas where Johnson was slow to act, all of them valid. Whether Thatcher or Major (or Starmer) would have been slower is debatable, but Johnson's delay cost thousands of lives.
Yes, some of us on this thread get that while others are waiting for a ideologically pure Labour party before they can support it.
What a sage you are! I thought Corbyn brought you to Labour anyway?
Corbyn was hardly 'ideologically pure', he is more of a Leveller than a Digger. There's also an assumption that parliament can and will deliver, I see the workplace and the streets as greater levers for change.
Kelvin listed a bunch of areas where Johnson was slow to act, all of them valid.
Maybe valid in a completely different context, certainly not valid on the context I was referring to.
Kelvin knows damn well that I was referring to the "big state" response to the pandemic not some bollocks about shaking hands
It is widely accepted that Johnson has taken a very unthatcherite approach, from comment writers of Guardian and FT to those of the Daily Mail and Telegraph, hence comments such as 'covid socialism'.
When in the recession of the early 1980s unemployment was rising to the levels of the Great Depression of the thirties, Thatcher did nothing and continued policies which were guaranteed to make the situation worse. There was no role for the state, the market would solve everything, it was "adjustment".
When ten years later there was another recession under Tory rule which this time had a devastating affect on home owners, and in which the change from profit to loss in construction was the greatest of any industry in UK history, John Major sat on his arse doing nothing, there was no role for the state, the market was "adjusting", it would solve everything. Consequently it resulted in the highest levels of home repossessions ever, with all the associated human misery it caused.
When Johnson came out of hospital he announced before the cameras "there is such a thing as society", a direct attack on Thatcher and to signal the role of the state in the ongoing pandemic.
All politics is class-based, Johnson is there to serve the interests of the existing ruling class, that couldn't possibly be more obvious. But to narrow down the narrative to simplistic nonsense "all Tories are bad, Johnson is a Tory - that's all you need to know" is pathetic.
As pathetic as Kelvin's previous comments that I must be a fan of "Mr Blobby", because I don't follow the script of just inanely criticising him and only pointing out how terrible he is.
When Johnson came out of hospital he announced before the cameras “there is such a thing as society”, a direct attack on Thatcher and to signal the role of the state in the ongoing pandemic.
Heh! Suggesting a link between anything that comes out of his mouth and an action or principle is a bit far fetched 🙂
In this case he apparently went on to talk about piles of bodies.
narrow down the narrative to simplistic nonsense “all Tories are bad, Johnson is a Tory – that’s all you need to know” is pathetic.
Wow, couldn't have it better. As Binners pointed out Johnson isn't a serious Tory anyway, he's just used them as a vehicle, which does reflect badly on the traditional Tory party for letting him.
Intrinsic right of centre politics aren't evil, they don't automatically abandon people, often the ultimate goals are the same, it's how we get there that's different, a difference of opinion, just because you dont share the same view doesn't make the opposing view evil.
Anyway back on topic, Johnson us can out and out populist, he has no morals, no responsibility, nothing he won't do if he thinks he can get away with. FWIW Starmer is my kind of politician, sober, intelligent, little bit left of centre, however he's absolutely not the man to take Johnson down. We need someone politics light with lots of character who will step aside once in power to let the serious politicians back in. I suppose I'll have to wait a bit longer for my moon on a stick.
What a sage you are! I thought Corbyn brought you to Labour anyway?
Yes I am gifted or maybe just realistic on what can be achieved within the UK.
I first voted Labour in 1987 and continued to do so until 2019 when I voted Green so if anything Corbyn did the opposite although I did support his approach in 2017 it was clear by 2019 that he was going nowhere.
Yes I know the Green party is going nowhere, even though in current times you would think it would, but I can vote based on principles where I live as the 20 year safe seat tory gets 65% of the vote...
All politics is class-based, Johnson is there to serve the interests of the existing ruling class, that couldn’t possibly be more obvious. .
Errrr what class was Corbyn? Starmer, Blair, Brown, Miliband? Kinnock was the last working class leader of Labour
The "class war" is diminishing in importance, the left's adherence to it's doctrines part of the problems labour has
In this case he apparently went on to talk about piles of bodies.
Or had a rant in the office and then locked us down again as advised by Whitty etc
He has just dumped a load of cash at the NHS, increasing taxes, breaking manifesto promises, all the right wing commentators are pointing out that it will be essentially irreversible so more taxation coming to enable social care budgets.
Johnson, the enemy of the NHS isn't going anywhere as an attack line
Well he doesn’t sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he’s been so successful running rings round the opposition, what does that say about them, apart from the fact that they are no match for someone who can smile and wave?
And this is ultimately the problem, does Labour have anyone who can take the wind out of his sails? If you can put him on the backfoot his own side will eat him, until then he runs the government and drives the agenda (takes credit for anyone's good ideas and disowns the stinkers)
Johnson, the enemy of the NHS isn’t going anywhere as an attack line
Agree. How the money gets spent and who gets it is an irrelevance as the headline is he raised taxes to improve the NHS.
