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@richmtb said
I think things can be "Universally Acclaimed" (ok universal among say the Anglosphere) but its okay to not personally like anything in particular. But personal preference doesn't override objective quality, which definitely exists for most "culture".
But then the examples you go on to mention are subjective not objective. They must be because some other people will not agree with your opinion.
I wonder if we went to the same gig?
Sorry, I missed this. Seemingly not, I was at The Pulse tour (the one where the seating collapsed, I was in the rebuilt section on the next date).
oops, hit quote instead of edit.
i meant 1968. not 1868 lol
TBH I’d have appreciated it more if it was 1868 post futuristic 🙂
I went to the Momentary Lapse of Reason tour at Maine Road in 1988. Before that the Dark Side of the Moon tour at Sheffield City Hall in 1971 (before the album was finalised and released so mostly earlier material - my favourite period).
Both fantastic experiences.
When reading books are you not similarly constrained by the vision of the author?
No, how can I be? I’m reading words that describe certain things, but my own mind makes a visual reference that may be significantly different from what the author had in mind.
Sometimes an author describes a location in such a way that I get a vivid picture of the place, and in one particular instance a film that was made of the book actually used the place I imagined as the actual location in the film!
The book is Stardust, by Neil Gaiman, and when I first read it, and the description of the village of Wall, I instantly thought of Castle Combe, and I was in the village, which is only five miles from where I live, when they were setting up to film there. I later met Neil at a book signing, and I asked him if he knew of Castle Combe when he wrote the book, and he said no, it was pure coincidence!
Ah but he probably watched Dr Dolittle as a kid 🙂
5th element which is a great comic romp. Star Wars I can't take seriously
Why not take it as a comic romp also?
My mate was a Saudi abasador's son
I think a mate's dad had one of those in metallic orange.
TBH 5th element is a visual treat, Jean Paul Gaultier’s vision of the clothing just blows my mind.
Star Wars is more realistic in a gritty dystopian view of the future/past.
Dont think any of them are meant to taken seriously:-)
I like what I like. Some other people like some of what I like, I like some of what other people like. I am glad we don't all like the same stuff, that everyone else likes.I would'nt like that at all
See, I like Star wars, and doctor who, but take it for what it is..childrens sci-fi.. to try to make it 'high brow' is a tall order.
That said, Andor is brilliant sci-fi - the best starwars 'thing' yet, by a very wide margin.
They aren't "children's sci-fi," they're family sci-fi.
I stand corrected 😉
star wars is a good example of a very simple story.
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
Zoos. Just don't get them. Large animals going slowly nuts in enclosures the size of tennis courts, or birds in tiny cages.
star wars is a good example of a very simple story.
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
Yep, I suppose some things work well as entertainment but it’s a fine line of being too clever that the majority of audience can’t follow what’s going on, Shakespeare has a lot of rudeness and humour as well as it’s plot so something for everyone.
I think sometimes you want entertainment and it doesn’t need to be deep.
I look forward to how the Dune films continue as that went deeeeep 🙂
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
I looked it up. Intriguing and I've not read any of his books yet. But I tend to find books that have a lot of abstract fictional place names and concepts or are too far removed from 'normality' in structure hard going. Same kind of thing with historic biographies - so many names, dates an places to try to remember as I go. It's not because I'm not interested, I just process that info less easily, working memory for some things more than others.
I could say 'nah, it's too detailed!" which sounds like a critique of the writer. I'd really mean 'too much mental effort, give me something that feels less like hard work'. There are books that are still an effort to get through but it's a good effort, like a climb it's rewarding. Reading one at the mo that feels like it'll be worth it, slow going but the complexity is more in the landscapes and emotive aims.
So I think a lot of what we say is good/bad or interesting/boring relates to our cognitive function type as much as the 'acclaimed value'.
Zoos. Just don't get them. Large animals going slowly nuts in enclosures the size of tennis courts, or birds in tiny cages.
Or also many endangered animals involved in successful breeding programs to save them from extinction.
Depends which way you look at it really. In reality, it's probably both.
The documentary about Chester Zoo on channel 4 is a good watch and will leave you in no doubt about the commitment and dedication of the staff to conservation cause.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-secret-life-of-the-zoo
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
Complexity is not necessarily a good thing, especially if it comes at the expense of emotional engagement.
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
Based on the Wikipedia plot summary it sounds like the very worst elements of the rebooted Star Wars stuff.
The original trilogy was very simple. The rebooted stuff threw in lots of complexity, McGuffins and generally deviated from SW lore so much that it spoiled it.
I think art for some is 'type 2' fun. It's not immediately nice, but the challenge it poses is stimulating. Everyone has their own kink.
Celebrity strictly bake gogglebox = bike park.
5 hour operas in German = bikepacking the Munros.
