Sibling problems regarding LPoA

Short answer is yes (usually Attorneys are able to make individual decisions, unless the PoA document specified that both Attorneys need to agree).

Longer answer is a bit more complex - the Attorneys must act in the interest of the person who granted the PoA (their mum in this case) and is one isn't, then they can be removed. This is a legal process and will probably require a lawyer - check at https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian for some details.

Depends on the type - when you set it up you define whether one person can make decisions without the other, or whether they both need to agree.

I think it depends on how the poa is drawn up. I think it can either be full power to either party or only to both in agreement

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/choose

Does the POA grant attorney to both of them equally and independently?  Does it apply to both welfare and finance?  Does it have any provisions for resolving disputes between the parties.  The phrase used in the LPOA is probably something like “Attorneys acting jointly” = both most agree on the decisions.  “Attorneys acting severably” =  either can make decisions without the other, it’s a recipe for chaos if they don’t agree.  It’s possible to list decisions separately - eg major decisions on where someone should live or sale of a large asset might require joint attorneys but paying the electricity bill can be done by one. It’s also possible that one is Attorney and the other is just listed as an Alternate (ie the first is the attorney and has all the power, the second only gains that power if the first is no longer able to).

Attorneys must always act in her mother’s interest and not their own interest.  The OPG would get involved if there is a compelling case of someone not acting properly. 

proper legal advice probably is required, if there is some doubt about the actions it sounds to me like it would be completely proper for legal advice to be paid for by the donor (her mother) since the advice is ultimately for her benefit.  Assuming your friend has some PoA then I think she could instruct legal advice on her mothers behalf (and certainly a lawyer specialising in this sort of stuff is likely to be able to provide an initial quick consultation FOC to tell you (a) if the can act; (b) if it is proper for the donor to pay.  

Of course that doesn’t necessarily get to a useful resolution: I am going to take legal advice to stop you doing what you claim is best for mum is unlikely to be a great sibling relationship builder.   It is also possible that a third party looking at it impassionately would say, the sister can’t cope and the best interest of the mother IS a care home, or indeed that the sisters option is best (I’m not sure why a chair lift and shower are so much poorer for the inheritance than sale costs and stamp duty so perhaps there’s something more to it?)

A family lawyer will more than likely do a free consultation on this

As above, poa is either jointly or severally/solely. So they need to check the wording as to how they can act.

I suspect an estate agent would be very uncomfortable acting in a situation where attorneys disagree fundamentally about a course of action involving a vulnerable adult 

From what you have said, best interests of mum do not sound as if they will be served by relocation to a new home away from her existing neighborhood. At the very least her future care needs will need to be considered as a priority, and appropriate care put in place.. Neither sister may be in a position to fully assess this and you may need to seek professional advice. In the first instance an OT would be able to advise on mobility issues.

I'm a bit out of touch but when my father was in a similar position, the local authority social care unit was extremely helpful when seeking help for a vulnerable adult. He also had a social worker assigned.

From my own experience I would recommend seeking advice from bodies such as the British Red Cross who had a fantastic bank of volunteers who were able to point me in the right direction and give me phone numbers or contact details of people who could actually do something as a matter of urgency.

Age concern/help  the aged were also excellent 

I had a chairlift installed for my dad, he actually rents one rather than buying.. he has carers in every day to shower etc,  he could arguably go in a home but is adamant he wants to stay in his home for as long as he can.

Contact the Local Authority and ask for an assessment of her care needs. 

I'd guess that a solicitor could quite easily stop the money grabber in her tracks.

Makes me sick to the stomach when friends/family start disagreeing over money - even more so when the bloody money isn't theirs

My wife was POA for her mum. Still consulted with sisters. One of her sisters fancied buying the house (MIL in Nursing home). She thought we'd let her have it cheap. A four bed detached is woth more than an ex three bed council semi. We bluntly said we could not do it cheap as POA responsibility it to MIL and selling cheap would be depravation of assets due to the council having a charge against the property for Nursing care.

In this case one sister is not following the principle of the POA so can be challenged. Other sister is best explaining this as you can't maximise inheritance at the cost to the person.

Some people are right shits.  MIL was worried she'd not leave anything. We all said it's your money and it's to look after you. We don't want it. Most went in care fees anyway. 

I keep trying to get my folks to do a POA before they need it. One of my sisters has agreed but none of them have even moved on it yet and they aren't getting younger.

Other than the phrase “taking away from her inheritance” I’d say in no position to take sides. The situation is far to complicated and i have far too little information

Christ, I read about situations like this on Bored Panda, mostly in America, and you’re left wondering if people actually behave like this. 
Sadly, it really appears that they do!

