Scottish winter adventure?

You could go up Cairngorm from the Ski carpark*, over Ben MacDui and make your way down to the Hutchison Hut for a night before walking back out. That would probably satiate a good "Winter Explorer" feel. It can be pretty wild up there. Big day out in short daylight hours & you gotta be good at nav but doable, especially starting high up at the carpark.

*If you wanted to make it interesting and you know what you're doing with good axe & crampon technique, you could go up via Fiacaill Ridge - there is an easier variant just to the right of the crest but it's still fairly consequential ground. This also means you have to backtrack a bit if you wanted to tick off the actual Cairngorm Summit.

Assuming "trek" means on foot....

Linn of Dee to Coylumbridge via the Lairig Ghru overnighting at Corrour Bothy could work. Day one could be a mission though in the winter- you'd need to be comfortable doing the first few hours in the dark. And you'd be a high risk taker not to take a tent just in case there is no room. Bit of an admin faff - would need a couple of cars and a long slog back to pickup the car left at the start point. But it's a proper rite of passage. And it takes some weather to fill the Lairg Ghru with snow and its slow going if it is.

Easier would be a loop from Cas Car Park up Ben MacDui then down and camp at Loch Avon before hopping over the top back to the car the next day. Possibly even sleep under the shelter stone if you can handle the rubbish left behind. Far more chance of snow on the plateau. I can't over emphasis the benefit of walking crampons (or those micro spikes) on the plateau which does a pretty epic version of boiler plate ice on the flat.

Usual caveats - winter involves a huge ramp in weather related risk. A cold and snowy bluebird day is a much more pleasant experience but is much easier to achieve if you are a local or completely 100% able to drop everything at a moments notice to come up.

We would probably take a tent out of preference, I don't think I want to share a bothy 🙂

I would be tempted by a grade I/II gulley.  He already has some B2 boots, I am waiting for an occasion to buy some.

Re the weather, yes of course always an issue. I would plan a weekend and then do something else or cancel if the forecast had a prospect of bad weather, I've got no qualms doing that.

Just not familiar with the area.

So are you familiar with the conditions? They can be pretty intense and unpredictable up on even relatively low peaks in the middle of summer. 

You might not want to share bothies but planning them in isn't a terrible idea. You can cook and get warm and still nip out to camp, its pretty common.

I don't think I want to share a bothy

I know the sentiment...but. I had a very uncomfortable night in the gorms a couple of years ago in December. Long gone dark and the choice was pitching in 50mph winds on snow/ice or dropping down below the snowline and pitching behind a boulder...in an inch or two of standing melt water. Both sub optimal. 

I would plan a weekend and then do something else or cancel if the forecast had a prospect of bad weather

Actually, I think it might be going a step further.....planning a 1-2 month window and waiting for good weather. That's clearly logistically much tougher to achieve.

Yeah I'd share a bothy if I thought I'd need it, but I would always take a tent anyway and it would be my first choice unless not viable.  Quite happy to plan to go to the bothy and make a call at the time whether to use it or camp nearby so you're right it's not a bad idea.

So are you familiar with the conditions? They can be pretty intense and unpredictable up on even relatively low peaks in the middle of summer

Well, plenty of Welsh peaks in all sorts of conditions including cold, snow, gales, zero visibility etc and all of the above, I've been to some cold parts of the world, I've been in difficult situations.  The only thing I haven't had to deal with is avalanche risk but I'm aware of the issues.

These are good suggestions, exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of.

I was going to suggest the Linn of Dee to Sugarbowl carpark (slightly shorter variation on Coylumbridge) via the Lairig Ghru using Corrour. If you have a willing accomplice who'll drive you round, getting dropped off at the Braemar end saves a lot of logistical faff. Maybe worth pricing a taxi up, or bus for part of it?

Sharing a bothy that deep in the 'gorms won't be a problem- if the conditions are such that a bothy is required as an alternative to camping, then the only other people there will be equally experienced in winter walking, and thus suitably versed in bothy etiquette too. ("The bothy is never full", etc) Corrour even has an outside netty nowadays.

Granted the through route doesn't involve a hill as such, or any scrambing etc, but the Pools of Dee are 2700ft in themselves, so you're reasonably high.

If you do go for a gully, I was pleasantly surprised by the abundance of gear on Jacob's Ladder last year. My previous experience of easy gullies was that they were usually solos, but this one was stitched like a kipper.

Having said which, I'm not sure it'd be fun with sleeping gear and climbing gear...... Seriously heavy

Yeah not sure about climbing. At most I would look for something like Banana Gully - Grade 1 gully on Y Garn, Snowdonia (fast forward to 1.10) which is Grade I, and you could easily do it with a couple of screws and a skinny rope.  A lot of people do it with just one walking axe.

