less likely to develop a ‘collective conscience’
Which protests have you been on where the self employed have been absent? What evidence do you have that the attitudes you claim the self-employed have are any less prevalent among the directly employed?
I sincerely hope they weren't absent. Just need more.
NB. Instructive to watch World in Action's 'The Demonstration' (YT) in terms of motives, policing, reportage. Things don't change that much.
Which protests have you been on where the self employed have been absent?
I've been on a couple.
I find your posts, on the whole, pretty well reasoned.
But if you honestly think that the steady erosion of employment arrangements hasn't also eroded solidarity among the workforce you are sorely mistaken.
Be it going from employed to self-employed or properly contracted to zero hours or 'flexible' contracts (with all the flexibility on the part of the employer), you would have hoped this would create some kind of collective anger against those that are actively doing this to them. But no, actually what it has (entirely predictably) created is resentment between individuals who are being deliberately put into competition with each other and resentment towards those that have escaped the rats in a sack trap - for now.
This is the logical extension of the 'free market' nutjobs. Everything is a competition and it is every man for himself*. Throw in a bit of 'othering' (remainers, elites, foreigners, ethnic minorities) and you have a bitter and toxic mix to drive through nasty policies.
*Except if you have money to start with. Then you can reap the rewards of this employment market by gladiatorial 'sport'.
I was talking about this…
Isn’t self-employment a wonderful thing. Uber understood that. They might be objectively working class but can be easily misguided into a lumpen proletarian hatred of socialists, trades unions and demonstrations. Even when they’re on their arse.
These attitudes are being encouraged, and are on the rise, but I haven’t seen any evidence rather they are more prevalent in the self-employed than the employed.
But no, actually what it has (entirely predictably) created is resentment between individuals who are being deliberately put into competition with each other and resentment towards those that have escaped the rats in a sack trap – for now.
I agree. Hence my comment about driving open an imaginary divide between the self-employed and the employed. No matter what your employment status, you can be exposed to the pressures of work and income insecurity, and be encouraged to blame ‘others’ for that.
Dubious of that poll el-bent, but 1% for NHS staff who have run themselves into the ground this last year has gone down like a bag of cold sick with nearly everyone I know, however they vote. That could swing the polls a bit. Doubt it or anything else will bring the parties neck any neck again anytime soon though. Vaccine bounce and opening for summer will keep the governing party rising high.
It looks like the vaccine bounce has reached its limit for now
I still think Starmer is a passenger until that is played out
There will be a rise as we open up more & Johnson has learnt not to overpromise
I wonder if there is a ceiling on those that will simply never vote for Johnson, which opens up a route for Starmer
The self-employed and people on awful contracts are in a position where it's hard to organise trades unions and progress, which is the intention. I happened to be in Sheffield during the 2017 election and the self-employed Uber drivers were buzzing about Corbyn. Uber's been forced into new contractual arrangements, brilliant, people can fight back whatever their circumstances but zero hours and self-employment aren't designed to make it easy.
Union Jacks on every public building, every day. 'Labour indicated its support for the plan.'
#HeIsATory trending on Twitter
I still think Starmer is a passenger until that is played out
Pretty much where I’m at.
That’s a very large points gain for Labour. Not sure I’d trust that.
“ Gimme a country that's red, white and blue
Gimme the British way, honest and true
Gimme the chance to be one of the few
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme
Gimme a nation where people are free
Free to do and free to be
Free to screw you before you screw me
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme, 'cause
I'm alright
I'm alright
Union Jack
(Fly the flag, fly the flag)
Gimme a Britain that's got back the Great
A race of winners not cramped by the State
And only the helpless get left at the gate
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme, 'cause
I'm alright
I'm alright
Union Jack
(Fly the flag, fly the flag) “
A true blue brash fat greasy greedy Tory with serial trouser transgressions will always joyfully thrash a wannabe or pretend-to-be-to-get-elected Tory. Bash the animals, cut taxes, party of business, 1%, fly the f flag, and they're still a chasm behind.
A regular on here started the thread 'Why would you vote Labour?', it certainly makes you think.
I see the usual suspects have got #StarmerOut trending on Twitter because of his refusal to back the Liverpool mayor and the corrupt councillors .
With whats come out already - and it looks like theres lots more to come - there's fraud and corruption on a massive scale, going back decades. What the hell is he supposed to do? Defend a load of people who've clearly been trousering backhanders for dodgy property deals where the amounts of taxpayers money going missing are huge.
It's no wonder he scuppered the existing candidate shortlist. It looks like they were all up to their necks in it
https://twitter.com/KevinPMeagher/status/1374774680066871302?s=20
Union Jacks on every public building, every day. ‘Labour indicated its support for the plan.’
Only one? Why do they hate this country?
Don’t worry, they’ve changed the guidance to allow more than one flag to be raised on the same pole. See, they can think about the details of the implementation of rules when it really matters (to their political games).