Self-centred as a giroscope, some people! 😣

The best response is probably; “what inheritance was that, then?”…

A stair lift either rented or bought, plus a refit of the shower /bath situation is also cheaper and less hassle in the long run if they are happy where they are... Plus there's not the stress and upheaval for the parent of selling the house and finding a reliable buyer etc.

To put it into perspective... As a seller your probably looking at 4-5 grand in conveyance fees, and probably the same again for estate agent commission..

So let's be generous and call that 8k to sell.

You can have a stair lift fitted and have the bath/shower adapted for less money than that if you are shrewd about it.. Never mind the mental stress for the parent if they are happy where they are.

Lots of reasons why a bit old house might be unsuitable beyond just the stairs. 

It sounds like one sister is the primary carer and is doing all/most of the caring. Depending on the elder’s needs, than can be an enormous task. Don’t dismiss their opinion too lightly. Maybe your friend is not the good guy here?

Lots of reasons why a bit old house might be unsuitable beyond just the stairs. 

It sounds like one sister is the primary carer and is doing all/most of the caring. Depending on the elder’s needs, than can be an enormous task. Don’t dismiss their opinion too lightly. Maybe your friend is not the good guy here?

Fair points... It's tricky.
My point is that it might be cheaper for all to modify the existing house... Especially if the mum is settled and happy where she is?
What will the 'live in' sister do?
Rent or buy her own place?

Posted by: fossy

↑

I keep trying to get my folks to do a POA before they need it. One of my sisters has agreed but none of them have even moved on it yet and they aren't getting younger.

The angle I took with my mum was, "my partner and I have just put PoA in place for each other... oh, hey, why don't we do that for you too?"  It's an easier sell than "you're getting old and might lose your marbles tomorrow." 😁

Posted by: mattyfez

↑

So let's be generous and call that 8k to sell.

Seriously?  Is this linked to property value?  When I sold my place it was about £3k in total.

Posted by: Cougar

↑

Seriously?  Is this linked to property value?

Can be yes. Depends on the deal with the agent. At the minimum you have selling solicitor fees and could have a deal where the agent is due a percentage of the sale price. 

Depends on the value of the house...
You have solicitors convayance fees which are generally a fixed price, plus the estate agents commission, so there's two quite hefty bills there, depending on how you do it.

The commission might be a fixed price or it might be say 4% of final sale price for example .. It just depends on the property.

And then of course, if there's two siblings in charge of the sale, one sister might think the house is worth 20% more than the other, so that complicates agreeing a price with a potential buyer.. Etc.

Seriously?  Is this linked to property value?  When I sold my place it was about £3k in total.

I think the difference here is between “sell” and “sell and buy again”

I once was able to claim relocation expenses. It came to about £8000. A guy i know who is a bean counter worked out it would cost well over £10000 to move next door as they were well into stamp duty territory

I wasn't even factoring in potential stamp duty in my replies!
But I suspect it will be minimal or zero of the mother passes whatever is left to her two only offspring anyway.

The big question for me is what is the other sister going to do if she's living pretty much rent fee in the mother's house?
Will she rent her own place near the mother's new house or continue to live with the mother?
The cynic in me suggests she will try to pocket any profit from the sale of the mothers 'downsizing and relocation'.

Posted by: mattyfez

↑

But I suspect it will be minimal or zero of the mother passes whatever is left to her two only offspring anyway.

?? When she buys the bungalow there will be stamp duty to pay.   No stamp duty on inheritance.

so moving means:

• estate agent fees for the sale
• solicitor fees for the sale
• solicitor fees for the purchase
• stamp duty for the purchase
• removal costs
• redecoration/furniture cost

Thanks so much for all the very helpful replies.

Of course there is always more to a story. My friend works nearly full time and is on caring duty when she can (last week she moved in for 4 days to help care for the mother, while her sister went away).

I have read many text messages from the sister to my friend. These messages are absolutely horrible. Sister is only thinking of her needs (the bungalow is miles away where the sister used to live and has friends).

My friend truly only has her mother's interests at heard.  These sisters are both in their sixties and this shouldn't be happening. 

Putting aside behaviors, moving into a bungalow is probably a sensible thing to do.

I hope I can make that difficult decision at the right time 

• Posted by: binman

  ↑

  Putting aside behaviors, moving into a bungalow is probably a sensible thing to do.

On one hand yes. On the other hand, forcing a dementia sufferer to move house can create all kinds of issues. 

I’d cut the sister a, very, little bit of slack. I can see why she’d want to move closer to people she knows. Got to be pretty isolated in her current position. 

