MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Effectively sacked. Maybe there's more to this than has been reported but on the face of it the decision seems very harsh no matter how crass the comment was. (IMHO)
Presumably shared a joke at the expense of the victims with someone who took a dim view. This kind of very dark humour used to be a coping mechanism for some medics I knew who had to deal with horrendous stuff at work.
A pity for the officers - basically getting sacked for extreme naivety about 'private' messages on social media, rather than the joke itself.
Probably also linked to why two of my FB friends have changed their online names, to non-descript ones.
Advised by union.
There's Dark Humor and there's sensitivity, fine line between them IMO. I think to it was more about the sharing of info than the comments made..
The men, who have less than two years’ service, are clearly remorseful and have acknowledged the impact of what they had done; but when it really mattered the officers failed to show understanding and compassion for the victims and their families. I am confident that they would not go on to become well-conducted officers.“The police service has a national code of ethics that we expect officers and staff to abide by – including showing respect and courtesy. Officers and staff can be forgiven for making genuine mistakes, but the behaviour of these two officers was inexplicable and caused unnecessary distress to the families of those involved, for which we sincerely apologise.
What part of this exactly are you objecting to?
Do you not want them able to abide by national standards or do you not want them to have empathy for the victims or is it ok to film themselves at crime scenes and say ahitty things ?
FWIW I dont know what they said as the police have not released it - I assume to save the victims family distress
Olivia Pinkney, Sussex Police deputy chief constable, said the officers, who are new in service, were working on the cordon some distance from the scene.
She said the video did not show details of the site but a message attached to it was inappropriate and offensive
basically getting sacked for extreme naivety about 'private' messages on social media, rather than the joke itself.
Not what the description says of the offence
Not what the description says of the offence
My point was that in previous decades, I'm sure this kind of poor taste stuff still happened, but never made it beyond private conversation. Modern social media makes it much easier for it to reach the very people who should never see it.
If they had made the joke verbally, they might have been told to STFU by another officer if they stepped over the line, and it would probably have ended there.
There is a place for black humour as a coping mechanism. Facebook is not that place. Anywhere outside the police station is not that place.
What part of this exactly are you objecting to?
I'm saying the punishment didn't fit the crime.
Clearly every officer who fails to show "respect and courtesy" on one occasion in a private exchange doesn't get sacked or there'd be no policemen left so I see no contradiction with existing practice if these two had been given an alternative punishment.
I've read these two were off duty, maybe that's been incorrectly reported.
There's still plenty of gallows humour, it's a natural coping mechanism. Sharing it on social media isn't.
They were within their 2-year probationary training period so different regs apply, it's easier to get rid off trainees (that's the point) and they chose to resign as it looks better on their CV.
Harsh in a way but if you're a junior officer still in a probationary period it kind of shows you're not right for the role if you think that sort of behaviour is acceptable, I'd question their intelligence for starters let alone their judgement.
There's still plenty of gallows humour, it's a natural coping mechanism. Sharing it on social media isn't.
It was a private message to one individual.
Harsh in a way but if you're a junior officer still in a probationary period it kind of shows you're not right for the role if you think that sort of behaviour is acceptable, I'd question their intelligence for starters let alone their judgement.
Agree there may be some missing info here. Perhaps they were rubbish in other ways. Also if they *were* on duty and near the scene then the taking of a selfie is not on and perhaps another indicator they were unsuitable.
There is a place for black humour as a coping mechanism. Facebook is not that place. Anywhere outside the police station is not that place.
I think the whole 'social media' aspect is probably what has led to them being hung out, If they had posted publicly, then I think it would be fair - but to me a private message is the same as an email, letter, or discussion in your living room - private.
As probationary police officers they should realise that nothing on Facebook is a private message to one person.
No email is private you have to assume they can be read by anyone, same with any social media.
Dignity and respect are expected at all times from our emergency services, sometimes some of them fail and the sack is seen as a warning to others.
Probably be 2 more pixelated heads on those tv docu soap shows soon
If they had posted publicly, then I think it would be fair - but to me a private message is the same as an email, letter, or discussion in your living room - private.
They sent it to someone who didn't want to receive it. How is that not a disciplinary issue?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shoreham-airshow-crash-police-officers-resign-over-human-barbecue-selfie-a6684256.html ]Shoreham Airshow crash: Police officers resign over 'human barbecue' selfie[/url]
Interesting side discussion on the Social Media side of things, lots of people quick to say things like "Social Media not the place for it", "it would have happened in a living room in the past" etc. Might be coming at this from a slightyl more mature viewpoint?
These guys were 22 and 23, they have probably been using FB and SM since they were about 13-14, young adults and especially teenaagers now never really experienced a world without social media, what might have been a private remark or said in a phone call (or even txt) in the past is now much more regularly exposed on SM as it is for a lot of people one of their default methods of communication.