“ Gimme a country that’s red, white and blue
Gimme the British way, honest and true
Gimme the chance to be one of the few
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme
Gimme a nation where people are free
Free to do and free to be
Free to screw you before you screw me
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme, ’cause
I’m alright
I’m alright
Union Jack
(Fly the flag, fly the flag)
Gimme a Britain that’s got back the Great
A race of winners not cramped by the State
And only the helpless get left at the gate
Gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme, ’cause
I’m alright
I’m alright
Union Jack
(Fly the flag, fly the flag) “
SLF - nice, one of my all time favourite bands... best bit on this thread IMHO
Fantastic idea! Put the boot into Liverpool, much bigger deal than the PPE scandal, Serco, contracts down the pub, 1%, moon shots, satellites, 40 hospitals, extra 40% for atom bombs, herd immunity, UC.
It clearly takes quite a while for the penny to drop, these Islington millionaires are not going to fight your corner.
Once again people within the labour party have gift-wrapped a suitable distraction for the Torys. I don't think the irony is lost on anyone that its Robert Jenrick that's levelling accusations of dodgy property deals and backhanders. You couldn't make it up
But Starmer can't possibly do anything but distance himself from Liverpools bent councillors.
What would you have him do? Line up and defend them as they all get charged with bribery, corruption and fraud?
That'd be. a great look, wouldn't it?
Islington millionaires
Love how Johnson's attack lines on Starmer get dripped out by people to the left of the Labour leader. It's almost as if his team really know what they're doing with this divide and rule stuff, isn't it.
Someone please wake me up when Starmer actually opposes something. PMQ is a joke now - Johnson is running rings round him - saying a silly joke, lying, and Starmer just sits with his schoolteacher po face doing nothing. Hopeless.
Someone please wake me up when Starmer actually opposes something.
You want him to oppose this?
Seriously?
Have you actually read anything about what the Labour party councillors in Liverpool have been up to?
Someone please wake me up when Starmer actually opposes something.
He's "opposing" things the government do all the time. He's not going to oppose flying the Union Flag... because even those of us with a sixth former's understanding of politics can see the letters T R A P printed all over that one. As for Liverpool, what exactly do you want to happen? Labour dropped and replaced everyone on the mayoral candidate short list for good reason. This was always coming down the track. A Labour government would have had to act as well.
Islington? Hodge and Starmer and at one time Blair.
Have you actually read anything about what the Labour party councillors in Liverpool have been up to?
Binners is on the money here. This particular instance is no place for "football supporter" politics. The Labour-run planning office has been bent for years and years, and there are on going investigations from the SFO to local cops to internal civil servant reviews, they all point to that facts that various Labour councilors have been lining their own and their mates pockets with handfuls cash stuffed into brown envelopes, the cops recently confiscated nearly £4K from one.
How else is Starmer (a QC) supposed to react to that sort of criminal activity exactly? Certainly not by standing in solidarity with Labour comrades (who're on the fiddle), certainly not by supporting a candidate groomed by the very folk who're being investigated.
The Torys will make political gains from this simply because; in this instance, they legitimately can.
My wife's family are all embarrassed by the council farce.
Theyre all labour voting scousers and would still vote Labour regardless
They all just want the constant exposure of council scandals in the local paper to stop.
Islington? Hodge and Starmer and at one time Blair.
Starmer lives in his constituency, not Islington.
It was Johnson who lived in Islington 'till he got his new free digs as PM.
At least you're one of many people enjoying his "joke" approach to PMQs.
The "Have I Got News For You" approach to chamber politics.
And he's not just aiming to undermine Starmer with the Tory voting base, far from it.
Feeding the anti-Starmer noise is currently key to his divide and rule winning ways.
Clever stuff that only the uber clown could sell so well to his opponents.
Apologies, flat-fronted Georgian three storey terrace in... Camden. Quite different. Blair used to have stone lions outside his place.
What the hell has Tony Blairs stone lions got to do with anything?
You haven't answered the question as to what you'd have Starmer do about the situation in Liverpool? Support them? Back them? Regardless of what they've done?
Thats whats being suggested by all the usual lefty suspects. Tribalism takes priority over criminality.
This is a proper hospital pass he's just received from the Labour party in Liverpool. There's is no good solution. It's now about damage limitation. Its an absolute gift to the Tory's
So what would you have him do?
He could fully accept that the situation in Liverpool is unacceptable and needs dealing with but also point out that it's a bit rich being lectured about corruption by the Tories after the PPE etc scandals and by Robert Jenrick in particular.
Or maybe he has done that, I dunno. I'm losing interest tbh.
Can you not see the headlines 'LABOUR CORRUPTION, TU PALS, SCOUSE SNOUTS IN THE TROUGH, MILITANT...' and Starmer is squeaking 'me too, me too!'
