[Closed] Should Theresa May resign?

I offered an article that mentioned two nationalizations. Rail & Mail. I did that to support my claim that Labour's Manifesto incluided multiple nationalizations. Yes the article mentioned many other things that were not Nationalizations

Err no. You offered energy as an example, when it isn't. You were wrong.

See post above with link.

Cool, so name some that have both left the EU and nationalized multiple industries within 5 years. Apparently it's commonplace.

Err no. You offered energy as an example, when it isn't. You were wrong.

I directly quoted the article in quotes as requested.

Yep, that doesn't support your claim. Next!

In which case, do you disagree with my opinion? Do you think that the PLP are in step with Momentum and if Jeremy Corbyn went under a bus tomorrow the PLP would put a Momentum friendly candidate forward? Or would they put people like Chukka forward?

Given that, do you think the Labour Leadership rules and the PLP will need to be changed ASAP to allow future momentum friendly candidates to be put to the membership, or not?

Oh man - you've won!

To be fair, google won.

If we'd be having this debate 30 years ago you could have spun it out for weeks.

Re: PLP I'm honestly not sure. Difficult to gauge how many of the 47 new Labour MPs would feel differently towards Corbyn. 35 needed for a nomination.

I directly quoted the article in quotes as requested.

The article you quoted doesn't support your claim.

In which case, do you disagree with my opinion? Do you think that the PLP are in step with Momentum and if Jeremy Corbyn went under a bus tomorrow the PLP would put a Momentum friendly candidate forward? Or would they put people like Chukka forward?

Given that, do you think the Labour Leadership rules and the PLP will need to be changed ASAP to allow future momentum friendly candidates to be put to the membership, or not?

Now, about your claim that Momentum has taken over the party. Evidence, please!

On the radio (R4) news a few mins ago, when an EU minister was asked about Britain Remaining in the EU he was quoted "the EU was born of believers, I'm a believer"
Quite what that means I don't really know, but I do wonder if they'll let May sweat a great deal more until she scuttles off into Grey Shoe Land.

Re: PLP I'm honestly not sure. Difficult to gauge how many of the 47 new Labour MPs would feel differently towards Corbyn. 35 needed for a nomination.

I still think that even if a large number of the 47 new candidates are momentum friendly JC will still want to change the rules to allow momentum friendly candidates to be put to the membership in perpetuity. It's quite reasonable for him to want to do so given how clear it is that the PLP have been dramatically out of step with the grass roots for 30 years, at least. (Some say 100 years.)

Is the change that corbyn wants to make not more just a change to the automatic re-selection rules?

[url= https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2017/06/22/08/foster-may.jp g" target="_blank">https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2017/06/22/08/foster-may.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Must stop eating those wasps.

The tension in her hands is worrying..

Is the change that corbyn wants to make not more just a change to the automatic re-selection rules?

I think they want/need/desire 'Trigger ballots' as opposed to automatic re-selection plus fewer nominations required from PLP for Leadership ballots to the membership.

Why would Momentun *not* want that? Also, it's pretty hard to logically argue against.

Jeebus!

That picture up there

Foster is the boss there & no mistake!

Dear me. The Maybot is really, really looking like a badly made up extra in an old Hammer Horror film, isn't she?

How long will this very public humiliation go on for? Even I'm starting to feel sorry for her

How long will this very public humiliation go on for?

Only reason she is still in place is no one wants the poisoned chalice. I thought chances were she would be gone pretty quick but no one seems to want the job. Which I think says something about the Brexit mess.

likewise, after her shocking performance in the GE i was sure she'd get her marching orders very quickly. hey ho. it all just has to run it's course i guess.

She's being kept on to be the fall guy.

bikebouy - Member

he was quoted "the EU was born of believers, I'm a believer" Quite what that means I don't really know

It means there's not a trace of doubt in his mind, and he couldn't leave the EU if he tried.

This Momentum red peril paranoia is getting so old. The election showed that eveb *if* Corbyn is being controlled by Momentum (remotely?) it's not a turn off to the electorate. Nor was the manifesto.

likewise, after her shocking performance in the GE i was sure she'd get her marching orders very quickly. hey ho. it all just has to run it's course i guess.

It was said straight away that the last thing anyone needed was a leadership election, so she's been told to get TF on wiv it and everything else can wait!

This Momentum red peril paranoia is getting so old. The election showed that eveb *if* Corbyn is being controlled by Momentum (remotely?) it's not a turn off to the electorate. Nor was the manifesto.

