[Closed] Should Theresa May resign?

Marr getting justifiably angry with Gove

Does he (Gove) have no shame ?

Betting odds on a 2018 election are 9:4

If waiting a couple of years means corbyn will have a solid majority, then that’s worth it.

History will treat the current Tories justifiably harshly not least for delivering Corbyn on us all. For that they should not be forgiven.

I think things could develop quite quickly. The key thing is the brexit bill. If she's defeated on that then she has no authority left. The brexiteers will want rid of her in favour of Boris, the remainers would rather commit hari-kiri than let that happen. Has there ever been a January election?

I respect the vote but still want membership of the SM and CU
When will politicians get a grip of the basics? We have chose to end our membership and we are negotiating our future access. It’s not hard to get the basics right.

Its remembrance Sunday give the trolling and hypocrisy a break please

I think things could develop quite quickly

24 hours later and now we have the two cabinet ministers, one of which who should already have been sacked, dictating to the prime minister about how she needs to toe the line, and supposedly 40 MPs now ready to dump her. Wonder what will happen tomorrow?

we are negotiating our future access.

No we are not. there are no negotiations on future access until the 3 key isses are solved.

It’s not hard to get the basics right.

😀

(Obsession?)

3 key isses are solved.

Nope. EU deliberately invented the vague and ambiguous phrase “sufficient progress” which is not the same as “solved”. They did so as to try and create time pressure and in any case they needed to wait until after the French and German elections before being able to agree anything. As Merkel did poorly and still hasn’t formed a government it’s no surprise the decison point is now December instead of October. If there is no agreement on transition and subsequent free trade agreement the EU won’t be getting any money post March 2019. May has offered to pay into the EU budget till 2020 on that being the case. No deal no money. Note also the May/Florence offer would not have been made by a Leaver PM - see below - my preference is WTO and no paymnets to the EU at all post 2019. Once out we can discuss sector by sector free trade with the EU if they wish but we’ll do against a backdrop of free trade deals agreed with others and a consequent and inevitable decline in our trade with the EU (which has been falling as a proportion for the last 10 years anyway)

As we’ve said repeatedly May is under pressure from those who share my view of Brexit, if she goes she’ll be replaced by a true Leaver. The list of MPs against May are Leavers not Remainers. Be careful what you wish for STW remainers. I’d be delighted to see her gone. Think about that.

Tory Remainers (there are very few) will not force a GE over EU withdrawl. May called one as she thought she would win big, Tory remainers aren’t going to call an election they could well lose.

Tory remainers aren’t going to call an election they could well lose.

So they'll put their own electoral interests before those of the country and their beliefs? It only means that when the election finally comes round the labour majority will be even bigger. Corbyn will have carte-blanche to do whatever he wants. As it stands if an election were to occur now labour would at best have a small majority, meaning Corbyn and McDonnell's revolutionary instincts will be tempered by moderate MPs. So tory remainers have an interesting choice, either get rid of her now to avoid a hard brexit and ensure a moderate labour government, or go off the cliff edge and run the risk of an unopposed post-brexit socialist revolution.

I don't know why but I suspect many tory remainers would prefer Kier Starmer to be negotiating brexit than Michael Gove or Jacob Rees-Mogg.

*incoming report from Mitty Towers*

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#jambafact:

Tory Remainers (there are very few)

Reality:
A majority of Tory MPs voted to remain.

https://www.ft.com/content/408da138-550b-11e7-80b6-9bfa4c1f83d2

So they'll put their own electoral interests before those of the country and their beliefs?

The irony is the brexies arent even putting their countrys interest first, thyre putting someone elses wishes for our country first

willing fools etc

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-russia-influence-twitter-bots-internet-research-agency

a weak & rudderless Britain is just what Putin couldve wished for from Brexit

any one of the hard Brexit clowns that might replace May would have no easier time controlling an utterly divided party that still cant decide what it wants from Brexit

The very best thing that we could have done post referendum is to call a public inquiry into leaving the EU and the social and economic problems that precipitated the vote.

Unfortunately, the Conservatives put party unity before national interest by enacting Article 50 before anyone even understood what Brexit meant. It's becoming increasingly clear that Brexit means no Single Market, a corporate tax haven and curtailed employment regulations dressed up as "the will of the people".