?
Can you decipher that for us into something comprehensible?
What would you have him do?
Parachute in ex-councillors from places like Hackney, to stand as Mayor?
I know Jon Burke. He's a ****.
The narrative will be on corrupt Labour politicians, scouse accents (not universally popular in eg Manchester but I love it), connections with trades unionism, 'anything but-Corbyn' substituted by 'anything but Labour', they can't even clutch their bums type carp and Starmer goes along with it.
I do wonder whether Starmer's ambition is to reduce the membership size by eradicating anything challenging, use the press and ad agencies to get your message across because all the leafleteers have left or been expelled, hobble the local parties over nominating candidates, and just become a party of self-recruiting chums in parliament backed by big business. It's a bit difficult to see it any other way.
You should write a book. Your imagination is wasted here.
The narrative will be on corrupt Labour politicians, scouse accents (not universally popular in eg Manchester but I love it), connections with trades unionism, ‘anything but-Corbyn’ substituted by ‘anything but Labour’, they can’t even clutch their bums type carp and Starmer goes along with it.
If thats the narrative, thats because Labour councilors have made that the narrative with their actions over decades. Their accents and where they're from isn't the point. What you are suggesting is that he oppose it in a knee-jerk fashion, simply because its the Tory's that have imposed it? And in doing so, show that the labour party nationally endorses endemic bribery, corruption, fraud and witness intimidation amongst its councillors?
Right-ho. Glad we've cleared that up.
use the press and ad agencies to get your message across because all the leafleteers have left or been expelled
Leafleteers? Your minds going to be totally blown when you hear about what people are using to communicate political messages nowadays.
You haven’t answered the question as to what you’d have Starmer do about the situation in Liverpool? Support them? Back them? Regardless of what they’ve done?
Joe Anderson and anyone proven to have indulged in corruption should be unceremoniously kicked out the party and prosecuted. Anderson is a classic case of the corruption which is endemic when local labour parties have hegemonic control of a city. The same is largely true in Manchester but they long ago learned the tory trick of hiding their corruption behind the veil of quid pro quo. Clearly their Liverpool colleagues weren't sent on the training course.
Was that what you were expecting me to say as a 'lefty usual suspect'?
A Hartlepool councillor has just been expelled for criticising the nominations procedure, on and on.
Blimey, I wish it was my imagination instead of bitter experience. Leaflets involve talking to people and being right there in the community.
Craig Hannaway? He’s been vocally supportive of the “Workers Party GB” since being overlooked as a Labour candidate to be the MP, hasn’t he? Labour tend to expel anyone seen to encourage support for another party (something I strongly disagree with as it happens).
The problem for Starmer in Liverpool is that rather than being seen to be rightfully removing corrupt councillors, it will simply be seen as supporting the tory takeover of a democratically elected labour council. What he needs to be doing is showing that he'll support the local party by allowing them to select new candidates who voters can then elect confident that they are not corrupt. Instead he'll impose new candidates centrally, as he did with the mayoral election and confirm the suspicions that he doesn't believe in party democracy, resulting in more infighting and division. It's a funny way to unify the party that's for sure.
Did you follow the mayoral candidate selection fiasco? There was a short list of candidates all close to Anderson and this mess. A new “centrally” imposed list was drawn up to replace it, with other local councillors more recently elected on it, including one very vocally supportive of Corbyn and critical of Starmer’s handling of him. It’s a good list of candidates with local support, but not connected directly to the alleged corruption. There was uproar. It had to be done.
What he needs to be doing is showing that he’ll support the local party by allowing them to select new candidates who voters can then elect confident that they are not corrupt.
And when the local party select candidates that are part of the old corrupt circle-jerk (which is what they did), what then?
What's happening in Liverpool is pretty much what killed Labour in Scotland - elected members imagining that they can get away with pretty much anything because people will always vote for them. Except eventually the alternative becomes less unpalatable, and all that's left is the long lingering taint around the Labour party.
What he needs to be doing is showing that he’ll support the local party by allowing them to select new candidates who voters can then elect confident that they are not corrupt.
Confident they are not corrupt? Really? I think you can be pretty much 100% certain that they are thoroughly corrupt
The candidates put forward by Liverpool labour party had all been closely involved with those accused and arrested of massive scale fraud, corruption and witness intimidation for decades, meaning they were either entirely complicit in it, or blind and completely numb to what was going on around them.
Neither is a particularly strong recommendation, is it?
You're seriously suggesting that the national party leadership should have let that go ahead, and watch as the 'new' candidates are seen by everyone as a continuation of the same old rotten regime?
You lot really need to get out of your paranoid, conspiracy-theory mindset. Once again: Starmer had little choice but to put a stop to it. Its not some mad conspiracy, its doing what needs to be done to restore some faith that the local Labour party doesn't just represent a self-serving and corrupt gravy train.