This is a group where people pedal around muddy hills in the rain and call it fun. I'd imagine most of us have unorthodox tastes!
star wars is a good example of a very simple story.
compare it to the depth and complexity of say " the algebraist"
I reckon I could make a pretty convincing argument that the Star Wars universe as at least as deep and complex a world as anything Banks has created. The Algerbrist for instance has a pretty standard religio-hegemonic baddy, (a common theme in Banks works) an 'unknowable' group of aliens that act in accordance with Clarke's dictum of any advanced society not unlike the Jedi and Sith operate in SW. and the hero is revealed to be a bit of rebel. Banks is a brilliant world-builder and story-teller without a doubt, but his plots are pretty straightforward. Anyway, some of the longest surviving stories we have are pretty simple: Gilgamesh, Odyssey...
Zoos - see, I should be shamed into liking them because of the conservation work? It is a fair comment. Only put this up as an example as they are in the news today, many struggling due to increasing costs. Yet whenever I visit one, they all have the same promo animals of lions, elephants, large sea mammals or birds all suffering for the cause. Kind of think of Zoos as Victorian cultural relics that should really be stopped.
Zoos - see, I should be shamed into liking them because of the conservation work? It is a fair comment. Only put this up as an example as they are in the news today, many struggling due to increasing costs. Yet whenever I visit one, they all have the same promo animals of lions, elephants, large sea mammals or birds all suffering for the cause. Kind of think of Zoos as Victorian cultural relics that should really be stopped.
I couldn't agree more. I spent a year in Kenya with the old job and it reinforced that point for me, unless there is a genuine conservation aim, e.g. reintroduction to the wild, then they should be wound down.
Yet things like Star Wars get good reviews while the whole saga is farcical bollocks by any objective measure such how fast you can travel through space, how much use wings are in a vacuum, how you could limit the length of a lazer sword etc. It's laughable.
Its set in a galaxy far, far away. You're thinking with your earthling blinkers on.
I don't think there's anything that's universally recognised as great.
I don't know what the threshold is for 'mainstream popularity', but it's nowhere near 100% of the population.
At a guess, the proportion of the population that goes out of its way to watch football is what, less than 30%. Ballet? Less than 0.1%.
Not liking these things doesn't make you special, it makes you ordinary. Sorry!
Zoos - see, I should be shamed into liking them because of the conservation work? It is a fair comment. Only put this up as an example as they are in the news today, many struggling due to increasing costs.
its a missed opportunity that they don't have a meat counter in the visitor shop
Mac - we visited one in Belgium years ago. In the cafe they had various Zoo sourced meats.
If you think The Beatles were just a proto-boyband you need to listen again. They grew organically to change culture in this country with their wit and innovation, creating their own material musically and lyrically that has influenced/been copied by the succeeding generations of musicians, not just a record company created cash cow based on appeal to teenage girls. It's fine if you don't like them but to dismiss them in this way is ignorant of their true influence on popular culture
its a missed opportunity that they don't have a meat counter in the visitor shop
Indeed...
Mac - we visited one in Belgium years ago. In the cafe they had various Zoo sourced meats.
see thats the kind of can-do attitude modern zoos need. Diversify - come for the penguins, stay for the bush-tucker challenge, leave with a fur hat.
But then the examples you go on to mention are subjective not objective. They must be because some other people will not agree with your opinion.
What I'm saying is that its not just "subjective" there is definitely objective good or bad in pretty much every medium.
Someone disagreeing with something or having a different view doesn't change this.
If I said "Jaws the Revenge is the best Jaws film" or "Jurassic Park 3 is so much better than the first one" that doesn't change the fact that the original films are objectively better it just means I'm wrong.
Art...or rather modern/contemporary art...like some of the drivel that Hockney has painted or the likes of 3 random blocks of colour on a canvas and people fawn over it....weird...IMHO
See, I really rate Hockney, the bold colours and great appreciation of light and shade, really speak to me.
This is 1868, though, can it really be considered modern ot over 60 years old? 🤔
That's why I typed 'some of the drivel that Hockney.....' My wife and I had a wander around his gallery at Salts Mill, some of the stuff, a child could have done in reception class. (The above picture isn't one of them..not my cup of tea but I'd not include that in my definition of 'crap art')
That's why I typed 'some of the drivel that Hockney.....' My wife and I had a wander around his gallery at Salts Mill, some of the stuff, a child could have done in reception class. (The above picture isn't one of them..not my cup of tea but I'd not include that in my definition of 'crap art')
So given that he can paint what you consider "good", why do you suppose he chooses to paint things that you consider "crap", or "drivel"?
I really like Hockney, and I really like a lot of what you'd consider bollocks, inc Rothko, and Pollock. Rather than getting excited about what you don't like, appreciate what you do.
Which is?
So given that he can paint what you consider "good", why do you suppose he chooses to paint things that you consider "crap", or "drivel"?
I've no idea, never thought about it and couldn't really care less. Hockney was an example...plenty of other pieces of 'art' aren't to my taste either. the artists can and do paint stuff I like/appreciate. A bit like bands and music for me I suppose. Just because I like Band A doesn't mean I like everything that they do.
This is a can of shit. It's not art (although the sculpture I squeezed out this morning was pretty amazing and it's a pity more people didn't get to see its splendors.)
In the UK, football is a national obsession.