Posted by: bunnyhop

↑

Question; they both have PoA for their mum, but the sister has tried in the last week to put the house on the market, booking the photographer and giving the go ahead to sell. Can she do this?  

The simple answer is that if they are empowered to act "jointly and severally" then the sister can do this. The other sister (your friend*) can try to use the legal system to prevent it, but it will be a difficult and probably expensive process with no guarantee of success. They will have to argue that it's not in the mother's interests, and they'll have to get the court to agree that their view is more credible than that of the sister who argues for downsizing, and who is actually living with the mother and providing the bulk of the care (whether true or not, it would be likely that she could argue this quite convincingly).

Personally, I would possibly try to discourage the action but if the sister is determined, I would then shrug and say that the mother should have made a better choice of attorneys. I have already told my own mother that if my deeply unpleasant brother tries to interfere in any use of the PoA that we both (jointly and severally) hold for her, I will resign my authority and walk away and leave her to enjoy the consequences of his behaviour. So far he has shown no such inclination but she still has her marbles and the help I currently provide is very much on an "on request" basis rather than due to lack of capacity. If that changes, well, we'll see what happens.

(*) on re-reading it seems I've assumed your friend is female but I don't think you wrote that, sorry.

A couple of things to add I guess.

One is - jointly or severally/solely - regardless of this its important to step back one level. POA doesn't put you in charge, its puts you in the position to help the person who nominated the POA. You help them do what they want, you don't take control of their life. It's not about 'your inheritance' it's about their life and you helping them live it as fully as they can in the way they want to.

Another, looking away from the mechanism of POA, financial motives aside:

Sister wants to sell the family home and put her mum in a bungalow miles away from where they live now.

My question is how is this good for the mother. An important thing to understand about dementia is while it's true you forget information about places, things, people you don't lose feelings for those places, things and people. The feeling of being with familiar people is really important and the feelings associated with familiar places are too. I think if you possibly can its important retain those familiar relationships with people and place. And recognise that even if you feel forgotten you're not, not in the ways that matter.

A third thought really is - a shower and a stair lift won't really hold back the tide very long if the aim is to avoid or delay ultimately going into residential care. In those terms a house move is a short sighted strategy. By all means live at home, happily, as long as you can. Don't consider residential care a day sooner than you have to. But it very well may become a need rather than a choice and denying that need to someone is unacceptable.

Whats the mothers view in all this?  Does she want to move? Is she capable of understanding the consequences of decisions?

Just because you have dementia it does not mean you lose all your human rights.

POAs job is not just to act in the best interests but also to act in the way the person would like.   Known views or best guess at them

Sounds like she wants to release capital for her own benefit and try to reduce the amount she stands to lose in inheritance if the Mum needs to go into long term dementia care. Where they will spend all of your money , leaving you a few tho. 

Sell big house , buy small bungalow in cheap area. Bank the difference. Persuade ( con ) mum to move the balance in her direction. Hope Mum lives long enough ( 7? years ) for it to become a gift for tax reduction purpose. 

A large unilateral gift to just one child is one thing where I think the courts would actually be likely to take action. 

Note that you *cannot* use a PoA to give gifts other than those customarily made (eg a few quid at Christmas/birthday if the donor had usually done that prior to losing capacity). 

Moving to where the sister has friends seems fair enough if the sister has moved to live with the mother. Being 60 and spending even a year as a carer living like this sounds pretty tough to me. Cost wise it’s not a great move as stated above.

My mums stair lift was a second hand unit supplied and fitted by these guys:

https://www.haltonstairliftsltd.co.uk

It was about £2k so may not be as expensive as they think.

They were brilliant from start to finish, they came in did a survey, gave a quote, we went ahead and year later, they honoured the quote and fitted the next week. In that time they didn’t chase or bother my mum at all. 
Last week the seat belt got a bit jammed, they came out and fixed within a couple of days.

They are based in Liverpool my Mom is in Kidderminster, but from the great service they may as well have been next door.

The installer’s Liverpool accent was so thick you could stand a spoon in it, which I liked.

My friend knows the PoA is for her mother and only has her interests at heart. The sister moved in before the mother showed signs of dementia (to live board free), she is resenting caring, however my friend says they should use some money to get carers in a few hours a week to give the girls some respite. The sister does the basics (only because she has too) but nothing else.

The sister only has her interests at heart, she has even converted the large garden shed into a pottery studio (without the mother's consent when the mother was able to say no).

The siblings relationship is so bad that the sister will not communicate with my friend in any way, shape or form. My friend is a kind, caring, generous, hardworking person, safe to say the sister is none of those things and only thinks about herself. My friend does know that eventually her mother will need to go into a home, the sister doesn't want this as it will cut into her inheritance. I am trying to stay polite, but having seen reams of texts from the sister regarding the care and interests of their mother, safe to say she is selfish, uncaring and quite frankly has lost the plot.