I'm not trying to justify it, or let them off the hook, but I think we do have a slightly interesting situation to deal with regarding the manner in which the younger members of our society communicate and the expectations around how they conduct themselves online. It's not an issue we've had to deal with much in the past, because as you say, it might have been just between two people in private, or swiftly shut down by another person present, but that doesn't necessarily happen online, and of course there's the fact its recorded and a single remark can only be overheard by people nearby during the time it's being spoken, written online its open for longer and to a wider audience, and of course we think it's bonkers to post that kind of stuff on SM, but when it's pretty much one of your default methods of communicating it's a lot more normal to you.
Quite rightly sacked.
Probably also linked to why two of my FB friends have changed their online names, to non-descript ones.Advised by union.
It's interesting that all my French friends have fake Facebook names.
This is why I don't use social media, apart from web fora and then under an avatar.
[quote=outofbreath opined]There's still plenty of gallows humour, it's a natural coping mechanism. Sharing it on social media isn't.
It was a private message to one individual shared on social media
FTFY
If it was human barbecue then I doubt that would be acceptable to the serving emergency services staff who work on here
Perhaps they can confirm this?
Seems to me its not that funny and it is certainly not respectful
as for social media WhoTF films themselves doing and saying that and sends it to someone? I would question the judgement of that individual
from that link above -
Deputy Chief Constable Olivia Pinkney said at the time that families of those killed in the disaster in August had been informed, with an apology for the “unnecessary distress”.
Um...why did they need to know about the message if it was private? Why not just deal with it internally and they would never have had to know.
Not condoning their actions, but its also a bit mean that the colleague who received the message immediately snitched on them!
O! M! G! Loads of ded pepol.LOLZ! 😆
Not really appropriate, is it?
Um...why did they need to know about the message if it was private? Why not just deal with it internally and they would never have had to know.
I thought that. It will offend the families, let's go straight away and show them!
It was a private message to one individual shared on social media
Junkyard, can you just explain exactly who you are saying it was shared with? We seem to have seen very different reports on this.
We have a social media inclusion in our company handbook. Havent read it tbh but i suspect it comes to bringging the companies name into disripute etc.
Personally i refuse to have any work colleagues on my social media and i dont have a dark sense of humour to cause too much offence.
These people were seriously stupid but i would not want them to lose their jobs over it even if i were personally affected.
If it was human barbecue then I doubt that would be acceptable to the serving emergency services staff who work on herePerhaps they can confirm this?
I am police hence responding- didn't say their specific comments or actions were acceptable because I don't think they are, only that we use gallows humour to deal with some otherwise horrific incidents that would scar us for life if we couldn't cope with it properly. They sent it via social media to another colleague who didn't think it was acceptable. You highlighted my post but I think we are in complete agreement, perhaps you read into mine that I was defending them which I'm not? Anyone who shows such poor judgement should not be trusted with the powers we police are given.
Bad call by the two individuals to make the comments. However, I think the decision to "invite them to resign" was possibly more motivated by the desire for the police to be seen to be politically correct than based on a judgement as to whether, with the right advice, guidance and supervision they had the potential to go on to make good officers.
Yes, you have to take responsibility for your actions, but you do need to be allowed to screw up sometimes.
Obviously YMMV.
Rich.
My dad was a prison officer for a long time. He saw stuff which made me retch. Upto the point where he had a bit of a breakdown (It was like he had parkinsons for 6mths - wierd) he dealt with it with 'gallows humour'.
I am not saying these people were using it as a coping mechanism, however if that is one of the traits of how they deal with things, it doesnt suprise me if the line becomes a little blurred and they make an error on the odd occassion.
As above, this reeks of appeasing the public rather than actually understanding the syptom.
what might have been a private remark or said in a phone call (or even txt) in the past is now much more regularly exposed on SM
According to the Sun it was sent via Snapchat where the messages automatically delete. In which case it was as private as a phone call and maybe more private than a txt. I don't know I don't use Snapchat.
Seems it came to light because someone they sent it to complained.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-twisted-shoreham-cops-face-6407155
I thought that. It will offend the families, let's go straight away and show them!
Is the reporting of disciplinary procedures within police forces which can result in dismissal usually banned?
Assuming that it isn't, would you suggest that the relatives finding out by reading a newspaper while waiting for a take-away meal or being passed on the information by an acquaintance, to give a couple of possible examples, is more acceptable than a sensitive carefully thought-out line of communication by more senior police officers?
Do you think it would have been better if Sussex Police had simply ignored the relatives and any hurt it might have caused, or at least waited until the relatives had found out and had been upset?
Do you think it would have been better if Sussex Police had simply ignored the relatives and any hurt it might have caused, or at least waited until the relatives had found out and had been upset?
