Idle thought on a wet, grey Sunday. Partly prompted by the movie thread.
I often feel this and wondered if it's just me? Not "shame" exactly, but a feeling of being a bit of an outsider, a bit out of sync with everyone else in matters of culture.
With more generic, popular stuff, I get it. Tastes differ wildly and there's something for everyone, but I'm talking specifically about music, film, theatre etc. which is almost universally recognised as "great". Stuff I feel I "should" like, because (it seems to me) almost everyone else does, especially the experts/critics.
A few examples: The Beatles; Shakespeare; Bowie. There are many more. More widely: Opera; Ballet; Musical theatre. I am not for one minute denying that they are everything the fans and critics say they are. I just wonder what wiring fault in my brain stops me seeing what everyone else can clearly see?
With most of these things I have tried repeatedly to like them. To read the history, back story, listen or watch repeatedly to see if I eventually get it, but no. Nada, they just leave me cold.
The answer may be no more complex than I'm just a complete philistine, which is fine. Just wondering if I'm the only one!
IMO some of these things are emperors new clothes. Opera and ballet specifically
I have seen about 3 films in 30 years. I just do not get the medium at all. I read very quickly so a book I get the information much quicker so even modern films that move quickly are too slow and I have a vivid pictorial imagination so reading gets me better images.
As a result I am outside a huge chunk of popular culture
You arent the only one, for sure. Plenty of critically acclaimed stuff that just doesn't do it for me. Any music thread and you'll see examples from others. You aren't missing anything, you just don't like it.
I also get the other bit...New bands that i think are fantastic and my wife wont even let me have it on in the car because it's just noise. I can't see why she can't see it.
Revel in your otherness! We're all individuals!
What does annoy me is when people get snarky because others have different tastes..."I've never watched Traitors but I know it's shit and you're all idiots for watching it" and of course, football vs rugby.
Just like whatever you like.
I always read the Guardian reviews at the weekend and the utter dross I've sat though (invariably at the Cornerhouse/Home) that they hailed as groundbreaking/ the work of genius.... hours of my life I'll never get back. Nowadays if they say its lowest common denominator trash, Im interested, if they give it 5 stars I'm not going anywhere near it.
As a graphic designer, I am however required by law to listen to 6 Music and compile playlists of Bolivian Speed Garage and South American Industrial Pan Pipe Techo, or we get struck off. Sometimes it becomes a chore... 😉
To summarise....
and of course, football vs rugby
Not really an argument. One is the national sport, the other is just a thing that keeps people called Olly out of everyone elses way for a few hours at the weekend. Both benefit society in different ways
and of course, football vs rugby.
That ones obvious. Rugby is a far superior game to soccer. soccer is just playacting and cheating
I am however required by law to listen to 6 Music and compile playlists of Bolivian Speed Garage and South American Industrial Pan Pipe Techo, or we get struck off. Sometimes it becomes a chore... 😉
🤣
Caring what experts/critics have to say is where you went wrong
Rugby is a far superior game to soccer. soccer is just playacting and cheating
You need to watch the company you keep. The only other people who call it 'soccer' are Trump supporters in America.
Nope - its called soccer to distinguish it from other codes of football. My grandad who played at a high level called it soccer. Its the correct name
Beer and football. Never been interested in either. Makes you really feel like an outsider living in the UK. Often wonder if other people don't like them but play along just to fit in
My grandad who played at a high level called it soccer.
I bet he was a Brown Shirt, wasn't he?
Only fascists call it soccer
Just sayin.... 😛
I’m the same about loads of stuff… I just don’t get or like it. Starwars, computer games, rugby, football, Opera (sometimes fine until they start singing), Strictly come whatever and similar stuff, Soaps on telly, sports cars, most stuff that is defined as luxury, musicals in general, horror films, police dramas… the list could go on. It won’t be exactly the same list as yours but the principle is the same.
Very often I appreciate that the stuff I don’t like has merit, involves loads of talent or artistry, but it just isn’t for me. Sometimes I like just a few songs from one artist but not the whole of the rest of their catalogue.
I think that feeling like this does make you feel like an outsider…. It doesn’t help when making small talk and you have to get good at masking it at times, but I also think that it’s pretty common. The important thing for me is not to give the impression that I view other people’s taste with distain when expressing my lack of enthusiasm for something they really enjoy.
Yeah, I can't stand Tom Hanks and Billy Joel. They sound like nice enough guys and they aren't terrible, just mediocre. Why should I bother with mediocrity when I can choose excellence like Nicolas Cage and Bruce Springsteen?
I also can't stand Bruce Willis, but that's because he's just a terrible actor.