Their mother is quite lucid most of the time, but has her moments (she accused my friend of stealing her jewellery, which was safely away upstairs,), the sister never stuck up for my friend when this happened, nor sticking up for her when other things have happened (accusing my friend's husband of being a murderer and trying to get rid of his MiL). 

Friend has asked for my help as she's at the end of her tether, but it's hard to know how to help and quite frankly I want to shake the sister.

I think if theres no love lost just get the Office of the Public Guardian involved. It's both an upside and downside that LPoAs are pretty much un-monitored once established, compared to other mechanisms around elder care. (I had to arrange Self Directed Care for my mum for a while and that required a separate specific bank account, and reporting income and expediture regularly)

So on the one hand its a bit of a relief that as an attorney you're unencumbered by admin at a time when your attention really needs to be focused on the person needing care, on the downside it gives you more than enough rope to hang yourself and acting beyond the powers that the LPoA gives you is a form of abuse. I think if there are concerns the OPG getting involved will at least pause the process and make sure that the sister is only acting within the powers they actually have, not the ones they imagine they have.

What a horrible person. You just know when someone moves in for the free board, they are going to freeload and not help. Horrible situation to be in. As said above, I think your friend needs to follow the advice above, as being a POA you must act in the best interests of the person, no matter what.

If the mum is still lucid fairly frequently, then she is still capable of consenting/not consenting to the principle of the house move if it is properly and patiently discussed with her, and her 'attorneys' should be taking the time to seek her views. Has OP's friend actually sat down with the mum and found out what she thinks of moving?

Even if the other sister can in theory make these decisions independently under LPoA, OP's friend can put the brakes on a house sale by contacting the estate agent and suggesting that there is some dispute over whether it is in her mum's best interests. Most EAs would be nervous about proceeding in those circumstances.

OP's friend can put the brakes on a house sale by contacting the estate agent and suggesting that there is some dispute over whether it is in her mum's best interests. Most EAs would be nervous about proceeding in those circumstances.

This a good point - even if the POA allows one attorney to act unilaterally that means they can both act unilaterally so your friend is just as able to stop the sale as the sister is to have instigated it, and the estate agent will then know going forward that there are two parties that they should be in correspondence with.

The idea of configuring LPoA to allow people to act individually rather than jointly is simply to reduce the burden on attorneys so that they don't need to formally agree every mundane day to day decision or action. But its not a tool to empower one party to work to the exclusion of the other. 

In that case I refer to my previous post that really there's not a lot that can be done, the mother has chosen to give the sister this power and must live with the consequences.

I will also note that if the sister's care (however limited it may be) keeps the mother out of a care home for a few more months then (a) the mother will almost certainly prefer this unless she is really being abused and (b) the resulting savings will probably dwarf any savings that the sister is making through living there rent free.

I don't mean to minimise the nastiness of the sister though, she sounds like a piece of work, but I just don't think that the friend can realistically do a great deal about it other than keep tabs on the situation. The house move sounds like a bit of a waste of time, effort and possibly money but it's the sister's time and effort at least.

Posted by: MacCruiskeen

↑

your friend is just as able to stop the sale as the sister is to have instigated it

I don't see how. It may be that an estate agent will refuse to act, but I don't see any legal impediment to one attorney acting as the sister is described as doing. She has the power to sign a contract in place of her mother (assuming loss of capacity etc), and it's valid regardless of the other sibling saying "I don't want to".

This is confusing in that the other sister ‘sort of’ [sic] cares for the mother who has dementia and when she was away the other sister moved in for 4 days and took holidays from work. Sounds like the other sister is the mother’s full time live in carer to me so would quite rightly need to reside with the mother.

Another option could be for the mother to move in with the lovely sister but I wonder if that would require her to give up work and a cut in income. Have you suggested this option?

I’d counsel to be very careful as these sort of problems can have serious consequences if the other sister decides to hand over care responsibilities for example.

In that case I refer to my previous post that really there's not a lot that can be done, the mother has chosen to give the sister this power and must live with the consequences.

This is not how it works. The mother has chosen to give her daughters the authority to act in her best interests on her finances. This power isn't an irrevocable free hand, it is regulated by the Office of the Public Guardian, and anyone can intervene via the OPG if they have evidence that her best interests are not being served, for example if the attorney was emptying her investment accounts to buy Maseratis.

