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Do people really waste time and brainspace thinking and worrying about this stuff? Have you genuinely got nothing better to be doing or thinking about? What a tragic luxury…
What is this life if, full of care?
We have no time to ponder our views of the arts
I don't think that there's any shame in not liking something no matter how popular. Taste is subjective not objective.
However in my life, there have been a few things that I've not "got" and then later on massively changed my mind about. I went to the Leonardo exhibition that was on at the time of the London Olympics. It was excellent and explained exactly why Leonardo Da Vinci was important to art (TL:DR before him, art was figurative, he was the first to aspire to realism) and it changed my understanding and appreciation on the spot.
Similarly, I never used to understand Shakespeare, until I did some acting classes. Realising that he wrote stuff that is still relevant today ~ 500 years ago is pretty mind-blowing IMO. King Lear anyone?
One theory that I've got, is the more influential an artist is, the more mundane they can seem in retrospect. I quite like fantasy writing, but have never managed to finish Lord of the Rings because I find it too cliched. Of course the reason that it is so cliched is that almost everyone copied Tolkien after he'd written it...
The Beatles changed everything. They were the first boy band. In retrospect they don't look so special because they changed everything that came after them.
Oh, and universally, Pink Floyd are just shit 😉
Funnily enough, this is one of the things that I changed my mind on. I never used to get the fuss about Pink Floyd, until I went to see Roger Waters tour "The Wall". It was one of the most mind blowing experiences I've ever had. I now think that they're brilliant. Waters is a dick though.
The trouble with dismissing art is that you miss so much. Example off the top of my head: There's a scene in Ferris Bueller when the trio go to the Chicago Museum of Art - a beautiful museum, if you get the chance you should definitely go, and Cameron is mesmerised by a Surat pointillist painting "Sunday Afternoon on the Grand Jatte, the central figures are a mother and child just walking along holding hands, something that Cameron - who we know has a difficult relationship with his own parents has probably never experienced. Playing over the top of this as we watch him have an existential crisis is an instrumental version of 'Please, please let me get want I want'
Speaking of the Chicago Museum of Art (The Frick collection specifically in this case), there's a poem by Frank O'Hara, who was otherwise a bit of drunk and a terrible of letch of much much younger men that he had any right swooning over, who spoke about the fact that above all the art and noise that goes with it, there's also just the simple things in life;
Having a Coke With You.
or being sick to my stomach on the Travesera de Gracia in Barcelona
partly because in your orange shirt you look like a better happier St. Sebastian
partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yoghurt
partly because of the fluorescent orange tulips around the birches
partly because of the secrecy our smiles take on before people and statuary
it is hard to believe when I’m with you that there can be anything as still
as solemn as unpleasantly definitive as statuary when right in front of it
in the warm New York 4 o’clock light we are drifting back and forth
between each other like a tree breathing through its spectacles
and the portrait show seems to have no faces in it at all, just paint
you suddenly wonder why in the world anyone ever did them
I look
at you and I would rather look at you than all the portraits in the world
except possibly for the Polish Rider occasionally and anyway it’s in the Frick
which thank heavens you haven’t gone to yet so we can go together the first time
and the fact that you move so beautifully more or less takes care of Futurism
just as at home I never think of the Nude Descending a Staircase or
at a rehearsal a single drawing of Leonardo or Michelangelo that used to wow me
and what good does all the research of the Impressionists do them
when they never got the right person to stand near the tree when the sun sank
or for that matter Marino Marini when he didn’t pick the rider as carefully
as the horse
it seems they were all cheated of some marvellous experience
which is not going to go wasted on me which is why I’m telling you about it
saying that something like ballet is actually empty, and you're the one that spots the truth is somewhere between arrogant and idiotic.
Agreed, but I don't think anyone here is saying that.