I sincerely hope that all of this is remembered for generations when people look at their ballot papers.

Fortunately it only will take a small amount of tories with brains an heart to vote down the brexit bill or vote for amendments that will wreck it. I would hope that there are 10 - 20 tories with some intellect, some integrity and some sense.

Its a sad state of affairs that that is what we are relying on to stop the single most destructive decision the government of the UK has taken in my lifetime

I am slowly starting to believe the previously unimaginable consequences of Brexit being the United Socialist States of Great Britain - I expected some horrible Tory thing.

I'm totally for Brexit now - never trusted the English to do anything good with it.

Fortunately it only will take a small amount of tories with brains an heart to vote down the brexit bill or vote for amendments that will wreck it. I would hope that there are 10 - 20 tories with some intellect, some integrity and some sense.

Brains AND heart? In the same Tory MP?

Sadly my MP has just become chief whip, so I'm guessing that approaching him to vote against the government in the interests of the country may be not a productive use of my time. 🙂

The very best thing that we could have done post referendum is to call a public inquiry into leaving the EU and the social and economic problems that precipitated the vote.

We had a chance and the experts opined. The public didn’t buy it. At least not in sufficient numbers. What is the point of an inquiry?

Unfortunately, the Conservatives put party unity before national interest by enacting Article 50 before anyone even understood what Brexit meant. It's becoming increasingly clear that Brexit means no Single Market, a corporate tax haven and curtailed employment regulations dressed up as "the will of the people".

Remind us what the leader of HM Opposition was proposing re the timing of A50?

If people didn’t understand what Brexshit meant re the single market, then that’s their look out

[tinfoil conspiracy theory hat]

Part of me wondered if all this chaos in the govt is being contrived by hard line brexiteers so that time runs out and the only outcome is a no deal exit

[/tinfoil conspiracy theory hat]

Its certainly the aim for some. they want a low wage, low worker and environmental protection state. They won't get this if we have a deal of any sorts with the EU. Its also the aim or Murdoch and the barclay brothers

We had a chance and the experts opined. The public didn’t buy it. At least not in sufficient numbers. What is the point of an inquiry?

We live in a representative parliamentary democracy, it was the duty of the government to have called an inquiry. Instead, it allowed itself to be hijacked by a minority of rabid MPs and a largely pro-Brexit media.

An inquiry would have acted independently to at least map out the best possible way forward on Brexit in the public's interest. The fact that we didn't have an inquiry is worrying.

If people didn’t understand what Brexshit meant re the single market, then that’s their look out

So you're saying that it's our fault that we were lied to?

I've refrained from commenting because this thread (like the Referendum thread) is descending into a petty echo-chamber, but to voluntarily absolve Gove, Johnson, Farage, Hoey et al of any responsibility for shifting the goalposts is beyond the pale. If we cannot have confidence in the integrity of the officials who represent us, then we lose confidence in the entire democratic process. They should be held to account and I suspect that one day, they will be.

The brexit thread has over a thousand pages. I'm sure we don't have to go over it all here again unless it's relevant to TM resigning.

Since we're on the subject though, maybe the reason for TM hanging on is that she sees herself as the last line of defence against those who would take us over the cliff? If she was in favour of no deal she could easily hand over to one of the nutters and be absolved of the blame. Her reputation is bad enough without having a no deal - or to coin a phrase from the brexit thread, a 'north korea' - brexit hung around her neck.

I wonder too if part of Corbyn's retreat from hard brexit is a strategic move to make it more tempting for tory remainers to push the eject button.

if she goes she’ll be replaced by a true Leaver

Jeremy Corbyn? 😀

Corbyn's retreat from hard brexit

I would seriously question if Corbyn has retreated from hard brexit. His election campaign featured policies that required a total exit from the EEA. He's been campaigning for this for 30 years. Hard to see why he's changed his mind now. He's just keeping quiet to keep remainers in his own party/core vote onside.

EDIT: On rereading perhaps keeping quiet to keep remainers onside is what you mean by "retreat from hard brexit" in which case I'm in total agreement.

Will we also have a public inquiry when a Labour gov delivers Brexshit. Jezza finally gets his wish!!

It’s not fair why didn’t anyone tell us they were the same as the Tories !!

