[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

My brother lived and worked in Scotland on and off for about 10 years. I was quite surprised (as was he) at some of the anti English feeling he experienced up there. It was more than banter as it had quite an edge to it and in some cases was quite vitriolic. Not something that I see reflected here in England.

Not read the report but I suspect it is not really worth reading if you want a look at the cold hard facts about what may happen. I can't help thinking that a Yes vote will give the Nationalists what they want ie Independence but it will not be the bed of roses they think / hope it will be. Employment opportunities may change - not necessarily for the better. For example, although they are cutting back massively at the moment, I wonder if Scottish applications to the UK armed forces will accepted. What about unemployment and unemployment benefit? Smaller pot to be funding that out of when it's just Scotland. Almost certain to see tax rise - possibly quite considerably. I dunno, maybe it will work, but it is likely to be a long and fairly rocky road.

gordimhor - Member 
Sorry thm I don't know but then I am not a golfist or a fifer. Elie is a nice place though and I did enjoy biking the Fife Coastal path. ...didn't enjoy cleaning the sand out

Having a bit of a joke there Gordie. I imagine that Elie is the (summer) home of the last remaining Tories in Scotland!! I used to enjoy the chain walk there and timing or mis-timing more often the tides. Had a few wet traverses of the final chains there years ago!!!

As I live in England and am English I have got to say I don't really care which way Scotland votes. I would quite like it to be decided a bit sooner though so we don't have to hear from that little weasel salmond.
I do think if you vote no then you are going to get screwed, but if you vote yes I think it will have massive negative effects on Scotland. I could see a lot of multinationals pulling out over concern about the currency issue.
If they do vote yes then Scotland should definitely get their level of debt and if rbs and hbos are to become Scottish then that debt needs to be paid too, our at the last Scotland will have payments to make to the rUK.
Good luck whatever happens as I wouldn't want to be up there dealing with it.

Ha! I might have to move with my job if it does go independent.

I know a few people who are in that boat, as they have already seen their companies making contingency plans if its a 'Yes'.

Mostly English, a bit Scottish and living in Scotland. I will be voting No because I genuinely believe that my life, and the others around me in Dundee, would be worse off in an independent Scotland.

I'm really only qualified to talk about the parts of the white paper that I am familiar with, which is University research, and bioscience at that. Scotland has 5 of the best research and teaching Universities in the UK (Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen and St. Andrews) and in terms of research funding are net takers compared to Scottish tax contribution to the UK economy. This allows for the infrastructure that supports the Universities teaching and research to be built and maintained through research grant overheads and money from HEFCE apportioned on the basis of research excellence. Basically good research allows for good teaching infrastructure. Under Salmonds proposal, research funding would be maintained and tuition would remain free but there is no mention of how this would be achieved economically. I don't believe it to be possible.

As Scotland wouldn't be eligible for EU grant funding until it had joined the EU that is another major avenue cut off (~20% currently EU funded in Scotland) while major charities (~25% of current funding) based in England have already said that they would be unlikely to continue to support research in Scotland "due to the unlikely ability of the University sector to support itself in a devolved Scottish economy" and the difficulties of cross border trading. Basically an independent Scotland would be a bad investment for research.

I could go on but what the white paper boils down to is essentially undeliverable, even with the most optimistic economic projections. 2 Scottish University Vice Chancellors have described the potential of Scottish independence as "an unthinkable disaster" and "the end of Scottish higher education and research". Another high up type even said that there is no point planning research strategies in an independent Scotland as the effects would be so devastating all plans would be rendered worthless. And no, none of these people were English.

As the Universities, particularly in Dundee, have helped enormously with economic impact and regeneration, crippling them would be a disaster. So much technology and innovation comes out of Universities that the loss of even a fraction of University research in Scotland would be a severe economic blow.

TL;DR? A most definite NO.

molgrips - Member 
Why are the needs of Scotland any different to those of Wales, Yorkshire, or Devon?

Think that's just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit, rather than a larger one, might not be most of us, we'll soon see.

Born in the highlands, grew up in Galloway, have lived in Manchester, St Andrews and Dundee as an adult and I'll be voting [b]yes[/b].

For me it's not about the SNP, it's a vote for a future with more locally focused politics. Sure we might end up with a Tory government but at least they'll be Scottish Tories who the majority must have voted for.

I dont mind paying a wee bit more in taxation if its for the greater good, and I think (or would like to) that most Scots are more left leaning and would support the same.

What's the current STW vote count btw? Must still be close....

Well put Shakleton - Scotland has some of the best UNIs in the UK - pity to put all that at risk. You and NW can debate it over a few beers!!!