I suspect it was referencing this:
IMO some of these things are emperors new clothes. Opera and ballet specifically
Which is nonsense. Ballet doesn't do a lot for me but opera can be a wonderful experience. However most of the music I listen to (and play) is classical so that might explain my view. I do still appreciate the occasional "popular beat combo" of the day but if I'm in a rock frame of mind I tend to head back to the 60s/70s when I was growing up. So The Beatles and Pink Floyd (before Dark Side) were and remain brilliant. IMO of course. Which is the whole point. My opinion shouldn't necessarily have any merit to someone who isn't interested in the same stuff and so the OP shouldn't beat himself up over not appreciating "universally acclaimed culture". That's a rather silly phrase given that no culture is universally acclaimed anyway, as demonstrated by this thread.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Plenty of people on this thread base their whole personalities on not liking popular things.
It always makes my brain twitch when people ask what music I like... I mean, most of it, if it's decent, so it's a stupid question, really.
IMO some of these things are emperors new clothes. Opera and ballet specifically
I suspect what TJ actually meant (rather than what he wrote) is that there are many people who pretend to like or pretend to understand Opera and Ballet because its the 'thing to do' not that Opera and Ballet are worthless. I agree with him there - but then its been like that since the first Opera was performed. Also, I suspect more than a few people have gone to a performance or an art gallery because its the 'thing to do' or the 'place to be seem' and found they really enjoyed it. Its all nonsense anyway - what's cooler Opera or a Biffy Clyro gig or Wicked? Obviously none of them if you hate the experience! But anything where humans are applying themselves to entertain others has got to be worth a try surely?
I think your age pays a big part, I prefer similar music to that from my youth and find modern pop mostly meh, although appreciate some.
Ballet and opera do nothing for me, although I do like Andy Warhols Art not into much other.
I’ve been listening to a lot of Spanish Indie music , as you do , some is really good and it’s nice to actually know some of the music you hear at Fiestas although it’s not uncommon to hear English music.
It’s interesting when you start delving into other countries culture , it’s not all flamenco although I’m not into bad bunny and a lot of the Spanish chart ,I prefer home grown Spain’ish bands.
I always find it mildly irritating when I listen to Desert Island Discs that the guest gets no choice in having the bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. It’s very presumptive that anyone would want either - I wouldn’t.
they do get a choice.
many times folk have had a different religious or spiritual book, even if it’s not their religion but one they want to study or find interesting. And there’s plenty of precedent for folk requesting different collected works.
The Beatles changed everything. They were the first boy band. In retrospect they don't look so special because they changed everything that came after them.
This really resonates with me - they made something new.
I remember when OK Computer was released. It sounded like it came from another planet. It was *amazing*.
A re-listen last year (prompted by a thread on here as it goes) reminded me how great it is, but it no longer sounds out of the ordinary.
It sounds more like pop music, but that’s because pop music sounds like Radiohead!!
The trouble with dismissing art is that you miss so much.
I absolutely don't do that. Quite the opposite, if it's critically acclaimed or universally liked but not immediately pleasing to me, I try hard to see what others see in it. Because I worry I may be missing out. I want to see if, with a deeper understanding, or knowledge of the back story I can grow to appreciate something that doesn't grab me straight away. This was kind of the point (perhaps badly explained) of the thread.
I suspect what TJ actually meant (rather than what he wrote) is that there are many people who pretend to like or pretend to understand Opera and Ballet because its the 'thing to do' not that Opera and Ballet are worthless. I agree with him there - but then its been like that since the first Opera was performed.
Correct
Correct
Ah well in that case it's probably no different to any other art or activity that some people think they ought to be seen at or doing. Like golf.
The Beatles are an interesting one... not on my playlist but I do appreciate them a lot more with age - saccarin 'throw away' pop on the surface, but there's a lot going on in a lot of their music, especially for the time - it's like looking at one of those paintings where the more you look, the more you see.
I think there's a lot of not so obvious complexity, made simple sounding on the surface.
The trouble with dismissing art is that you miss so much.
