MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Just seems to be a poor decision to shoot badgers, it is an emotive subject but it isn't going to work and who wants "marksmen" roaming the woods at night.
I am not a fan of Brian May either.
"marksmen" roaming the woods at night.
They already do. You live in a town I take it?
It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it.
They already do
where do you live???
Sounds like fun..
Where do i sign up?
where do you live???
Deepest, darkest Wales (and I'm referring to people shooting at night, not shooting badgers).
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles, popped a 12 bore at the occasional fox and on one occasion a couple of dogs.
The mass killing of badgers will be emotive.
[i]It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it. [/i]
that comment's made me sad.
if you treat choosing to kill anything en masse with the same amount of emotion as you do closing a gate someone left open then there's a problem, imo.
you may see it as necessary to do and therefore carry out the shooting but it's not something that should be done casually.
Anyway, re: the science - even the supporters seem to be a bit unclear as to what happens once a local population is killed. I guess we'll just wait and see.
My real issue is that havign started no-one will look at any future evidence of its effectiveness, they'll just try and keep their farms clear of badgers altogether, TB carrying or not.
It's just another job around the farm. Nothing emotive about it.
bit different from shooting the odd rabbit or fox though.
No one knows how many badgers there are, total wipeout is illegal, partial wipeout won't work, Animal movement controls despite the claims aren't great, go to a livestock market and see the nice germ mixing that goes on.
Remove a population all that happens is a migration to fill the void.
Throw into the mix that Glos County Council have voted to ban it on their land...
Sop to the NFU and that is about it, nothing to do with controlling badgers really.
you may see it as necessary to do and therefore carry out the shooting but it's not something that should be done casually.
I think that most people take no pleasure in the task might be a better way of putting it.
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles,
REALLY?
I knew folks who went lamping all the time..
that comment's made me sad.if you treat choosing to kill anything en masse with the same amount of emotion as you do closing a gate someone left open then there's a problem, imo.
What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually [i]breed[/i] real live animals, [i]en masse[/i], purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.
As a humourous aside, my local Wildlife Trust (with which I'm involved) organised a demonstration with Brian May. They asked everyone attending to wear black and white as a show of support...
I had to ask if the dress code was wise under the circumstance!
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles, popped a 12 bore at the occasional fox and on one occasion a couple of dogs.
I guess I'm not differentiating between shotguns and rifles. Most rifles are suppressed so you're just not aware of them. Shooting foxes at night is pretty routine near me and that's typically with shotguns.
Either way, people wandering about with guns at night is normal.
What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually breed real live animals, en masse, purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.
an obvious but good point!
As sad as it is in reality I think it's the right thing to do. TB is an awful thing to have in your herd.
Whether it'll rid TB is questionable.
Straw poll time - badgers or politicians?
I'd rather keep the badgers.
Straw poll time - badgers or politicians?
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I wonder idly if Brian May is opposed to the badger culling out of fear that they'll shoot him and his missus out of mistaken identity.
I'm sure that swivel eyed frothing at the mouth tory thing will start to infect cattle too, best to strike now before the infestation begins...
[i]What a daft thing to say! It may come as a surprise to you, but farms actually breed real live animals, en masse, purely so they can kill them, dismantle them and sell them in little plastic shrink-wrapped trays.[/i]
I think I knew that.
And it's something that I have thought about quite a lot. I do eat meat, but I expect that when I do eat it the animals have been kept in good conditions and treated with respect during their lives.
I also think the comment about casual killing applies equally to food animals as wild ones really?
Don't not do it, but think before you do and don't give them the same level of concern as you would a fence.
What odd statements this thread has generated.
People go shooting animals FOR FUN all the time you know. Even people who live in towns do this. Where I grew up in the country is was very common to see people wandering about with guns and even now when Ilive in a town I see people with rifles going hunting.
Killing animals is a normal part of owning a farm. I can't believe anyone who has worked on or a near a farm isn't familiar with the process. Vermin damage crops, kill 'em. Birds steal seed, kill 'em. Badgers...errm well I'm not sure what the problem with Badgers is but kill 'em. And obviously livestock's whole purpose is to be killed and eaten.
shooting badgers to the point of extinction (otherwise there's no point) is not
...the right thing to do...
finding a better solution is.
And it's something that I have thought about quite a lot. I do eat meat, but I expect that when I do eat it the animals have been kept in good conditions and treated with respect during their lives.
I'm sure beef cattle really value being treated with 'respect'! 😉
KILL EVERYTHING
People go shooting animals FOR FUN all the time you know. Even people who live in towns do this. Where I grew up in the country is was very common to see people wandering about with guns and even now when Ilive in a town I see people with rifles going hunting.