I don't believe the majority of the electorate were even aware of Momentum. The newspapers focused on Corbyn's history with the IRA as they thought that would make more impact. Ask any 18-21 year old if they know who momentum is and you'll get blank faces.

Personally I hope her yeast infection clears up and she stops taking out her anger on us poor proles.

Isn't Momentum just 'the party membership' anyway? They may disagree with other party members, but that's allowed isn't it?

Is this an accurate description of Momentum?

[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum_(organisation) ]Wiki[/url]

Isn't Momentum just 'the party membership' anyway?

Not necessarily. We just had our labour MP overturn a tiny majority of 300 to a labour majority of 5000. James is certainly not a Corbynite, by any stretch of the imagination. But neither has he said anything against him (Turnham-esque?). The momentum lot did try and get established and cause a bit of mischief, and then we had [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39770703 ]this.[/url]. They both got about as far as each other, and were equally well received by the local labour party.

You can't just rock up and overturn an MP or candidate who has a strong relationship with the local party, and impose your own. It doesn't work like that

Isn't Momentum just 'the party membership' anyway? They may disagree with other party members, but that's allowed isn't it?

Yup, they're members and it's perfectly reasonable for them to want a PLP that's inline with their views and rules that make it easier for a leader with their views to get onto the Leadership Ballot.

Which surely supports the idea that they might well implement those changes.

it's not a turn off to the electorate. Nor was the manifesto.

I think a *lot* of people saw through the giveaway/pork barrel manifesto. I know serious Corbyn supporters who didn't believe he could do it. I also know serious Corbyn supporters who don't believe Corporation tax revenue is in-elastic. I'd have thought floating voters would be even more skeptical.

Lifer - Member
This Momentum red peril paranoia is getting so old. The election showed that eveb *if* Corbyn is being controlled by Momentum (remotely?) it's not a turn off to the electorate. Nor was the manifesto.

outofbreath - Member
Is the change that corbyn wants to make not more just a change to the automatic re-selection rules?
I think they want/need/desire 'Trigger ballots' as opposed to automatic re-selection plus fewer nominations required from PLP for Leadership ballots to the membership.

Why would Momentun *not* want that? Also, it's pretty hard to logically argue against.

Yup, they're members and it's perfectly reasonable for them to want a PLP that's inline with their views and rules that make it easier for a leader with their views to get onto the Leadership Ballot.

Which surely supports the idea that they might well implement those changes.

Now, about your claim that Momentum has taken over the party. Evidence, please!

I think a *lot* of people saw through the giveaway/pork barrel manifesto. I know serious Corbyn supporters who didn't believe he could do it. I also know serious Corbyn supporters who don't believe Corporation tax revenue is in-elastic. I'd have thought floating voters would be even more skeptical.

Just to confirm, we're talking about the party that substantially increased its number of seats, and confounded every prediction made at the start of the campaign?

Just to confirm, we're talking about the party that substantially increased its number of seats, and confounded every prediction made at the start of the campaign?

Still didn't win. I didn't vote for him for the reasons oob states.

Just to confirm, we're talking about the party that substantially increased its number of seats, and confounded every prediction made at the start of the campaign?

No, we are talking about the total cluster **** that May is making, you are getting sidetracked by a tory boy desperately trying to distract from what a complete shambles the tories are in.

I think a *lot* of people saw through the giveaway/pork barrel manifesto. I know serious Corbyn supporters who didn't believe he could do it. I also know serious Corbyn supporters who don't believe Corporation tax revenue is in-elastic. I'd have thought floating voters would be even more skeptical

Aaand yet Corbyn has a 7pt lead over May now?

And the Tories are so terrified they'd lose an election right now that they are being played like kippers by the DUP ?

In fact, given that Labour's manifesto promised more for 95% of people, oob's assertion must have something in it given the result, even after correcting for tribalism and the press!

I´d agree democracy is quite a hard thing to argue against!

Well it is. PLP moderates can hardly say "We have to have these rules because the membership can't be trusted to pick a leader." I'm not quite sure what argument they could employ. It feels kind of inevitable to me.

Just to confirm, we're talking about the party that substantially increased its number of seats, and confounded every prediction made at the start of the campaign?

That's right. The party that, even with a pork barrel giveaway Manifesto, failed to get anywhere near a party that's spent 7 years doing unpopular stuff with a leader everyone agrees is worse than useless.

Rockape63 - Member

I don't believe the majority of the electorate were even aware of Momentum.