To an extent, however there are very, very few people in my larger circle of friends who actually give a damn.
I was never a Pink Floyd fan. I'm still not. But I got tickets to see them one time and went because I could and figured I might regret it if I didn't. It was an astonishing experience, one of the best gigs of my life and I've been to a lot. The music may not be to someone's taste but, objectively, "shit" they are not.
Conversely, I saw Pink Floyd at the Bristol Hippodrome, on the ‘Wish You Were Here’ tour, where they played three songs that would ultimately turn up on ‘Animals’.
It was ok. It could easily be argued that dressed up shop mannequins with a light show and sound system might have been equally as effective. There was zero interaction with the audience, Nick was the only one who showed any animation, and that’s ‘cos he’s the drummer!
Honestly, I’ve seen Nick’s band ‘Saucerful of Secrets’ twice, and they’re a far better live experience. I recommend them to anyone who likes the pre-DSOTM material, and Nick actually chats to the audience as well. Nice bloke, met him a couple of times at his garden open days.
Zoos. Just don't get them. Large animals going slowly nuts in enclosures the size of tennis courts, or birds in tiny cages.
That’s becoming very much a minority of cases; most collections of larger animals are now in park-like surroundings giving the animals large areas to move around - I think Longleat was the first such example, which has become the template that others are using.
Bristol has now got a big open park the other side of the M5 from Cribbs Causeway, just off the B4055 towards Easter Compton. I went there with Jo in June 2020, they didn’t have all the animals moved there at that point, but it was obviously going to be much better for the inhabitants than the original location in Clifton.
In the UK, football is a national obsession.
To an extent, however there are very, very few people in my larger circle of friends who actually give a damn.
Yeah, like reform voters, just because 'kicky ball' fans are stupid, loud and annoying, doesn't make them a majority.
One comment to this above was 'understanding leads to appreciation' and it sounds like that's what you're trying to do. Perhaps for some it's more about the introduction or first experience that leads to interest, and that creates the appreciation?
There’s some truth to this, especially in art and sculpture, but I’m most cases where I look at something, especially sculpture, I can usually understand what the artist is saying, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to like it; for example, Henry Moore’s work, while I appreciate the skill that’s gone into the works, they don’t elicit any emotion, on the other hand I absolutely love Anthony Gormley’s work, in particular because he literally puts so much of himself into many pieces, using his own body to create the original mould that the final piece is cast from.
I do like some abstract art, as well as more realistic pieces, but there’s no common ground between what I like and that that I’m indifferent to. The Royal Academy Summer Exhibition is something I’ve been to on quite a few occasions over the years, and it’s brilliant for finding things I like and things I don’t.
Just don't get me started on "Studio Furniture"(even though thats kind of what I make.. ahem)
No mate it is just two planks of rotten and scabby wood. Nailing them together does not mean it is a table worth $30.000
Used to know a bloke did watercolours. Amazing detail and skill.which i think art wise is very difficult to achieve. which were being dont for commercial earn a crust so to speak.
His own personal stuff were abstract, and it probably took me a year(inc explanations from the artist) before i really got the gist of the subject matter.
So its probably the same for any abstract work, in that you might not initially 'get it' but it is clear there is more to this understanding of how an artist thinks then tries to convey those thoughts that show the depth of the subject.
If that makes sense to anyone 😆
In the UK, football is a national obsession.
To an extent, however there are very, very few people in my larger circle of friends who actually give a damn.
For a lot of men it's just an easy way of making conversation, like talking about the weather. The rules and tactics are so simple that a monkey can understand them, it crosses social groups, and of course, celebrity culture means that most people can name plenty of footballers and join in fairly vacuous conversations. (I can't - I have no interest at all.)
As to actually going to matches, I'd say that the people in my office who talk most loudly about football are least likely to attend a match, and no-one actually plays, whereas we've got a few current and ex rugby players and more people who go to watch local rugby. (Or cricket or American football, and we have plenty of cyclists.) But, football chat dominates the office sports talk.
It is many factors in life for me. I hate the trend for the latest thing being the best and accepted way. To my mind something has to be proved to be the way to follow for many years before being mainstream . I cannot abide the fact that we are expected to follow current fashions for being all caring and being persecuted for not fitting in with current trends. If you are a caring soul you will accept every ones point of view. Hypocrisy come to mind . Lets be "green" and ride our bikes. h yeah, and drive to do so or buy a new bike every few years. To suggest such a thing seems to be heresy. Just why in an increase in cyclists a good thing? Not in my experience. As for so called culture. Most much is crap. Indeed why have it? Film? Or any telly. Why sit inside ? Why buy if you can mend. Can't mend. Learn. Phones. Why carry it everywhere? You don't need to have every update. Your kids are where you want them to be. You decided to buy milk before you left home. Wait until next month before talking to a mate in Scotland. . Modern life is crap.
being persecuted for not fitting in with current trends
Who's doing the persecuting? How bad is this persecution?
Some people seem to being getting their knickers in a twist about something they've invented in their head. Nobody cares what you like or don't like.