Certainly true. There are two groups though, those that seek permission to shoot for fun, and those that own farms and shoot because they have to. I don't doubt some of the latter enjoy it, but the ones I know don't.
No idea what the split is.
[i]I'm sure beef cattle really value being treated with 'respect'! [/i]
nothing tastes worse than a disgruntled Hereford 😉
I guess it's partly selfish - if the farmer cares about how their cattle are fed and the conditions they live in I'll get better quality meat at the end of the process.
I come from the fact that've have two herds, one has 36 cattle the other 29, both have just come through calfing and I'd hate to see any of them infected with TB.
We run an Organic Beef farm (2) it would mean all our cattle would need to be destroyed. It's taken 7 years to get the accreditation, it would take another 7 to clear up this mess if it hit.
There is there minor detail of deer, wild boar etc. If you kill all the badgers, do you then kill every other possible host?
nothing tastes worse than a disgruntled Hereford
Oh, I think you'll find Aberdeen Angus that has been 'dissed' tastes appalling. And there's nowt worse than disenfranchised Limousin!
I'll agree with you about feed quality, but happiness making better meat? That's just marketing bunkum designed to lure those "heart's-not-in-it" vegetarians that like the smell of frying bacon back into the fold as soon as they grow out of their silly fussy eating stage. 😉
Frankie say Arm The Badgers - Cull The Coalition!
I've heard it does with pork, albeit from a pork farmer, who takes the pigs out for a play and a quick game, then promptly... err... well you get the idea. I live in the Dales where it seems to be less of a problem, and we don't have a lot of farmers with guns in the woods at night, never mind professional marksmen. Though the local deerstalker would likely fall into that category.
End of the day its a pilot scheme, its complicated, it will only reduce the problem not solve it so a better solution is still in everyone's interest.
it will only reduce the problem not solve it so a better solution is still in everyone's interest.
thing is the evidence, suggests it might not reduce the problem but actually make things worse. If the trial was definitely going to reduce the problem, ie the evidence that killing badgers worked and all your doing is finding the best method, that would be one thing. But previous trials suggest that unless you kill a certain percentage (of an unknown number) then the problem gets worse.
Are badgers transported many tens of miles, or more, across the nation from farm to farm?
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The trial is definitely a good idea. I'm not for the unnecessary culling of badgers, if it wont help. But the trouble is there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence one way or the other.
Once the trial is done with, if there is proof that TB in the area is reduced then a more nationwide cull has to go ahead. The TB testing and movement laws are incredibly strict and can cripple a farm, even one without TB.
Had a TB test on our herd last week and we had one inconclusive (having never had a reactor, ever). Now we have to wait 60 days for another test before we can sell anything, and we had 7 bulls booked into a sale today. As we are a small farm it's cashflow issues like this that can cause a real headache, all for the sake of a cow that certainly doesn't actually have TB.
No I don't live in a town, in the 10 years I worked in agriculture never saw people roaming at night with rifles
Were you tucked up in bed by 7pm then?
Lamping is part of pest control/food for the table on most farms, a lot goes on in the springtime with lambing and the fox cubs being kicked out then another killing spree in late summer after harvest and its possible to drive on the stubble.
There is evidence that good welfare (I don't know if that means happiness, I don't know if livestock feels happiness) affect meat quality - or rather that stress adversely affects it (I think it is to do with the stress hormones given off). My wife has a masters in the subject (collecting blood samples at the point of slaughter isnt my idea of fun) and has spent a fair amount of time working for an abattoir / meat company on the back of it. It's one of the reasons they try to minimise the mixing of groups of pigs during transport and slaughter.
Twas on R4 The Life Scientific the other week - some statistician or other. The reasons behind the cull are flawed as the stats are being misinterpreted.
That said, badgers are asshats.
Beavers are worse...
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/beaver-kills-fisherman-in-belarus-29307209.html
If the science was more in favour, I'd be more in favour tbh. The meta I saw suggested that badgers are certainly a reservoir for bovine TB but not a very convincing standalone vector- so badgers alone probably don't give cattle tb on a large scale but moving clean cattle into an area that previously had infected cattle brings the badgers into play as an intermediary. For badgers to spread tb into totally new areas requires migration on a fairly large scale, which they don't do much unless they either lose a habitat or, ironically, because their social grouping gets messed up (for example) by culling.
Either way, few people seem to disagree that the main vector of bovine tb is cattle to cattle not badger to cattle.
The trial is definitely a good idea. I'm not for the unnecessary culling of badgers, if it wont help. But the trouble is there doesn't seem to be any clear evidence one way or the other.
very clear evidence that culling can help but that it will also make the problem worse. This cull as framed is a pointless waste of money.