I think a lot of people are [i]aware[/i] of them, since the press has made a ludicrous noise about them. Show my dad a picture of a Labour rally with 5000 people and he'll say "they're all Momentum". But Labour has 517000 members, Momentum has 24000 meaning that in any given town they have about enough members to take over an Argos.

with a leader everyone agrees is worse than useless.

In fact, I went back to the "is May about to call an election thread" and there are some absolute classic predictions in there.

jekkyl - Member

very clever.
Labour are all over the place at the moment and in no place to wage a GE campaign, let alone one in 2 months! but at least it means we will get to hear Corbyn's policies unfettered by media bias and freely heard through the media. Time to get your finger out Jezzer!

stumpyjon - Member

Well looks like the Lib Dems are the only credible option left.....

Obvious move on May's part really, she can't lose, if she gets kicked out she dodges Brexit, if she wins with a bigger majority (highly likely) she won't be having to fight an election in 2020 just as the Brexshit bomb is going off.

Binners was uncharacteristically pessimistic 😉

Tories to win.
Labour to take a hammering.
Libs to win back a fair chunk of what they lost.

Bang on!

Also: UKIP finally put out of its misery as its vote is reduced to 2 old blokes and a woman who shouts at buses. All the UKIP votes going Tory to deliver an absolutely enormous majority. Labour reduced to 100 seats. Corbyn still refuses to resign and all the Momentum muppets elect him as leader again

I also know serious Corbyn supporters who don't believe Corporation tax revenue is in-elastic. I'd have thought floating voters would be even more skeptical

The reality is recent elections shows you win them by selling dreams be it bring back control or tax the rich. Whether the goal is achievable is not that important it just has to be something people want to achieve ;they dont seem to concern themselves much with the details of HOW.
]]the reality is Corbyn mantra of more inclusion, helping out everyone and making the rich pay a little more - for the many not the few- was popular

We will have to wait till the next election to see if it is achievable

AlexSimon - Member

In fact, I went back to the "is May about to call an election thread" and there are some absolute classic predictions in there.

I was happy to be so wrong tbh. I think the only bit I got right was saying Corbyn was right to back the vote for the election, while a lot of people were saying it was madness. Oh and called my own seat right when electoral calculus were saying it'd probably go tory.

It's fun reading pre-election newspaper articles though.

She/or Davies to have an interesting meeting this evening over citizenship rights, the EU have published thier agenda [url=

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/citizens-rights-essential-principles-draft-position-paper_en.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjftIiRjdLUAhUhAcAKHXRdBQ4QFggfMAE&usg=AFQjCNHqZaAKHFxinK0enNKocyx2Jk-UIA ]here" title="GOOGLE.CO.UK" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" >

GOOGLE.CO.UK "https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url= https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/citizens-rights-essential-principles-draft-position-paper_en.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjftIiRjdLUAhUhAcAKHXRdBQ4QFggfMAE&usg=AFQjCNHqZaAKHFxinK0enNKocyx2Jk-UIA ]here"

[/url] so it will be a laugh to see what crock may and Davis spout tomorrow about it as it sets out the EU position very clearly, all EU citizens in the UK and all UK citizens in EU will be fully protected as they are currently, no iff's, no but's.

There's no room for manuvre there, it's perfectly proper and reasonable. All the UK government can do is agree with it, unless they are serious about the 'no deal' scenario which would displace or put millions of people into poverty.

Meanwhile may refused to publicly reassure anybody over this issue and has not said a word about looking after UK expatriates.

So we have one left of centre/anti-austerity (sic) party advocating lowering corporation tax and afraid to raise MRT for high earners (for good reason) and another that favours raising both.....hmmm.....

One in power and one potentially - heaven help us all - could be in power. Or perhaps this reflects the fact that one is showing some sense despite the silly rhetoric and the other a total lack of it. Who knows?

But would be interestng to see the lack of sense option actually being applied, not least to see how people react to the lower wages and high prices that would ensue. Be careful what you wish for....Brexshit should have told folk that.....

The Commission should have full powers for the monitoring and the Court of Justice of the European Union should have full jurisdiction corresponding to the duration of the protection of citizen's rights in the Withdrawal agreement.

Does this mean until everyone currently residing here dies [ or their offspring/spouses] the EU and the court of Justice are the ultimate arbitrators of our law?

Aaand yet Corbyn has a 7pt lead over May now?
And the Tories are so terrified they'd lose an election right now that they are being played like kippers by the DUP ?