It’s an outrage

Corbyn personally may not have changed his view but labour policy is now definitely softer on brexit than it was. I also think his time as leader has made him more pragmatic so I see no reason to doubt that the change in policy is genuine.

The tories have shown they are not to the job , time to let someone else have go.
Personally I think all Remain MPs should join the libs.

Nah Corbyns smart enough to see which way the political winds are blowing, the more incompetent and divided thr Tories are over Brexit the more the public are turning against it.
Given that any victory he might have is likely to achieve a slim majority, possibly even in coalition the limp Dems he'd be beholden to his own anti-brexit rebels wholl be eagerly aided by the majority of remain supporting Tories, suddenly set free from the strictures of being responsible for obeying the will of the (swivel-eyed) people.....

Ki9mbers - I don't think that is a worry given the huge remain majority in the commons and leavers are a tiny part of labour.

Nah Corbyns smart enough to see which way the political winds are blowing,

So conviction politician to opportunist that quickly. Who wouldn't have thought it?

Unfortunately, the Conservatives put party unity before national interest by enacting Article 50 before anyone even understood what Brexit meant . . . .

Surely everyone knew exactly "what Brexit meant" [b]Before[/b] the vote . . . Otherwise how would they know which way to vote?

Spekkie - not really due to the lies. Everyone on the leave side supported this lie of having your cake and eating it. Remain got called project fear for daring to say there were downsides. UKIP were given airtime way beyond their just amount, minor remain parties got almost none

MPs get hired on a rolling 5 year basis so they always have an eye on the est election. Be8 g in opposition is very frustrating as you can’t achieve much of anything. Also as PM / leader you really only get one go, so no one jumps. You have to be pushed.

The very best thing that we could have done post referendum is to call a public inquiry into leaving the EU and the social and economic problems that precipitated the vote.

PM that is actually not a bad suggestion. Allegedly the EU helps “the country” ie GDP goes up but that doesn’t help for example an unemployed fisherman when the GDP growth is in London/South East. The voting patterns where very illuminative, education levels for example showed that those with degrees felt far more secure and propserous in the EU than those without.

@daz does have a good point about the EU Thread and this one. So apologies

May won’t resign (see above one chance only) and she’ll only be pushed out by clean break Brexiteers

Unfortunately, the Conservatives put party unity before national interest by enacting Article 50 before anyone even understood what Brexit meant . . . .

The Tories waited nearly a year before A50, plenty of time to figure things out for those in doubt. The Remain and Leave campaigns where quite clear about no single market and no customs union plus of course no freedom of movement / no ECJ

The Remain and Leave campaigns where quite clear about no single market and no customs union p,us of course no freedom of movement

Or are you talking about similar clarity to the £350 million per week for the NHS?

Still have a giggle about that bus gag and how quick people were to distance themselves from it.

there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. The idea that Britain will be the only country in Europe not to be part of this zone is silly

Still on vote leave website

they were anything but clear on the fact that we were voting for hard brexit - like the NHS lie at the time this is just another lie but this time after they won the vote

the idea that we were voting to leave everything and they did not claim we would be in the free trade area is just not true - they argued for the cake and eat it - leaving but somehow staying in for the good bits - which to tories is just free trade

The Remain and Leave campaigns where quite clear about no single market and no customs union plus of course no freedom of movement

The "Bus" con was a good one 🙂

Hook, Line & Sinker.

Allegedly the EU helps “the country” ie GDP goes up but that doesn’t help for example an unemployed fisherman when the GDP growth is in London/South East. The voting patterns where very illuminative, education levels for example showed that those with degrees felt far more secure and propserous in the EU than those without.

At the risk of derailling this - you are quite right in that the UK government often doesn't care about the poor and disadvantaged communities. But the EU probably cares more.

In an effort to prevent thread closure...

May won’t resign (see above one chance only) and she’ll only be pushed out by clean break Brexiteers

I agree that off her own back she won't resign. She's too stubborn and perhaps duty-bound. However as we've seen many times previously, it won't be her choice. Thatcher went after proclaiming she'd hang on, Blair too. At some points events will overtake her. I also agree it'll be brexiteer extremists that do it not remainers. What I'm interested in however is whether the tory remainers/DUP will then fall into line and support a no-deal brexit or abstain in the inevitable no confidence vote that will follow.