Nobody else thing that "Shooting Badgers" would be a great name for a band?
If I was milking yes I could be tucked up in bed at 7, what's your point caller 😀
Lamping for rabbits or foxes is a bit different to hired marksmen going all out to kill the majority of badgers in a designated area.
Only know a few boys who kept rifles, one was a licensed culler and would go places like Whipsnade and shoot some of their herds, his trip to shoot Chinese water deer was memorable 😯 he would also go to Scotland regularly after deer.
Just seems to me that the evidence for a cull is a bit vague. Anyway quality shaving kit will come down in price 😉
Nobody else thing that "Shooting Badgers" would be a great name for a band?
Not as good as "Stabbing Beavers"...
"12gauge Badger Cull" works well as a band name
So how's it going to work if it goes nationwide? Will armed badger shooters be allowed to roam at will on private property?
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http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa362/nickyg1122/honey.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
"Killing badgers eh? I've got something to say about that, but first I'm going to eat this highly venomous snake.....raw"
Not as good as "Stabbing Beavers"..
Someone was killed by a beaver the other day [url= http://www.****/news/article-2307572/Beaver-attack-Fisherman-killed-BEAVER-tried-photo-lake-Belarus.html ]mailclickbait[/url]
Either way, few people seem to disagree that the main vector of bovine tb is cattle to cattle not badger to cattle.
Reminds me of the foot and mouth outbreak, with farmers still moving cattle about in the first weeks.
While I'm in favour of population control when it comes to protecting habitat, Certainly not in favour of culling just because something interferes with what we Humans are doing.
So what happens if it is not successful?
very clear evidence that culling can help but that it will also make the problem worse. This cull as framed is a pointless waste of money.
A bigger cull?
A question... has this been tried anywhere else in the world? and if so what were the results?. I cant fathom the reasoning behind this and it does look not well thought out, even listening to the minister this morning on the radio i felt non the wiser. It seems like a pretty extreme experiment to me but im not going to dismiss it on that basis alone. There appeared to be talk of reducing numbers in the test areas by 5000 which in the grand scheme of things doesnt seem a huge number ( and i dont want to get into the numbers game thanks). I kind of like the grumpy badger and would rather not see them culled but if it can prove the case either way then perhaps its a worthwhile nasty pill to swallow ( please dont start on the godwins for goodness sake). Oh and for the record yes i eat meat and i do live in the country and i have hit a badger on my bike (i lost and he was VERY ANGRY! 🙂 )
True story:
I was at work one night on the rapid response car and received a call to an address in the middle of nowhere, the call was a 'chest pains' emergency and i set off with haste....came round a corner and hit a badger....i didnt stop, i was being sent to a person potentially having a heart attack after all.
When i arrived on scene the patient was describing cardiac type pain and showing adverse clinical signs (pale, clammy skin etc)....an ambulance was sent to convey this gentleman to hospital.
When the crew arrived they said they'd passed a badger that was in a terrible state down the lane, looked paralysed and was dragging its back legs....they hadnt stopped either due to the nature of this call, i said that i had hit the badger on my way to the emergency and one of the crew said that i wasnt needed here anymore and should go back and sort it out.
I drove down the lane and came across the badger, it was alive but looked a mess.
I reckoned the kindest thing was to put it down so i looked in the boot for something solid to hit it on the head with....i found a crow bar from the kit we carry to help gain entry to locked properties and set about the wounded animal....turns out a badger is quite a hardy animal and repeated blows to the head with a crow bar was not killing said animal quickly or humanely....i had also become aware that i was stood in the road next to an ambulance car in full paramedic costume wielding a crow bar above a dying badger, it wouldnt look great if another car came along and saw this macabre scene....i quickly moved the badger to the front of the car and positioned its head under one of the front wheels.
I got in the car and drove forward....the sound wasnt pleasant but it did the trick, the badger was dead and i moved it into an adjoining field.
Later that night i bumped into the crew at A&E, the guy who asked me to go back and sort it out asked how the badger was....i recounted my story to him but stopped when i noticed his face aghast at what i was saying....turns out when he said to go back and sort it out he meant take it to a vet....i had understood his instruction to 'sort it out' in the more sinister faux gangster movie interpretation of the phrase.
Oh well.
Anyway back on topic, there have always been various culls at various points in history, some are successful and some have unforeseen repercussions....i cant see too much of a problem with this, i dont see what benefits a huge number of badgers has and why their numbers cant be trimmed.
has anyone thought about culling Brian May?
Love his guitar and songwriting work but Brian do shut up. A gold pig to anyone who comes up with the best Queen song badger cull crossover title or lyric.