I absolutely don't do that. Quite the opposite, if it's critically acclaimed or universally liked but not immediately pleasing to me, I try hard to see what others see in it. Because I worry I may be missing out. I want to see if, with a deeper understanding, or knowledge of the back story I can grow to appreciate something that doesn't grab me straight away. This was kind of the point (perhaps badly explained) of the thread.
This is the point. I don’t think I (or the OP) am saying one art form/artist, etc is of more or less value or that anyone was wrong to like what they like. I admire some people I know that seem to get and like the whole spectrum of stuff that I don’t get. Life would be easier if I was like them.
It’s not that I don’t appreciate any art/music/tv… it’s just that a lot (not all) of stuff that seems almost universally popular or enjoyed by most of the community, is lost on or seems inaccessible to me. I also feel that art and sport of all kind is massively important, especially if it’s accessible to ordinary people. For this reason I support public spending on arts and culture… even though I rarely step inside a gallery and almost never watch any sport.
The trouble with dismissing art is that you miss so much.
I absolutely don't do that. Quite the opposite, if it's critically acclaimed or universally liked but not immediately pleasing to me, I try hard to see what others see in it. Because I worry I may be missing out. I want to see if, with a deeper understanding, or knowledge of the back story I can grow to appreciate something that doesn't grab me straight away. This was kind of the point (perhaps badly explained) of the thread.
IME understanding often leads to appreciation.
There are a lot of people in the UK. You can find a lot of people who like a lot of specialist stuff.
Like mountain biking, In the winter, in the mud.
And here we are on a forum linked vaguely by this.
Who cares what 99% of people think. The 1% is still plenty of interesting people to hang about with.
Art...or rather modern/contemporary art...like some of the drivel that Hockney has painted or the likes of 3 random blocks of colour on a canvas and people fawn over it....weird...IMHO
Art...or rather modern/contemporary art...like some of the drivel that Hockney has painted or the likes of 3 random blocks of colour on a canvas and people fawn over it....weird...IMHO
See, I really rate Hockney, the bold colours and great appreciation of light and shade, really speak to me.
This is 1868, though, can it really be considered modern ot over 60 years old? 🤔
For me its about how something makes you feel . There's certain songs or bands that transport you to a time or place and just give you a lift and you can't choose to make something do that to you .
When I was younger I took music and liking certain bands way to seriously but I wouldn't change that , if you can't be passionate about stuff when your young then when can you . As I got a bit older I realized its just stuff you like or dont like .
I watched school of rock recently with my 7 year old , he now loves AC DC . I dont know if it will last but maybe that love of a band stays with him and that music can lift him when he's down . It doesn't make school of rock or AC DC high art or if you dont like them you're not wrong as such , it just doesn't grab you in that way .
Having said that if you don't like School Of Rock you might be dead inside .
Modern art you say? All art should make you think. Opera? That was mass entertainment for the illiterate population.
oops, hit quote instead of edit.
i meant 1968. not 1868 lol
It baffles me that someone can dismiss an entire medium, especially when they have little to no experience of it. Taking Jezza purely as an example, he says he doesn't like films and has only watched three ever. Well, that's not "I don't like films" then is it, that's "I don't watch films." There's a difference between not being excited about something and actively disliking it.
This weekend I spent a not inconsiderable amount of money to take my partner and her daughter to Strictly Live, in isolation I wouldn't have spent a red cent on it but it was an entertaining afternoon.
I don't like musicals, a narrative suddenly breaking into song for no reason is distracting and weird. But I know Joseph and a bit of Cats from school; there are Queen, Monty Python, Def Leppard, (don't judge me) Abba musicals which I would be interested to watch based on the subject. I watched Avenue Q in London, twice, it's phenomenal.
I don't like soap operas, but Prisoner: Cell Block H was compulsive viewing as a student.
I don't like vacuous "Prime Time" TV for the masses, but The Masked Singer is oddly compelling because I enjoy trying to identify voices when watching animated TV/films.