...and yet I can't help but think that Chukka and a sane shadow cabinet would have beaten May by a landslide. (Except there wouldn't have been an election because she'd never have dared to take them on.)

...and I don't think the Tories are scared of losing at all. This is a superb time to be in opposition. If Corbyn is the one on 310 seats in the Autumn he's going to look back on the last two years of nightmare as the good old days! What the tories are scared of is another hung parliament where they're in the hot seat. And that looks highly likely.

The reality is recent elections shows you win them by selling dreams be it bring back control or tax the rich.

In my view what Corbyn/Trump/Brexit show is that if you think you're going to lose you can promise Unicorns. In the last elections I can think of all the parties who thought they might win kept it relatively real. (Clinton/Miliband/Cameron)

So we have one left of centre/anti-austerity (sic) party advocating lowering corporation tax and afraid to raise MRT for high earners (for good reason) and another that favours raising both.....hmmm.....

Favours? I'm not so sure. The one who is in power has to openly accept the need for competitive corp tax and competitive MRT for high earners. The one who thinks he's gonna lose isn't constrained by reality in his promises.

Does this mean until everyone currently residing here dies [ or their offspring/spouses] the EU and the court of Justice are the ultimate arbitrators of our law?

I interpret that as yes in the context of EU citizens currently living in an EU country that is not thier original country.

I belive it doesn't make any allowances for British people who might want to move country within the EU after the deal is signed off.

But that's just how i read it, so those Brits who are already living on the mainland are protected, and those EU citizens living in the UK won't be left high and dry.

But it makes no allowances for those British who might want to live in another EU country in future.

Again that's just my interpretation.

I am not sure the brexit voters want the EU to be able to dictate rules* to us for the next 80 years or so.

* that is what they will say

In the last elections I can think of all the parties who thought they might win kept it relatively real.

It might also show that being incredibly pessimistic [ or realistic if you prefer] is not that inspirational
I am not sure we are disagreeing much just emphasising different aspects of the same thing

outofbreath - Member

...and yet I can't help but think that Chukka and a sane shadow cabinet would have beaten May by a landslide

The Chuka who pulled out of the leadership election because he hadn't realised that being leader would mean getting lots of press scrutiny? That Chuka?

The Chuka who pulled out of the leadership election because he hadn't realised that being leader would mean getting lots of press scrutiny? That Chuka?

Yes him, he'd harvest votes hand over fist.

Cameron and Osborne just argued that we would be in peril [ post the EU] and the only money that stayed safe was my kids piggy bank. It was all they ever said and there was nothing positive about the EU

The whole Remain campaign was simply shouting "racist". That easily lost them the 2pc that mattered.

A better 'Cameron' example of what I'm talking about would be the closing days of the 2015 election. Suddenly out of nowhere Cameron promised an unrealistic additional wedge for the NHS, dwarfing what Labour were offering. From the timing I'm pretty sure that was his Unicorn promise. He thought he was going to lose, or end up in a coalition - either way he'd never be held to his promise.

Oops, did you mean that? I thought it was tax issues.....

Yes him, he'd harvest votes hand over fist.

Of course he wouldn't - he would just be another middling character with no proper labour policies.
Corbyn got votes because of who is is and what his policies are.

ooooof on TV now Mays campaign paying voters to vote after being canvassed by a call centre ...actual film footage of em doing it.....estimates of 20 million people being contacted?

Of course he wouldn't - he would just be another middling character with no proper labour policies.

Like Blair. 😀

Corbyn got votes because of who is is and what his policies are.

Corbyn lost because of who he is and what his policies are.

option actually being applied, not least to see how people react to the lower wages and high prices that would ensue. Be

My take home has been going down for the last few years, I've not noticed prices going down either

Like Blair.

Yes, like Blair, bloody awful.

Corbyn lost because of who he is and what his policies are.

Nope.

Mmmm... And because he wasn't the Tories

Chukka is a busted flush. Starmer on the other hand is much more the real deal. Come to think of it, if we put Starmer and Hammond in a room and told them to sort out the Brexshit mess together and ignore the idiots around them, we might have some progress. No chance, sadly....

Starmer on the other hand is much more the real deal. Come to think of it, if we put Starmer and Hammond in a room and told them to sort out the Brexshit mess together and ignore the idiots around them, we might have some progress. No chance, sadly....