And on top of that, as I mentioned, LPoA does not immediately cut a person off from any say in their affairs. Dementia is not an on/off switch which instantly removes all capacity to make any decision. Even people with reasonably advanced dementia can have periods of lucid thought in which they have capacity to make reasonable choices. 

As one of the attorneys, OP's friend has a responsibility to make sure her wishes are being followed, as long as they do not run obviously counter to her best interests or place her at risk of harm.

I don't see how. It may be that an estate agent will refuse to act, but I don't see any legal impediment to one attorney acting as the sister is described as doing.

It's more that a reputable estate agent will be very wary of proceeding if there is any hint of a dispute over LPoA, as it could collapse any sale further on if the OPG gets involved. And, as the other attorney, OP's friend actually has a duty to intervene if she honestly believes that the sister is not acting in the mum's best interests.

Posted by: Martinhuutch

↑

And, as the other attorney, OP's friend actually has a duty to intervene if she honestly believes that the sister is not acting in the mum's best interests

No, there is no such duty, nor does she have any rights or authority whatsoever over the actions of the other attorney. For all his faults, at least my brother has not (yet) sought to stick his oar in regarding the things I've been doing for our parents now for about 10 years.

I do not believe there is any way for anyone to "collapse any sale" short of getting the OPG involved, and from the facts as presented, this seems far-fetched. It looks very much like the relationship between the siblings has broken down but not between either of them and the mother. One of them is effectively a live-in carer and it seems unlikely that their views will be easily discarded. Of course if the mother has the capacity and strength of personality to object to the sale herself, then that would put an end to it.

Thanks once again for all the replies and explanations. What a pickle. Will try and pick out all the relevant bits and show them to my friend. 

More help please. My friend’s sister has taken her (plus friend’s husband) of LPoA. Has put her mother’s house up for sale and will be moving the mother miles away from all family, friends and everything familiar to her.

My friend can’t afford a solicitor. Also a close friend says the sister could possible take over the mother’s Will and manipulate the mother to write out my friend.

Is there anything she can do about this dreadful situation. 

Do you mean "taken off" ie removed them from the LPoA? That is not something she has the authority to do. Your friend can try contacting the Office of the Public Guardian and/or the police, setting out the details...

abasic chat with a soliciter willbe cheap or free.

office of public guardian as above for abuse of poa

That is not something she has the authority to do.

It's something they can apply to have done - theres a procedure - but they can't just do it. An attorney can be removed if they themselves lose capacity for instance, or if they breach their duties. Removing an Attorney would involve the Court of Protection and the person making that application to the court would need to have legitimate grounds to apply for that removal - some identifiable  failing of legal duty, not just a disagreement.

An attorney can't change someone's will

That said - a diagnosis of dementia does not automatically mean someone lacks capacity, it depends a great deal on the specific condition and how advanced it is. The 'donor' - the person who created the LPoA (ie the mother in this instance) is able to remove attorneys and change wills provided they still have the capacity to do so. So while you say the mother has dementia it's not clear how capable she is in making decisions.

But if the mother hasn't told your friend of these decisions (the house sale, changes to POA etc) herself then it would suggest something more coercive is going on

Personally I'd be getting the Office of the Public Guardian involved

They have a form you can submit to 'raise a concern'

Tj has covered the key points.  Most solicitors dealing with this stuff would do 1/2hr free chat to discuss possible routes forward and costs.  IF the ultimate outcome is to stop misuse of the mums PoA I think mum’s money can ultimately pay for subsequent legal costs.  If mum has no money then legal aid MAY help.

@bunnyhop I am a bit late to the party on this one, but it is my field of work. With anything to do with LPA's the overriding principle is that any decision made on behalf of the donor must be 1) In their best interests and 2) Based on the attorney's knowledge of the donor closest to the decision that the donor would have made for themselves.

One attorney cannot simply remove another from the document - the donor would have to consent to the removal, do a deed of revocation and put new LPAs in place. So there is something missing in the whole story.

That said it would appear clear that the sister is not acting in her mother's best interests and that a degree of elder abuse / financial abuse is taking place.

If your friend cannot afford a solicitor to fight her corner then her only course of action is to alert the safeguarding team at the Office of the Public Guardian. Their job is to investigate the abuse of LPAs and should they find anything they would remove the sister. There are potential criminal sanctions too, so sis could end up spending some time at his majesty's pleasure. I have been involved in two cases where this happened (both had missapropriated serious 6 figure sums).

OPG can be reached here https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian  

@NJA

Sometimes the STW forums cut to the chase with a post by someone who really understands the issues.

Thank you once again.

My friend says getting help is a minefield. She's now even got social services involved )the sister has lost the plot. I fear my friend will have a breakdown.