The Tories waited nearly a year before A50, plenty of time to figure things out for those in doubt. The Remain and Leave campaigns where quite clear about no single market and no customs union plus of course no freedom of movement / no ECJ

Not really as they also claimed we could have tarriff free trade and all the benefits of EU membership but without immigration

Brexiteers may de throne her but there are three issues
1. surely even they realise they dont have enough support to win a vote to be leader
2. the person who does the stabbing never wins in tory elections as Boris recently discovered.
3. Very real risk of a labour govt if they try and that will be a much milder brexit if at all.

Allegedly the EU helps “the country” ie GDP goes up but that doesn’t help for example an unemployed fisherman when the GDP growth is in London/South East.

Jeebus, did anyone see her on the news tonight, with the see through dress she's looking more and more like 'mother' from futurama, apart from the fact mother actually has a cause.

[img] [/img]

@matty Certainly a poor dress choice, really glaringly terrible outfit. At least as blokes the biggest mistake we can make is a bad tie / shirt combo and this was black tie so hard to go wrong for a bloke

@dissonance see Andrew Marr show for Gove and Johnson's statements during the campaign, Osbourne and Cameron for Remain. Farage wasn’t part of the official Leave campaign, I didn’t pay much attention to what he said nor Leave.eu

when you are the subject of ridicule on I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue then it's time to go.

Now the contents of Gove and Johnson’s letter has been made public, it’s clear to see that any PM with the slightest shred of authority would have sacked the pair of the arrogant, self-serving ****s for their sheer bloody affrontery

Apparently Davis is on the verge of resigning over it, and her paralysis and abject failure to do precisely that

Surely that’s then the end of her, and this sorry shambles of a government

Apparently Davis is on the verge of resigning over it, and her paralysis and abject failure to do precisely that

It's not just May that the Brexiters constantly briefing against her are undermining, Davis' credibility has been tarnished, the series of unforced errors & being outmanoeuvred by Brussels at every turn means they are all worried about failure to deliver the fantasy Brexit they promised damaging their careers.

Rumours of Davis ready to quit have been emerging lately, he's just gonna bail out as soon as he possibly can I reckon

If he goes, will May just carry on regardless or will she escape too?

Davis must be desperate for an alternative 'reason' to head for the hills rather than trying to resolve the cosmic joke that is the UK's negotiating position.

I think the penny has finally dropped that the NI question in particular is a Catch-22 which cannot be reconciled in the current political climate.

The death throes of any government are never pretty to watch.

If he goes, will May just carry on regardless or will she escape too?

And when will she sack "no unemployment" Hammond??

Everyone is looking at the brexit loons but it’s Hammond who is the real danger for May I think. If she sacks him, or even worse he resigns like Geoffrey Howe, he could call out the brexit shambles for what it is, and take a large group of the non-lunatics with him. The whole thing could collapse very quickly, and I still think that if the only option to stop a no deal brexit is to bring down the govt then they’ll be very tempted.

its just a mess she is an incredibly weak PM with no authority moral or political
Those two are contemptible

We all want you to push your agenda forward with confidence and have your Government articulate the following..

No one is really in charge are they and Dazh is correct and someone may well put country before party / their own agenda Its going to be a very rocky period the next 12 mths

kimbers - Member

Rumours of Davis ready to quit have been emerging lately, he's just gonna bail out as soon as he possibly can I reckon

He already said he's retiring after brexit so it won't make that much difference to him

How many cabinet ministers is that now? They'll be challenging the labour party soon. She'll be taking inspiration from Jezza on how to hang on.

Do you think she has Aspergers?She doesn’t really seem to have any feelings and even when she smiles she looks sad.
She certainly isn’t all there.

I think she is a mix of stiff upper lip and just incredibly uptight so she does not really do public displays of emotion - she may not do private ones for all i know.

Still a shit PM even for a Tory

So, he admits he lied about the pron.

Is she still here?

I'll say something for her - it must take a serious amount of determination to drag yourself out of bed to go and face this omnishambles every day.

Do you think she has Aspergers?
.....She certainly isn’t all there.

As someone with Aspergers I would say she does. She is not comfortable socially, doesn't display emotion and looks like she has to force herself to fit into the situations, following a script to help.

Take a bit of objection to suggesting someone with Aspergers is not all there but I won't get emotional about it.