Indeed. The referendum divided the conservatives and to a slightly smaller extent Labour too, both in public and in private. Wife and I were talking the other day about what it would be to have some kind of cross party package to make the least worst outcome for all of this -whoever is in government in 2 years time we are all going to suffer for it. Starmer is the most able person to manage this IMHO.

I would have thrown Angus Robertson - despite his dodgy grasp on what's good for Scotland - in the mix too, but the Scots decided to elect a Tory instead. Democracy is a funny thing isn't it?

IIRC corbyn actually got more votes than Blair.

There is no doubt at allin any same analysis that Corbyn was a vote winner - despite the co ordinated campaign against him by most of the press and a large part of his own party

Those that oppose Corbyn within his own party are not " moderates" - they are out of touch right wingers. Corbyn sits firmly in the centre left tradition of the labour party and his policies would sit comfortably with most european centre left parties.

Starmer on the other hand is much more the real deal.

Not really heard much of him but he went to RGS so he must be good.

Angus Robertson

Back in the Autumn, no doubt.

Stop talking sense THM

they are out of touch right wingers.

Which would make de-selecting them even more reasonable.

IIRC corbyn actually got more votes than Blair.

Hmmm. Teresa May got more votes than Blair, is she a vote winner? In 1997 Blair got 418 seats, an increase of 145 seats. This time Labour got 262 an increase of 30.

There is no doubt at all in any same analysis that Corbyn was a vote winner

I think he was a liability and any other Labour front bench/leader since (and including) Kinnock would have won last week. In the absence of a 'control' candidate we'll never know for sure.

outofbreath - Member

Angus Robertson
Back in the Autumn, no doubt.

Predicting a government collapse? 😆 Or just a by election?

outofbreath - Member

IIRC corbyn actually got more votes than Blair.
Hmmm. Teresa May got more votes than Blair, is she a vote winner

I think it's crazy to say corbyn was as successful as blair there, but momentum(in the literal sense) was on his side. if the election was today, we'd be waking up to a corbyn led gov.

To deny his campaign wasn't successful on the other hand is just mental. he's absolutely consolidated control and unified his party, at least publicly. context is everything.

I think he was a liability and any other Labour front bench/leader since (and including) Kinnock would have won last week. In the absence of a 'control' candidate we'll never know for sure.

With the same manifesto? Or for eg Ed Millibands manifesto?

People, would still have to (make the mistake of putting/) put an x against his name Joe, and that is a massive, some would say crazy, ask.

There is making a silly choice and there's making a delusional one - not a great choice really....

IIRC corbyn actually got more votes than Blair.

[img] ?w=540&ssl=1[/img]

IIRC corbyn actually got more votes than Blair.

depends on the year of comparison

Corbyn 2017 12,874,985
Blair 1997 13,518,167
Blair 2001 10,724,953
Blair 2005 9,552,436
Brown 2010 8,606,527
Miliband 2015 9,347,304

the swing is wrong ^^^ swing to Corbyn was 9.6%
and the swing to blair was 8.8 in 97

Ta Klunk

That shows the reality of this

Chukka and his ilk would have got far less seats. Remember they tried being bland under Milliband.

depends on the year of comparison

He still lost.

Like Blair.

looking back, it's the best labour vote share since blair in 97, as per above. But going beyond that, you need to go back to harold wilson in 1966 to get higher, and before that, only other times it was higher was atlee in 1951 and 1950.

So, it's the 5th largest labour vote share in history, who'd've(I'm declaring that acceptable english) predicted that 3 months ago! 😆

eamhurtmore - Member
People, would still have to (make the mistake of putting/) put an x against his name Joe, and that is a massive, some would say crazy, ask.

There is making a silly choice and there's making a delusional one - not a great choice really....

CaptainFlashheart - Member
depends on the year of comparison
He still lost.

Its not hung though is it. The DUP will vote with the Tories to keep IRA sympathising Corbyn out.

Tories 318 Labour 266 - this is Corbyn's idea of winning

So how many days you think it'll last jambs? 150?

jambalaya - Member
Its not hung though is it. The DUP will vote with the Tories to keep IRA sympathising Corbyn out.

jambalaya - Member

Its not hung though is it

Oh, so you don't know what "hung parliament" means? Ah don't worry, it's probably not important to know things.

Northwind be very careful we have had enough of experts don't you know

And as a sign of how desperate the dup are they have still not managed to agree terms with may other than one vote at a time it seems. Who exactly is in charge of that relationship?

Chukka Umunna doesnt register with voters outside London and those that do know of him see him as fake labour. Time for that sort is gone.