Well he doesn’t sound like a very formidable political heavyweight, how come he’s been so successful running rings round the opposition
It was one of Bidens aides that nailed Johnson when he called him a ‘shapeshifting creep’
Bang on!
He was your archetypal ‘metropolitan liberal’ when running for London Mayor as that was his route to power. That’s what would win.
He then took the exact opposite stance in the Brexit campaign, effectively nicking Farages clothes to become THE English Nationalist, then railing against that very thing he himself was but a couple of short years earlier - metropolitan liberals
Boris would embrace full blown communism in a heartbeat if he thought it would be in his interests to do so.
It absolutely staggers me that people are still buying his act, but they are. I wonder what the next incarnation will look like?
Since capitalist production is based on one class exploiting sv from another, it would be ludicrous to suggest that in some way class war is over. It might take different forms and eg Johnson might apply different policies depending on circumstances but the aim to to maintain the status quo at any and all costs. Wasn't long ago he was buying up water cannons ffs.
Since capitalist production is based on one class exploiting sv from another, it would be ludicrous to suggest that in some way class war is over.
Point proved, the left fighting yesterday's battles. What class is Mike Ashley? What class is Carol Kane of Boo Hoo?
It might take different forms and eg Johnson might apply different policies depending on circumstances but the aim to to maintain the status quo at any and all costs.
There isn't a status quo, Starbucks, Google, apple, etc have massively changed the paradigm, it will continue to change
Wasn’t long ago he was buying up water cannons ffs.
They were bought from the really nice Germans, imagine EU countries with water cannon! They'll be using CS gas for crowd control next
Simply, Tories have evolved. There's no point saying Boris isn't a Tory. Of course he is, it's just that the Tory party are good at finding new areas to move into.
At their core they are still free-market bullshitters/exploiters. That remains the same. How they achieve that goal has advanced. How they create the environment to thrive has changed.
I didn’t link that article it was binners that did
🤣 FFS I'm on a roll here!
So do I think the left has won the argument? Well I certainly think that it has made inroads, probably as much due to the self-evident failure and limitation of neoliberalism as that of the left offering a convincing argument. The left mostly doesn’t have a platform to reach the wider public.
And if the left had really won the argument we wouldn’t have a Tory government today, even one which is attempting to present an alternative post-thatcherism agenda.
Fair, can't disagree with you there.
I think class is being confused here with status. Whatever Mike Ashley's accent, origins, baggy belly, flat cap or hairdo, his class is determined by being an employer of other people's labour. Boo Hoo are super exploiters of vulnerable workers in Leicester's rag trade, that's what determines her class, it's relationship to the m.o.p. Not difficult. You sell your labour power or you exploit others'.
It was one of Bidens aides that nailed Johnson when he called him a ‘shapeshifting creep’
Bang on!
So you have now completely changed your mind. Yesterday you were claiming that Johnson couldn't think for himself and the most he could be expected to manage was to smile and wave.
Today he is a cunning shapeshifting creep. Although presumably you don't think he is very good at it, despite you listing all his achievements on the way to securing the highest office in the land, as you claim to be "absolutely staggered" that people fall for his con.
And one of the people who has fallen for Johnson's con is also one of the leading commentators on the Guardian, a newspaper which you seem to hold as truth incarnated.
It's a very good article imo, better than the Larry Elliott one which you linked yesterday, although they are both saying essentially the same thing.
And this bit is almost as if Freedland was thinking of you when he wrote it :
"Nor is there much mileage in suggesting Johnson is a fake, that he’s only posing as a tax-and-spend social democrat. Ideological consistency is a quality sought by other ideologues."
Are you an ideaologue binners?
And Freedland goes on to make a remarkably important suggestion :
Instead, it’s better to take Johnson on his own terms. A few licensed Labour outriders could run with that, welcoming the prime minister on to the red team, hailing Johnson as a TINO: a Tory in name only. “Spook his backbenches the same way Cameron spooked ours,” says one grizzled Labour operative.
What Starmer is doing is actually the complete opposite, he is repeatedly denouncing Johnson as 'same old same old Tory'. There is no doubt that there is nervousness and disquiet on the Tory backbenches, specially with commentators in the Tory press denouncing Johnson as a "Corbyn-lite". However they are still willing to go along with him, their willingness to back an increase in taxation to pay for a social service with almost no rebellion was remarkable.
If however Starmer was to welcome the new convert to anti- Thatcherism/austerity and simply offer a better way to achieve the same goals it would provide two benefits.
Firstly it would rattle the Tory backbenches to hear Starmer claim that Johnson was singing from the same hymn sheet as him.
And secondly it would send out a message to voters that Labour's alternative agenda was actually not alternative at all but what Johnson was purporting to be pursuing. It would actually throw the Tories on the defensive.