I’m the same about loads of stuff… I just don’t get or like it. Starwars, computer games, rugby, football, Opera (sometimes fine until they start singing), Strictly come whatever and similar stuff, Soaps on telly, sports cars, most stuff that is defined as luxury, musicals in general, horror films, police dramas… the list could go on. It won’t be exactly the same list as yours but the principle is the same.
Very often I appreciate that the stuff I don’t like has merit, involves loads of talent or artistry, but it just isn’t for me. Sometimes I like just a few songs from one artist but not the whole of the rest of their catalogue.
I think that feeling like this does make you feel like an outsider…. It doesn’t help when making small talk and you have to get good at masking it at times, but I also think that it’s pretty common. The important thing for me is not to give the impression that I view other people’s taste with distain when expressing my lack of enthusiasm for something they really enjoy.
That could have been my opening post. You said it better than I did.
It's also possible to appreciate the art/skill in something without necessarily "liking" it. As an example, opera works like that for me. I can hear it, appreciate the talent of the singers and still not want to listen to it. On the other hand I can enjoy some music that others might think is a bit cheesy or awful.
That could have been my opening post. You said it better than I did.
Yes I think gowerboy nailed it. STW is my go-to source of wisdom for all manner of subjects. But I can guarantee that the movie/tv threads are full of recommendations for shows/series that I'd like less than Melania. Well, maybe an exaggeration but you get my drift. And as for the music threads - as my daughter says, "dad, you're not the demographic". Like what you like, but saying that something like ballet is actually empty, and you're the one that spots the truth is somewhere between arrogant and idiotic.
Everyone is different. I've never been interested in association football, not bothered about films generally although there are one of two that I've liked, really dislike musicals (and opera which is just an old musical), and I don't subscribe to any streaming services. This doesn't make me feel either left out, or superior, just people have different tastes, and I won't judge anyone for that - unless they like Mrs Brown's Boys, obvs.
saying that something like ballet is actually empty, and you're the one that spots the truth is somewhere between arrogant and idiotic.
Agreed, but I don't think anyone here is saying that. In my case with ballet, I can absolutely see the technical skill, choreography, athleticism etc. and admire them without "enjoying" it.
Edit to say: @scotroutes nailed this 3 posts above:
It's also possible to appreciate the art/skill in something without necessarily "liking" it. As an example, opera works like that for me. I can hear it, appreciate the talent of the singers and still not want to listen to it.
It took me till my 40's to appreciate how good the Beatles were. Only when I started learning the guitar did it really click that they were so talented. In my 30s I went to several world class Opera performances as part of my job and didn't really get it - now I pay good money to see them.
Some things just take time and experience to understand and with that understanding comes appreciation which may lead to enjoyment but not always. You have to have an interest in the art to start with though, I'm not a dance fan so its not really a surprise that I don't enjoy ballet despite appreciating how incredibly hard it is to perform.
The thing that pisses me off about live arts is its way too expensive - gigs, theatre, Opera, Ballet, festivals....prices are crazy.
The thing that pisses me off about live arts is its way too expensive - gigs, theatre, Opera, Ballet, festivals....prices are crazy.
No kidding. And then if you have to travel to see something, and maybe stay overnight ... it becomes a rich man's pastime.
I think that feeling like this does make you feel like an outsider…. It doesn’t help when making small talk and you have to get good at masking it at times, but I also think that it’s pretty common. The important thing for me is not to give the impression that I view other people’s taste with distain when expressing my lack of enthusiasm for something they really enjoy.
I used to work abroad a bit and have no interest in watching football or other ball sports.
When going somewhere like Portugal, there was a fine line between acting like that episode of the IT Crowd, or be seen as a football hating outsider.
Being non-conformist / individualist ftw.
Never really got the Beatles. It's music. It's higher up the scale than "don't like" (apart from a few hits), so mostly "meh". But at least it had real voices, real instruments, and no autotune, so better than most of the rest of anything that came since.
Footy/Soccer/Wendyball is mostly in the "loathe" area on my scale. No problem if people really do like it, but please don't assume or expect that I have paid any attention unless perhaps England get in the final. And I'd only way I'd know that will be because the likers will have made sure I know. Saying that, I might pay attention to the opening ceremonies this time to see which anthem gets the biggest boos and hisses 😉
Movies... easy to tell when it will be a snooze fest. If it gets overhyped, it will be naff.
No shame whatsoever. In fact I take pride in having little interest in the stuff of the majority. I choose my likes and interests, not anyone else or society as a whole (who were possibly brainwashed into liking it by marketing anyway 😉 )
^ I see Tjs taken our clothing advice and is looking much sharper!Is his new girlfriend Eva Peron?
Complete agree with the op. Why is opera, which is just entertainment of the day, elevated and subsidised because it culture. Who gets to decide? Most so called culture passes me by. It holds little interest beyond providing a couple of hours entertainment or a simple do I like in when it comes to painting or sculpture, not that I see much beyond what’s on antiques road show.