Of course it is an odd one, as you say the families wouldn't have been upset if they'd never found out...(reminds me of that Dr who got done recently hiding cameras in toilets (literally in the toilet) when one of them fell into the bowl and there was footage on the camera of him placing it. Police raided his house and there were shelves of footage. They then had to find all the people who had been filmed and tell them, thereby taking them from blissful ignorance to - in some cases - traumatised)
Problem with that of course is that the police are then open to accusations of a cover up. And I think I know how most people on this forum would react to a story of a police cover up! Once they knew, the police were duty bound to go public and in fairness they did. Agree with the stuff posted about gallows humour - my sister is a doctor and the whole medical profession do it - you need it to be able to cope, but these guys were out of line and should have been sacked anyway for being too stupid to be cops.
but I think we do have a slightly interesting situation to deal with regarding the manner in which the younger members of our society communicate and the expectations around how they conduct themselves online
This. The latest generation of digital natives see the internet in very different ways from the rest of us. I'm already planning the conversations I will need to have with my 9 year old once he is properly unleashed onto the interweb..
These guys were 22 and 23, they have probably been using FB and SM since they were about 13-14, young adults and especially teenagers now never really experienced a world without social media,
Yes the digital natives/young adults I know are pretty aware of the impact of daft social media comments and the twitstorm that can accompany them and how it can affect their future prospects...
via Snapchat where the messages automatically delete.
but as all the young adults know you can screenshot the image to capture it
They will have been told countless times by various colleagues, supervisors, trainers and the Professional Standards Dept in the previous 18mths, I can also imagine that they were part of the Police family prior to signing on as PCs. The Police are not alone in dealing with people who put offensive/moronic/abusive posts on social media. No sympathy from me, the right decision, note that they are allowed to resign rather than instant dismissal. (I did 30 years as a Police Officer retiring this summer, black humour has its place but this isn't it)
The Police are not alone in dealing with people who put offensive/moronic/abusive posts on social media.
Still trying to understand if this was actually posted on social media....wasn't it just a private message? Not condoning it, but there is a big diffrrence...
posted on social media.
there is no such thing as a private message - internet 101
edit - it's like the difference between slander and libel. Even though you may think it's private it isn't becuase you have committed it to digital media.
I think even if they'd emailed/texted it, the content and timing showed a sufficient lack of judgment about making the comment in writing that they were always likely to end up with no jobs at the end of whatever disciplinary process they went through.
Whether or not it was a private message isn't really relevant as it was sent directly to a work colleague who complained.
Someone had to be blamed for the crash eh.
yes dez that was what it was all about Dez well spooted
Junkyard, can you just explain exactly who you are saying it was shared with? We seem to have seen very different reports on this
via social media as per my comment
@crashtest - I was assuming serviung folk would say it was out of order as well.
Shows the dangers of social media and a lack of common sense when combined.
MrsMC currently trains newly qualified social workers in child protection. There have been some proper social media train crashes, despite clear guidance being set out in their training and placements.
The individual they sent it to is definitely of the 'blue falcon' variety. Trio of dumbasses.
*declares interest. I'm from SbS and I saw the aftermath*
It's a mile from my home...
So the punishment may seem harsh - but joking about "a nice day to attend a BBQ" on snapchat or whatever it was,when it wasn't know how many had died, was a long way from the professional stds needed.
TBH, if it is the black humour that exists in the force and they keep it in the force, the I have no issues.
But it was a cheap shot at trying the instant fame that is so important. If one of their own had been killed, it would be very different. But it was just civvies.
Post the crash there have been just as many vile locals trying for their own claim to fame with the tragedy, whether is is talking to the red tops, or making self serving charity records.
11 locals died - and it nearly two weeks to release the names of all of them....
But it was a cheap shot at trying the instant fame that is so important.
That's not what happened is it?
but as all the young adults know you can screenshot the image to capture
I'm 52 and I spotted you could screen shot it, I've noticed many people automatically screen shot all snapchats just in case it's worth keeping.
The two where on their probationary / training period, if they are not smart enough to work out yo must be 100% squeaky clean then they are not smart enough to make the police force. There is a reason during probationary periods you are on 1 weeks notice.
moose - Member
The individual they sent it to is definitely of the 'blue falcon' variety.
Actually a true BF is one who screws up himself and drags others down with them. To apply the term to someone who has the moral courage and integrity to the public to confront and report what they consider to be disgraceful behaviour is disingenuous at best.
What would you consider to be an acceptable level of unacceptable behaviour?
It's interesting that all my French friends have fake Facebook names.
Shame we have to use our real names here!
Huh? I don't use my real name on FB, Twitter, here or anywhere else, most coppers I know have fake names on social media. Funnily enough some people resent going to prison and blame the people that caught them.
Copper being done up here in Nottinghamshire for careless talk on social media in the local news tonight - do they not teach them the rights and wrongs?
[quote=crashtestmonkey opined] Funnily enough some people resent going to prison and blame the people that caught them.
its almost as if they have no morals