I don't like spectator sports, but tonight is Superbowl Sunday and I've been looking forward to it for weeks. It's the only sportsball match I'll be watching for another 364 days. There's probably a longer post to be had here.
I don't like reality TV, but the opening night of Big Brother is amusing.
No cougar - its films do not work for me for the reasons I explained. I have tried many times. ONly 3 in the last 30 years I have watched the whole thing. the medium does not work for me
Footy/Soccer/Wendyball is mostly in the "loathe" area on my scale.
Yet you're still interested in an England game?
I "loathe" football but really, I loathe everything that football brings to the table. The game itself might be moderately entertaining for five minutes, but **** me the national obsession drives me spare. And it is just that, it's an obsession, a cult. You can see it in action on this thread: instant tribal behaviour, add balls and retire. You can't get away from it, from TV to radio to 'water cooler' office chat to going to the pub for a quiet pint.
"Sports" news is no such thing, it's football news. One time I attended an ice hockey match between Manchester and Sheffield, then the two best teams in the UK and sworn rivals, they sold out the MEN (now AO) Arena. 16,245 people. Our tickets were in CP105 - CP is "camera platform," they'd run out of regular seats and started sticking camping chairs in the square metre next to the Sky TV cameras. This is unprecedented, headline stadium rock bands don't even do that. Yet in the mainstream media it was a footnote after Accrington Stanley losing to Oswaldtwistle Amateurs or something. Sports news, I want to know what's going on in the archery or the tiddlywinks or, heaven forfend today, the Superbowl. Why hasn't Playoff results been lead stories for the last couple of weeks?
Oh, and universally, Pink Floyd are just shit
This is "TJ doesn't like films" again.
I was never a Pink Floyd fan. I'm still not. But I got tickets to see them one time and went because I could and figured I might regret it if I didn't. It was an astonishing experience, one of the best gigs of my life and I've been to a lot. The music may not be to someone's taste but, objectively, "shit" they are not.
I always find it mildly irritating when I listen to Desert Island Discs that the guest gets no choice in having the bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. It’s very presumptive that anyone would want either - I wouldn’t.
You might need kindling?
Association football and rugby football not union football. also gaelic football, Aussie rules football even american handegg - I mean football
"Handegg" annoys me and you should know better because I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
The "foot" in football does not refer to kicking, it refers to being played on foot as opposed to (say) on horseback. Rugby and other football games in America, Canada, Australia etc etc all use a ball which is a prolate spheroid, Association Football is an outlier in having a spherical ball. And none of them use a ****ing egg.
No cougar - its films do not work for me for the reasons I explained. I have tried many times. ONly 3 in the last 30 years I have watched the whole thing. the medium does not work for me
I feel a bit sorry for you. “Films” encompasses a huge range of works and give a window into stories and worlds that can entertain, move, educate and inspire. If you don’t have the gene or whatever for appreciating at least some part of them it’s a big loss for you.
Why would it be?
Why wouldn't it be?
Is there a single bigger sporting event happening globally right now?
Is there a single bigger sporting event happening globally right now?
No idea but American football is not of much interest or relevance to a British audience.
I don't think fooball is 'cultural', I mean...
It's just a business - the winning team is the team who has the most wealthy owners/backers as they can afford to buy the best players.
No idea but American football is not of much interest or relevance to a British audience.
My Rashgeneralisationometer just exploded. How can you tell me it's not relevant to me when (amongst other reasons) I used to play it?
It might be of more interest if it got more exposure, perhaps?
The fact remains that all egg-based games are shit, with the possible exception of egg and spoon races, which at least appear to have some form of rules that everyone understands.
It might be of more interest if it got more exposure, perhaps?
What more do you want…
My Rashgeneralisationometer just exploded. How can you tell me it's not relevant to me when (amongst other reasons) I used to play it?
... though I care so much that I thought it was tonight up until about 20 minutes ago.