For me 'art', regardless of what form it takes isn't one thing to all people. A great example, I was in London one weekend years ago, it was a weekend booked with this girl I was seeing but we split, so my mate got the spare train ticket and the hotel was fine swapping the room from a double to a twin.
I was his first time in london and he's a bit of a geek so we did science museum and stuff like that, and i have a bit of an 'arty' background' ...at one point we were near the Tate gallery, so I said lets have a look around!
Now, the only thing he knew about modern art was seeing turner prize stuff in the papers and he didn't have a very high opinion... I had a very hard time convincing him until I came up with a brilliant line.. I basically said "I'll walk around there and think 99% of it is crap, but there will be one or two things I really like, pretty much guaranteed, I bet you if we walk around the whole place, you won't be able to, hand on heart, say it was a waste of time".
Anyway, long story short, he walked in scoffing, and walked out talking like a poncy art critic. Talking about this peice and that, sure there was stuff in there that was just silly and dull but after probably an afternoon of talking about the handfull of things that caught our attention, and one in particular he liked, I slighty sarcasticaly said 'so you did find somehting that moved you?" wink wink.
He had to begrudgingly admit that it was worth walking around, afterall!
I guess my point is, you don't have to like everything that other people like, I'd far sooner go to see a musical than an opera because it's probably more relevent to my interests, and i can identify with it more easlily, but really, is there so much difference?
Responding to the OP, rathe than some of the other points; I think very few people see anything wrong with liking or disliking whatever you want. But skill, or genius, or talent is something different, and can definitely exist without me liking it. So things can be appreciated, without liking them.
So the Beatles for example, or Jimi Hendrix were utterly ground breaking, and phenomenally skilled. It doesn’t matter if I like or personally appreciate those artists. And I don’t think anyone will judge me for disliking then. But for me to say that those artists were not hugely talents and genre-changing would not be correct.
Another example; I would hate to be forced to sit through a ballet. I’d rather poke my eyes out. But ballet dancers are incredibly talented, incredibly physically skilled, and unbelievably committed to their art. So me disliking it is something totally different than saying it is without merit.
I have long since decided what I like to watch, read and listen to, and quite emphatically couldn't give a damn whether that is what I'm supposed to like or not. There's a good point made in the OP though that some feel it necessary to signal just how edgy or hip they are by vehemently dissing those who like stuff they think it's uncool to like.
I don't get ballet, I can't really enjoy opera, and I have been guilty of describing musical theatre as "pap for the masses", but how many of those audiences want to hear me or my colleagues singing renaissance or early english polyphony, or a bit of Rachmaninov?
It's like anything else, sanity prevails when you do what YOU like, and spend your money in a way that suits you. I'll listen to recommendations, but make my own mind up rather than pander to what is supposed to be "on point".
Oh, and I cannot stand The Beatles.
Do people really waste time and brainspace thinking and worrying about this stuff? Have you genuinely got nothing better to be doing or thinking about? What a tragic luxury…
Well I've gathered my berries, tended my crops and milked my cow.... so yeah I've got a bit of free time to think about culture - what do you spend your free time thinking about?
The thing that pisses me off about live arts is its way too expensive - gigs, theatre, Opera, Ballet, festivals....prices are crazy.
No kidding. And then if you have to travel to see something, and maybe stay overnight ... it becomes a rich man's pastime.
i don’t do either opera or ballet, or indeed football.
but is it really more money to go to the theatre than to an in-demand football game? Some crucial euro or World Cup game? Which might involve travel, or an overnight stay?
Nope, I’m with you and have mentioned on here. The Beatles were poor, they go lucky with the start of new genre of music and had good promotion of ordinary people and a bit of a boy band rhetoric to them.
Soccer is not its proper name. It's just an abbreviation of ASSOCiation football. Rugby is properly called Rugby Football and is just a different code of the same game, invented when some boys at Rugby school lacked sufficient talent to propel the ball properly and found the only way to move it up the field was by legalising cheating, a philosophy that remains at the heart of rugby to this day. Which is why so much emphasis is put on respect for the referee in rugby, because no-one actually knows the laws and so sucking up to the control freak with the whistle and hoping they 'interpret' them in your favour is basically the point of the game.
And if it was really called Soccer, why do FIFA, UEFA, or the FA, etc., not refer to it in their naming?
Oh, and universally, Pink Floyd are just shit 😉
I always find it mildly irritating when I listen to Desert Island Discs that the guest gets no choice in having the bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. It’s very presumptive that anyone would want either - I wouldn’t.
Do people really waste time and brainspace thinking and worrying about this stuff? Have you genuinely got nothing better to be doing or thinking about? What a tragic luxury…
Do people really waste "time and brainspace" opening a thread whose title is of no interest to them, reading the posts and then typing out a reply? Have YOU genuinely got nothing better to be doing or thinking about?