Another option - Glen Feshie to Larig Gruh over the plateaux. The bothy in the Feshie is big enough that sharing won't be an issue. Or good camping nearby.

Logistic easier than Linn of Dee to Speyside.

Or Glen Einich - Carn Toul - Corrour overnight, back to car via Larig Gruh.

suggest the Linn of Dee to Sugarbowl carpark (slightly shorter variation on Coylumbridge) via the Lairig Ghru using Corrour. If you have a willing accomplice who'll drive you round, getting dropped off at the Braemar end saves a lot of logistical faff. Maybe worth pricing a taxi up, or bus for part of it?

I hope lawman will forgive me for having doubts about this one as a first CG adventure. My ( admittedly fairly limited) experience of the gorms in winter is utterly ferocious weather. The big problem there, unlike the pointy west coast mountains, is navigation and the sheer time it takes to lose height in an emergency. If you do the Ghru then the logistics will be quite significant and may push you towards making bad decisions if the weather is marginal. The advantage of the other options is lower commitment 

I mean, I'm sure it'll be great, but since this is a discussion forum I'm suggesting West may be better, or at least a route with better escape options.

.

These days you would have some idea of the weather risk before you set out though?

Good point re the escape options though as the topography is less of an issue down here.

These days you would have some idea of the weather risk before you set out though?

Yes indeed. Exactly that..... You've paid in advance for a taxi ( can't imagine how much that would be) or arranged with a mate to drop you off on one specific weekend in Braemar..

As it gets closer to the weekend you realise the forecast is looming a bit dicey... But you've paid fir the taxi,/ only got the possibility of a lift that weekend.... whaddays do?

Forgiven! Three of us did it Feb 1990 when the climbing club were staying for a week in Aviemore. The club chairman fancied a day off so he was happy to drive us round to the Linn. Other days in the same week we'd been up on the tops, and it was a decent distraction from hill bagging when the weather forecast was a bit less friendly at 4000ft. So we drew up a 'bad weather' plan. Turned out to be reasonable enough in the Ghru, just a bit breezy.

Is hitch hiking as easy in the UK mountains as it used to be? All of our one-way trips have relied on the generosity of drivers, and in the mountains locally it's rare for many cars to go past before one stops. 

But a touring adventure without skis! Why? 😛 

I tend to agree with the general point about a loop being simpler (and cheaper) logistically, and therefore easier to manage according to a weather window being available. 

I'm not a bothy fan either and always carry my own shelter, but would be prepared for indoor sleeping if the conditions demanded. 

It's worth re-iterating just how long the nights are. Either expect to be walking for many hours in the dark or for a long night in a sleeping bag. 

A loop taking in Glen Eaniach, Carn Toul and back over Macdui and Cairn Lochan would be a fine outing, with a possible escape down the Lairig Ghru if required. I guess it depends just how much has to be at high level and what the snow levels are on the day. 

No comment would be worthwhile without a suitable photo of the area in question...

With all the usual caveats around experience, fitness and conditions, here are a few suggestions.

Tranter's Round or a shorter variation over two days with either a camp in Glen Nevis or a night in Meanach bothy. It's really easy to shorten the full round so you could tailor it to fitness/enthusiasm.

From Coylumbridge up the start of the Lairig Ghru, climb South Gully on Lurchers (easy I) over Macdui to camp near Corrour. Back via Angel's Ridge on Sgor and Lochain Uaine (easy I) and over Braeriach then down to the Lairig Ghru again.

From Cairngorm ski centre into Sneachda, up Aladdin's, down Coire Domhain, up Castlegates Gully then down to the Hutchy Hut. Back via one of the Grade I gullies in Coire Sputan Dearg and over Macdui.

The last two routes could also be done without the grade I routes if required.

Northern Highlands curveball...

From Inverlael over Seana Bhraigh to Magoo's bothy. One of the best bothies in the country and unlikely to be busy. Several options for exactly how to do this. Back via one of the Grade I gullies in Luchd Coire of Seana Bhraigh.

I would be tempted by a grade I/II gulley

I've given you a few suggestions for this but don't underestimate how hard that might feel with overnight kit. Probably best to keep it to the easier end of Grade I, anything harder can feel brutal hard with a big bag and even easy Grade Is can be tough/scary in hard snow conditions.

From Invercauld, up over The Stuic (nice easy scramble) to camp at the Dubh Loch. Back over Lochnagar.

I don't have enough parameters to suggest a route for you personally but I'd say to most people that travelling a long way to the cairngorms and not spending some time in the Loch Avon basin is madness. Lots of decent camping near the shelterstone and a pretty reliable (if long) poor weather escape route through strath nethy.