Apologies all round to those that live with Aspergers.
Except Enola May ,she can **** off.

do Aspergers sufferers swing from one extreme to another ? John Major - Joseph Stalin 😯
(I don't think for one minute the iron lady act is "Honest", we're are not going to see a Geoffrey Howe moment from Damian.)

tomd - 
I'll say something for her - it must take a serious amount of determination to drag yourself out of bed to go and face this omnishambles every day.

I think it's called braying, not mooing.

She wil probably fight on until the bitter end. Delivering a Brexshit solution is her only shot at delivering any kind of political legacy. If despite all the crap going on around her, she can deliver here, then history “may” treat her differently - perhaps she is made of former stuff than many around her?

Personally I have no idea how she sleeps at night.

Personally I have no idea how she sleeps at night.

Maybe she just doesn't give a shit?

Personally I have no idea how she sleeps at night

Maybe she thinks it is all going fine

Delivering a Brexshit solution is her only shot at delivering any kind of political legacy

Due to the totally irreconcilable Brexit paradox at the centre of the Tory Party, she's safe as houses

Seeing as everything is now viewed through the warped prism of Brexit, only 2 facts matter:

1) The vast majority of Tory MP's were, and still are remainers, and consider Brexit to be utter madness

2) The membership of the Tory party, who will elect the next leader, are all ancient unhinged, deranged nationalistic racists, who honestly believe they can return the country to the days of empire.

Everything else is just white noise.

So if the MP's push Theresa, then they hand the ancient unhinged, deranged nationalistic racists the decision on the future of the party, and the country, at the most critical of times in this nations post-war history

There are only two contenders as far as the headbangers are concerned: Boris and Mogg. Either would be an unmitigated ****ing disaster, that would see us waving two fingers to the EU, crashing out without a deal, and over the abyss into economic Armageddon!

That would finish the Tory Party for generations, if not destroy it permanently, and more importantly "Hand the keys to number ten to a Marxist" © Daily Mail

Like I said... safe as houses

The jobs hers for as long as she wants it. Though why anyone would......?

The jobs hers for as long as she wants it. Though why anyone would......?

I suspect THMs 'grown ups' are behind the scenes telling her that she is all that stands between the nutters or the communists gaining power, and they'll be keeping her very well insulated from most of the flak. She doesn't seem like the type, like Blair and Cameron, to crave approval or adulation so why would she not continue? She's probably secretly enjoying watching the nutters becoming ever more unhinged. It's the biggest trolling exercise in history.

It at times like this that the grown ups show their true value - even if many deny that they exist

Why is Mogg considered a leadership contender? What positions of responsibility has he held? He amuses the media but apart from that he is a marginal player at the moment - just a rent a quote

Mainly because a substantial proportion of the membership of the Tory party would think him an ideal candidate

So the thing that would stop him would be that under the leadership rules the MPs decide who to put up for election by the party, but if the blue rinsers are clamouring for his inclusion would they be brave enough?

Why is Mogg considered a leadership contender? What positions of responsibility has he held?

You're starting from an assumption that we're dealing with rational people here

We're not

This is the Tory party membership we're talking about. Have you seen them? 😯

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Personally I have no idea how she sleeps at night.

TBH she doesn't look like she does very much recently.

Binners, in this order

Boris
Gove
Leadsom

Too early for Patel and more so for JRM

Binners, in this order

Boris
Gove
Leadsom

Off-topic a bit, but I was listening to a podcast chatting about Labour’s succession plan. JC is no spring chicken, of course. This is something they need to think about imo as failing to plan for succession often ends badly! The leading name was Thornberry, then a few others from the left who were perceived as too junior at the mo. What was striking was the lack of any names from the right of the party, I guess, given the election system, they wouldn’t have a hope at present!

For the Tories, Hunt’s name is being bandied around too. All a bit tainted, aren’t they?! Hammond, despite seeming a bit dull, would be my choice.

[quote=airtragic ]What was striking was the lack of any names from the right of the party, I guess, given the election system, they wouldn’t have a hope at present!

Which seems to be the way most internal party elections go when they end up in a public vote - the Tory leadership electorate is far more right wing than the majority of those who vote Tory. See also Roy Moore getting put forward by the Republican primary etc.