But Starmer offers no alternative and relies instead on simply denouncing Johnson for being a Tory.
his class is determined by being an employer of other people’s labour
A criteria that clearly doesn't determine class as numerous working class employers can demonstrate
Class doesn't determine whether you have crap morals or treat people unfairly
The left are fighting the old class war not understanding that it's all moved on, Corbyn was as middle class as any of the recent labour leaders, and probably most of the conservative party.
The conservatives have grasped that class has become increasingly irrelevant, that's why their political coalition is broadening whilst labour's seems to narrow and then doubles down by denouncing anyone who has voted conservative as racists etc
Not difficult. You sell your labour power or you exploit others’.
Yeah I was surprised when BnD asked what class Mike Ashley is. Presumably he thinks the answer is based on how he speaks?
Although I do agree that the whole class thing is outdated, about 10,000 years out of date. However we very obviously don't live in a classless society, and I can't imagine why anyone would think that we did.
Edit : I hadn't seen your post BnD when I posted mine
Corbyn was as middle class as any of the recent labour leaders, and probably most of the conservative party.
So what that Corbyn is middle-class? How is that relevant to what we are talking about?
Johnson can't be serving the interests of the existing ruling class because Corbyn is middle-class??
So what that Corbyn is middle-class? How is that relevant to what we are talking about?
Which classes are fighting each other?
Which ones are the baddies?
Yeah I was surprised when BnD asked what class Mike Ashley is. Presumably he thinks the answer is based on how he speaks?
What class do you think he is?
He's certainly not upper class, it just shows that a silver spoon isn't a prerequisite for treating people shabbily, same for Carol Kane etc etc. No idea if he's so of a third generation Dr, dentist or stockbroker
What sides are the combatants in this class war?
.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Tory Party and Labour Party don't serve different class interests?!
Do you think that it is just a really weird and unexplained mystery why almost all former Eton College students who decide to enter politics join the Tory Party and very few join the Labour Party?
You really think that class doesn't come into it?
Perhaps it's just down to much better education that makes them decide to join the Tory Party rather than Labour?
And why are you pretending that because some social mobility exists it somehow signifies that we live in a classless society?
And no, I don't think Mike Ashley is working-class. The definition relies on things such as economic power and the person's role in production, services, etc, not the way they speak or whether they prefer lager.
https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1436698639779442702?s=21
Our whole tax system needs overhauling to not only make it fairer for workers, but also for smaller and medium sized businesses. And we need a real comprehensive plan for care that is more than just about protecting property inheritance for the very well off. Both these things are needed. They are two separate problems though. Blaming an increasingly regressive and not fit for purpose tax system on “fixing social care” when you are not doing anything of the sort is peak Tory. I hope that the public see though the wheeze, and that it is one more thing they consider when they cast their vote at the next election.
So you have now completely changed your mind. Yesterday you were claiming that Johnson couldn’t think for himself and the most he could be expected to manage was to smile and wave.
Today he is a cunning shapeshifting creep.
You think those two things are mutually exclusive? They’re the same thing.
When did I say he couldn’t think for himself anyway? He’s a clever bloke, but what I said is that he doesn’t do ideas. He doesn’t do ideology. Because that would involve effort, and he’s no interest in that. He’s lazy.
He’s a magpie. A thief. He’ll steal whoever’s ideas most enable his self-advancement, free from any particular belief system at all.
Like I said, he’d embrace and promote Buddhist philosophy, communism or whatever if he thought it’d benefit him
To get himself into number ten he basically stole Farages UKIP agenda, wholesale.
Now it’s served it’s purpose, he’s moved on from that and combined his right wing culture war with more left-leaning economics as that’s the way the polls tell him that’s the way the wind is blowing
There’s no such thing as a Johnsonian ideology. It’s just whoever’s ideas he nicks next
It won't work
It's not fwair
& It doesn't fwix swocial care
Tone needs work
To get himself into number ten he basically stole Farages UKIP agenda.
Yeah I get that binners. I am fully aware that Johnson waited until not long before the referendum to decide whether to back leave or remain, despite having decades to think about the issue.
He had to think very hard and calculate what would serve his best interests. I clearly remember when he announced that he had decided to back leave as it made the national headlines.
So does that mean that we can't call Johnson a brexit support because he only took that position to further his own ends?
Johnson is clearly a tax and spend Tory PM, the reasons he is are not relevant to whether he is.
And it does make him different to all other Tory leaders since Ted Heath.
Labour needs to deal with him in a different way to how they have dealt with other Tory leaders.
So does that mean that we can’t call Johnson a brexit support because he only took that position to further his own ends?
He’s no more a believer in Brexit than I am. It just suited his agenda
I look forward to you correcting anyone who refers to Johnson as a brexiteer and pointing out that he is a Remainer, just like you.
I hadn't noticed you doing so but perhaps I wasn't paying attention.