It's a wet and dreary Sunday, I'm stuck in the house and a bit bored so I posted a thread about an idle musing. Not meant to be particularly deep or serious and easily ignored if you've no interest. Trust me, I do have plenty of more serious stuff going on in my life I could be "worrying about", but I choose to post mince and triv on here for a little light relief of a weekend.
If that's OK with you. Or even to be frank, if it isn't.
How are you using your time today that makes you more worthy than the other posters on this thread?
Wine for me will quench a thirst but where are all the supposed flavours some pretentious folk describe and then I love coffee but it's coffee flavour to me and maybe caramel or chocolate notes if you kill it with sugar or sprinkle it with cocoa
Oh, and universally, Pink Floyd are just shit
Pink Floyd were three different bands: Syd Barrett Pink Floyd, post-Syd Barrett Pink Floyd, and Roger Waters is a Dick Pink Floyd. Which one do you hate?
Rugby is a far superior game to soccer. soccer is just playacting and cheating
You need to watch the company you keep. The only other people who call it 'soccer' are Trump supporters in America.
Nope - its called soccer to distinguish it from other codes of football. My grandad who played at a high level called it soccer. Its the correct name
Both form of football. One is association and the other is union. Clue is in the name.
Soccer is not its proper name. It's just an abbreviation of ASSOCiation football. Rugby is properly called Rugby Football and is just a different code of the same game, invented when some boys at Rugby school lacked sufficient talent to propel the ball properly and found the only way to move it up the field was by legalising cheating, a philosophy that remains at the heart of rugby to this day. Which is why so much emphasis is put on respect for the referee in rugby, because no-one actually knows the laws and so sucking up to the control freak with the whistle and hoping they 'interpret' them in your favour is basically the point of the game.
And if it was really called Soccer, why do FIFA, UEFA, or the FA, etc., not refer to it in their naming?
Ooooh - cheating you say? In rugby its all about pushing the envelope, in soccer its all about diving and flopping and pretending you have been shot
What do you think the "A" in those acronyms is 🙂 Association shortened to soccer which is its name 🙂
Both form of football. One is association and the other is union. Clue is in the name.
Association football and rugby football not union football. also gaelic football, Aussie rules football even american handegg - I mean football
I've long thought there's nothing more boring tha two blokes arguing about football but I realise I was wrong. Two blokes arguing about the proper name for football is even more boring.
Why is opera, which is just entertainment of the day, elevated and subsidised because it culture.
I dont like opera, but there are massive subsidies for "low" culture too in this country - tax credits for superhero films and the entire BBC, for example.
Interesting post and thoughts.
Certainly don't see why anyone should feel bad for not liking things that are universally praised in the way you describe. Our tastes come from so many influences, and for most things we like there's something else that could fill that space, we just like what we know and got familiar with.
Plus, what people say they like sometimes comes from 'people like us do things like this', cultural direction and influence. In private I expect a lot of people listen to music that's from a fairly small area that they've always liked or watch the same kind of films, or aren't as bothered about football as they might say.
The Beatles; Shakespeare; Bowie
Undoubtedly talented but whether you like what they do is another thing. Michael Jackson was talented, so are Oasis, Benjamin Zephaniah, Notorious B.I.G. and Raye, they're all relatively well known. Good luck to anyone arguing that Shakespeare is worth more than any of them. Needs more than having history on your side and maybe he was just ahead of the genre and a big fish in a small pond. (I'm not much of a poetry fan so maybe there is a good reason - never heard one though. Maybe I'm just a Philistine too, my English teacher once said I was).
Opera; Ballet; Musical theatre
Just long established and seen as having high social leverage. No more mainstream or deserving of popularity than a drum n bass night I'd say?
I don't think our tastes (and identity from many other things eg being a cyclist or MTBer, etc) should stay fixed. What we like now probably includes a few things we didn't appreciate in the past - food, music, places etc. I didn't like the books my English teacher said I should like then, I love books like them now.
And what about the performance or art styles you may like that many might not appreciate? Chinese ink paintings, 80s New York graffiti, underground grime artists, Spanish flamenco*, performance martial arts from the Shaolin temple .. creativity is wide and fascinating.
*the most jaw-dropping performance I've seen in recent years was a flamenco show in Madrid (turns out they were a highly regarded outfit, new to it or not the ability and talent seemed obvious). I was mesmerised tbh, and the sound was stunning. My wife wanted to see it and I'm often suprised by how much I like the things she suggests that at first I doubt I'll be into. So maybe I'd like a classic opera or ballet, who knows. Maybe it's about how you're introduced to it or discover it. Maybe it's about going in with no expectations or preconceptions.
Try (almost) anything once, right?