Faindouran bothy is never going to be full in the winter and there are lots of route options around it. Could be a good poorer weather option.

Posted by: molgrips

↑

We would probably take a tent out of preference, I don't think I want to share a bothy

IMO by doing this you're missing out on one of the key things that give the highlands their character. Either you'll have the bothy to yourself, or you'll meet some interesting folk. If you're worried that it might be overcrowded/too noisy then take your tent as back-up.

My view is that bothy nights can be a major highlight of a trip to the Scottish mountains, turning what would otherwise have been a grey/white trudge into an uplifting experience. Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Posted by: joshvegas

↑

You can cook and get warm

Don't forget to take wood, then (as well as climbing gear, contingency camping gear, spare layers, food)

Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, the word 'most' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. I think a lot of us have met folk in bothies that are both perfectly pleasant and others that in other circumstances you'd actively avoid. I guess it's the ratio of arse to sound in your back catalogue that colours your viewpoint. My experience has been mostly good. I did meet one young man who was clearly living between a handful of bothies and implied he was 'escaping'. He didn't clarify if that was escaping a relationship, the modern world or the law.....and on balance it was something I thought I'd sleep better if I didn't know. Most of the times I've elected to move on it was when larger groups were using it (normally less than the 6 limit) and made it very clear they were going to do as they pleased and your company was not part of their plans.

It's at this time of year that Garry Smith's "Scotland's Winter Mountains with one axe" book comes out with a dram or two in the evenings. Coffee table book come guide and a bit west coast centric for my location (I think there one two routes in the gorms) but good never the less.

My view is that bothy nights can be a major highlight of a trip to the Scottish mountains, turning what would otherwise have been a grey/white trudge into an uplifting experience. Most other bothy users are friends you haven't met (yet).

Clearly you are more extroverted than me!

don't underestimate how hard that might feel with overnight kit. Probably best to keep it to the easier end of Grade I, anything harder can feel brutal hard with a big bag and even easy Grade Is can be tough/scary in hard snow conditions.

I won't,  I have experience to draw on.

I won't, I have experience to draw on. 

Would you be planning on soloing any route? Even a light rope and rack is going to add kilos to an already heavy bag and pitching grade ones is pretty time consuming.

I don't know if I'd pack a rope, I'd plan my route to include one or not, depending on what I decide to do. I'd consider various options starting on what's given here, then I'd do masses of research on what things were like and I'd shortlist a few options. Then I'd try various kit lists and see how it feels with the amount of food we might need, which varies depending on how long we'd be out which would in turn vary depending on the conditions.  If there's room for a rope I might bring one and include a route that I might want one on.  But I'd put several options in the car and make a call when I get there, probably.  I doubt I'd take a rack, if I took a rope it would be alpine style.  Maybe one or two screws just in case it's icy enough to warrant it.

No-one so far has mentioned snow shoes. The idea of heading out into probably snowy terrain without either skis or snow shoes on my feet sounds like misery to me. Wading through snow in boots is exhausting when lightly loaded but with an overnight bag not something I'd do. I agree with the comments about climbing with a heavy pack unless you're used to it and very fit, again misery.  Given the very long nights I think I'd just do day loops. Travel light and fast, leave before dawn and aim to be back into very easy terrain before dark.

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

Yeah I've thought about snow shoes, I'd decide based on the conditions.  These days we can get decent snow reports.

if I took a rope it would be alpine style. Maybe one or two screws just in case it's icy enough to warrant it.

 

 

 

 

I'm struggling to think of any grade 1 gullies where you could place decent ice screws in preference to rock gear, especially in the Cairngorms. Anything with an icy step is by definition not grade 1 (IMLE) 

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

I'm keen to know others' view on this. It sounds of very limited benefit to me. It might be worth it for a second, but surely you are kidding yourself if you think you can hold a leader 'slide' with presumably no belay. Surely this is the definition of leader mustn't fall. Not to mention the insane amount of time it would take to do a climb in 10- 22 pitches!

No-one so far has mentioned snow shoes

They're rarely much use in Scotland. The combination of lack of snow, wind scouring, rocky terrain and the regular temperature fluctuations mean that you don't often get the kind of conditions that make them helpful.

As for the rope, maybe a very short thin one, say 10m. Waist ties and a shoulder belay in case the lead climber feels uncomfortable. Enough to stop a slide but not a fall.

On the type of terrain the op is talking about this would be useless at best and a disaster waiting to happen at worst.

I'm struggling to think of any grade 1 gullies where you could place decent ice screws in preference to rock gear, especially in the Cairngorms. 

I was about to say the same. Far better to take a small rock rack and a few slings.

I'm keen to know others' view on this

See above, I think it's awful advice!