Tie your Badger down?
Find me a badger to cull. etc etc. 🙂
I'm In Love With My Badger
Fat Bottomed Badgers
I Was Born To Love Badger
Need Your Badger Tonight
The Badger Must Go On
That's probably enough...
The Cull Will Go On... Too Much Love Will Kill Badgers... We Will Cull You... Erm... Who Wants to Love Forever?
Badgerian Rhapsody.
The wheels just came off this thread, didn't they.
Ooh, ooh!
Hammer To Fall.
On a more practical note, does anyone know any badger recipes?
Are you putting together a sett menu?
[b]BOOM!!! [/b]
😆
(-:
Found one for you. [url= http://www.gastronomydomine.com/?p=184 ]Badger Stew[/url].
(This is not an instruction, do not harass any Stewarts you may know.)
deviant, that's brilliant. A mate of mine had a similar story after he ran over a cat one night (when out lamping). No probs he thought, gets shotgun out of the boot. Out of cartridges so he had to use the gun as a club...
On a more practical note, does anyone know any badger recipes?
I was just thinking that. Can't be worse than the possum I ate in NZ.
Butcher near us deals in grey squirrels. Waste not, want not....
I've tried squirrels - I shoot about 3 or 4 a week in my wood... They're a bastard to skin - it's a proper 2-man job, it doesn't just 'peel' off like a rabbit's pelt.
All the meat is on the back legs, so I trimmed them, made a stock from the carcass and braised the thigh meat in the stock. Just enough to fill 2 small ramekins, topped with little puff pastry lids. Delicious.
Badgers are related to weasels... I can't imagine them being particularly tasty...
Fat Bottomed Badgers
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
It's quite clearly Fat Badgered Girls.
Have we had
"We will, we will brock you"
?
Shooting badgers..!?
Are they no longer content with (allegedly) spreading diseases..?
And who the bloody hell is selling them the guns..!?!?
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Keep your-badger alive!
Don't lose your head.
Another badger bites the dust.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.It's quite clearly Fat Badgered Girls.
I absolutely stand corrected.
I wouldn't dare shoot a badger, it might get angry.
[i]repeated blows to the head with a crow bar was not killing...[/i]
[i]...I got in the car and drove forward....the sound wasnt pleasant but it did the trick[/i]
I found this story far more enjoyable with Brian May replacing the badger.
Can I get away with just pronouncing Bijou a bit like badger? Badjou?
Jeez, you're pretty rough on your badgers down south.
Up here in the real north they are treated with concern and care just like cyclists.
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A culled badger in Gateshead recently:
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(to be pronounced in local accent)
Queen songs:
Keep YourBadger Alive
The March of the B lack Badger
Killer Badger
Badger on the Sidewalk
Cougar, you nearly killed the Internet back there... 😆
Badgers don't need culling round here, they cull themselves by not learning the green cross code.
Pardon my ignorance but can't cattle be imunised against TB like we do, or is bovine TB a totally different disease with no imunisation available? Or more likely, is there imunisation available but 'it costs too much'?
Or more likely, is there imunisation available but 'it costs too much'?
basically... it is a bit more complicated, but basically money.
KILL EVERYTHING
Yeh. If its bugging you and causing a problem with something you want to achieve then kill it. We humans appear to be the boss of this place, and have designed it such that we are so focussed on our important goals and objectives that we destroy anything that stands in the way. I don't really see what badgers have that makes them an exception to the rule. Why are they more special. We have destroyed 'our' forests which gave us much more than badgers ever can do. Screw the badgers, swat them with that mechanical killing device! ...and do it NOW before the uprising begins
[i]Vaccination against bTB is explicitly forbidden in the EU legislation on disease control
(Council Directive 78/52/EEC) and implicitly also in intra-Union trade legislation, as
vaccination is not compatible with the provisions for testing and herd qualification (Council
Directive 64/432/EEC). EU legislation is fully in line with OIE standards on international
trade and can be changed only by the European Parliament and the Council.[/i]
EU legislation. Hardly surprising UKIP got so many votes is it?
Memory is a bit hazy, but I'm sure I heard something relatively recently on radio four about development of a new bovine TB vaccine that wouldn't create false positives. Maybe putting some funding into further development might be the way to go.
I grew up on a farm during the 1960's and never saw a badger. Now dead badgers at the side of the road are far more common than dead hedgehogs. We never had TB on the farm either.
EU legislation is fully in line with OIE standards on international
trade and can be changed only by the European Parliament and the Council.
So the UK can stay in europe and work to get this changed to our benefit or leave the EU and accept we have no say in such rules.