It's just a business - the winning team is the team who has the most wealthy owners/backers as they can afford to buy the best players
As a Manchester United supporter I’d advise you take a look at the squillions of pounds we’ve spent over the last 10 years and then have a look at where that actually got us
The fact remains that all egg-based games are shit, with the possible exception of egg and spoon races, which at least appear to have some form of rules that everyone understands.
You not understanding a given game is a "you" failing. I can explain it to you if you like?
It's just a business - the winning team is the team who has the most wealthy owners/backers as they can afford to buy the best players
As a Manchester United supporter I’d advise you take a look at the squillions of pounds we’ve spent over the last 10 years and then have a look at where that actually got us
I guess they sold a load of merch and stuff, so technically successful? 😉
How many duvet covers, coffee mugs, branded watches and other such tat do they need to turn over in order to be a successful football team marketing machine?
One time I attended an ice hockey match between Manchester and Sheffield, then the two best teams in the UK and sworn rivals, they sold out the MEN (now AO) Arena. 16,245 people.
16,220 is the capacity of the home ground of...Blackpool FC. Ice hockey is a totally marginal sport in the UK. Of course it doesn't get get front page (or even back page) headlines.
16,000 is about 15% of how many people go to my council's summer fair weekend. I wouldn't expect that to be mentioned in national media much either.
16,220 is the capacity of the home ground of...Blackpool FC.
Do they often sell out?
It's all relative. I was at the same arena this weekend for Strictly Live, the participants were all commenting on how huge it was compared to the home of the TV finale venue, Blackpool ballroom.
Ice hockey is a totally marginal sport in the UK. Of course it doesn't get get front page (or even back page) headlines.
Of course it's marginal. But not even once, for the biggest match in UK history? Not a sentence in the "... and finally" section?
This is exactly what I'm driving at. Other sports don't get a look-in between the football and the other football.
This isn't "sports news," it's practically religious propaganda.
My Rashgeneralisationometer just exploded. How can you tell me it's not relevant tomewhen (amongst other reasons) I used to play it?
It might be of more interest if it got more exposure, perhaps?
But it won't change your enjoyment of it would it ? I enjoy watching world cup DH and whilst there's an economic reason to make the sport more widely watched from my perspective if it didn't grow at all I'd still love watching it . Granted NFL and WCDH are miles apart in terms of exposure.
One of the things I tell my kids is im not interested in what they dont like , I want to know what gets them excited and focus on that . But alongside that I think if you just write off a certain thing like movies or sport you're potentially missing out on some great experiences.
I am however required by law to listen to 6 Music and
I love music, i play instruments i have been a sound engineer.
But i detest radio 6.
I think your age pays a big part, I prefer similar music to that from my youth and find modern pop mostly meh, although appreciate some.
this need not be so tho it is for many. I constantly seek out new and new to me music. Music is a huge thing in my life tho I cannot play an instrument. New artists and genres are a delight
No cougar - its films do not work for me for the reasons I explained. I have tried many times. ONly 3 in the last 30 years I have watched the whole thing. the medium does not work for me
I feel a bit sorry for you. “Films” encompasses a huge range of works and give a window into stories and worlds that can entertain, move, educate and inspire. If you don’t have the gene or whatever for appreciating at least some part of them it’s a big loss for you.
its more that books are far more entertaining to me. the speed at which i can gather the information and the images created are far better to me. films are just dull in comparison as i am constrained by the vision of the filmmaker
funnily enough live theatre is ok to me
long live neurodivergance
But it won't change your enjoyment of it would it ?
No, but it would lessen my annoyance at "Here is the sports news. Footballfootballfootballfootballfootballfootballfootballfootballdeepbreathfootballfootballfootball and now Anthea with the weather."
Wouldn't you like it if more people were made aware of WC DH and could potentially get turned onto it?
films are just dull in comparison as i am constrained by the vision of the filmmaker
When reading books are you not similarly constrained by the vision of the author?
the speed at which i can gather the information and the images created are far better to me.
On this point I agree. If I need to learn something I'd rather read it rather than watch a video of someone explaining it. I can read faster than someone can talk.