You'd be surprised what you can hold with a shoulder/axe belay, the generalist. Have a play someday. I've held one fall with a shoulder belay just wedged in a stream passage when caving. The idea is you just climb together unless either climber starts to feel uncomfortable. If it's the second the leader digs in and belays on the axe or shoulder depending on how deep/resistant the snow is. If it's the lead who's uncomfortable then really you should be turning around but it can be (perhaps false) confidence giving to have someone giving you a shoulder or axe belay. In places I've used the technique I don't think I've had to dig in and belay more than a few times just for the more awkward or steeper bits. We're talking grade 1 here I believe.

I not alone in this, I've been on the same route as a guide in the Alps with their client moving together with occasional stances in exactly the same way, but with fewer stances.

Edit: you people know the terrain better than me so I suggest Molgrips take your ideas on board not mine. It struck me he was trying to decide whether he needed a rope at all. In those cases a short rope is better than nothing IMO. I've often done routes with my wife which I'd be happy doing without myself. The rope gives her confidence and I'm absolutely certain of being able to hold her however rudimentary the stance/belay.

 I doubt I'd take a rack, if I took a rope it would be alpine style

Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean here but a rope is of psychological value only if you don't also have the means to belay. On a ridge this can be the natural belays afforded by the terrain but in a gully it's more likely to be leader placed rock protection. Whether you pitch it or move together with runners in between is another decision to make based on conditions and ability but roping up and moving together with no running belays between you is a waste of time.

Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

I not alone in this, I've been on the same route as a guide in the Alps with their client moving together with occasional stances in exactly the same way,

Guide best practice in the Alps is not the same a independent climber best practice in Scotland. If indeed they were demonstrating best practice, being a guide is not a guarantee of that.

Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

In my view it depends on the route and the snow conditions.  If you're on a 45 degree slope and you're in a foot of soft snow on a harder base, you're not really going anywhere.  Even if you slip, you're not going to slide. The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps.  If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way.  The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall.  If you have crampons with front points, you're again pretty unlikely to need the rope.

Something like these two guys: Self arrest

They're rarely much use in Scotland. The combination of lack of snow, wind scouring, rocky terrain and the regular temperature fluctuations mean that you don't often get the kind of conditions that make them helpful.

Was going to say the same. Doesn't mean there have not been some stretches I'd have liked a pair. But there's a reason you'd struggle to find a pair for sale in the shops in Aviemore. 

Bigger picture....got to confess in my own time I'm far more drawn to taking some touring skis and finding a route I can skin up & slide down if conditions allow. Not that I don't enjoy a winter walk anymore, but it's now mostly 2nd favourite.....scratch that maybe 4th favourite after a cross country ski and a fat bike too. 

But a touring adventure without skis! Why?

Cos neither of us ski, and the Cairngorm Plateau is probably not the place to start learning!  Actually I can XC ski, but I wouldn't back myself up there.

Posted by: Spin

↑

Was it Patey who defined a solo climber as 'one climber falling alone' and a roped party as '2 climbers falling together'? That's the scenario you put yourself in it you're roped up but not belayed.

True to a point. The fact that climbers do climb roped up and moving together is that in many situations it is better than nothing. A French team has just done one of the remaining unclimbed Himalayan summits over 7000m Alpine style. It was unclimbed because "unclimable" due to it being a nightmare of cornices and steep snow - in all the footage I've seen they're roped up and moving together.

There's a speed versus objective risk factor. By moving together you spend less time exposed to objective risks than if you pitch the whole lot. 

Still, each to his own, do whatever feels safe and right to you. I'll continue to have a short rope in the pack because that avoids having a freaked out wife. 🙂

If you're on a 45 degree slope and you're in a foot of soft snow on a harder base, you're not really going anywhere. Even if you slip, you're not going to slide.

Totally agree.

The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps. If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way. The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall. If you have crampons with front points, you're again pretty unlikely to need the rope.

I'm a bit unclear what you're saying here, but think you may be referring to climbing without crampons in the first bit....?

In which case I think the clear solution is to put crampons on in preference to a rope.

The risk is if the snow field is hard ice and you are kicking steps.  If you slip in that scenario and you fluff your self-arrest, you might end up sliding a long way.  The rope is to give your partner or partners chance to dig in and help break your fall. 

All that will happen there is that the second climber will be pulled off too and if no gear has been placed they'll both fall to the bottom of the slope. The chances of your partner being able to hold you without a belay are very small. 

True to a point...

It's quite clear that you have absolutely no clue about the type of terrain we're talking about here or what constitutes best practice in moving across such terrain. And yet you continue to confidently spout nonsense to try and make it look like you know what you're on about.

Normally that wouldn't trouble me too much because normally it's low consequence stuff but on this occasion it is dangerous advice you're giving.