Think that's just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit

My point is that the current UK has lots of regions with different needs. The needs vary according to socio economic profile, not ethnicity.

Some things are better on a larger scale, some on a smaller scale. That's why we all need devo max, and that's why I'd vote no, if I could.

Oh and you know damn well you'd just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster. The rich folk in Edinburgh aren't much closer to Highland sheep farmers than the ones in London. Only similarity is that they are Scottish. Which goes back to the jingoism argument.

This is getting on my goat!! Let them be independent, let them take their oil, just make sure they take their proportionate share of the debt, let them set up their own currency/central bank, make them apply to the EU independently and then watch them flurrish with local governance! !

This is getting on my goat!!

Terribly sorry that the future of the United Kingdom is so irritating.

Is it interrupting X Factor or something?

Maybe you shouldn't open threads about it if it gets you so worked up eh? 😉

Mol, but as noted before not the Shetlands!!! (if wee eck is to be believed)

Oh and you know damn well you'd just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster.

In fact that already happens IME.

I forgot to add, I think "we" as a nation would be better off sorting out the problem of Westminster style politics than fragmenting into ever smaller units. The UK is already being marginalised in the world order and Europe, we can't afford to be any smaller!

I for one hope that there will be a no vote but enough will say yes that it will scare Westminster and give Scotland (not Salmond hopefully) leverage to extract more powers for local governance.

Mol, but as noted before not the Shetlands!!! (if wee eck is to be believed)

/pedant mode on

There is no Shetlands, just Shetland

/pedant mode off

+1 Wot Shackleton just said.

The best hope I can see is a strong Yes minority that ensures we stay in the union but raises the issue of Devo Max again.

molgrips - Member 
Think that's just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit
My point is that the current UK has lots of regions with different needs. The needs vary according to socio economic profile, not ethnicity.

Some things are better on a larger scale, some on a smaller scale. That's why we all need devo max, and that's why I'd vote no, if I could.

Oh and you know damn well you'd just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster. The rich folk in Edinburgh aren't much closer to Highland sheep farmers than the ones in London. Only similarity is that they are Scottish. Which goes back to the jingoism argument.

Aye somethings are done better under another scale, but tbh, these larger scale things in the future need to be european(look at the chinese engineering projects too big for britain to match), so in europe, I'd rather scotland had an independent voice. Plus Scotland will work with England in loads of capacities post indepedence, what are England going to do, go in a huff and not come out to play? Never speak to us again?

Re bias towards the Central Belt, aye that may happen, Central belt will be much more answerable than westminster ever will be. Plus the Central Belt isn't in a vaccum in Scotland, it's where the vast majority live, but it also has connections that westminster doesn't have, so it'd be a much more immediate relationship with the other parts of Scotland, so aye possible, but the other parts of scotland gain access to a more controllable government, that's what it's also about, the level of interactivity and response of government.

GrahamS - Member
The alternative, for me, is Devo Max.
And since that isn't being offered, the status quo.

Basically I think we're stronger standing together (and I'm pro-european for much the same reason).
But that doesn't mean we can't self-govern.

I think that's mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

I have English parents but was born in Scotland and have lived all my life here. I'll be voting no. It would not be unfair to say that my encounters with people who will never consider me remotely Scottish have coloured my opinions in this debate.

For me the argument about Westminster rule rings very true, but is an argument for increased powers for the Scottish government (Devo Max), not a complete dissolution of the union.

Or an argument for a proper voting system, one that actually represents the populus, rather than the one we have now the clearly doesn't. Rather than splitting up the union we should should be trying to sort this place out.

For the record I neither hate the scots or want the uk to break up, but i really am bored with the politics of this country. I am 37 and have voted in every election I could but my vote has always been pointless because of where I live. People are scared of it but we need PR. IMO of course.

Edit: apologies for going slightly off topic!!

I think that's mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

Yep. The hill farmers of Scotland, Wales, NI, Yorkshire, Devon all need representing. The post-industrial areas of Clydeside, Tyneside, the Valleys all need representing. The rich suburbs of London, Edinburgh and.. er.. Cardiff.. all need representing too.

I'd rather Scotland stayed with us and helped provide a better UK than simply quit and leave us to the Westminster Wolves tbh. We need PR, we need social policies, and if the Scots leave we'll lose a lot of allies!

Scottish independence- where do you stand?

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It's likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

It'd be interesting to see an independent analysis of the effects of Scotland's ageing population on all this.

Something the UK will face regardless of the yes/no vote. But is this believably taken into account with the Yes camp predictions?

While I'm thinking about it, does anyone have any thoughts on whether EU country leaderships might cause problems for Scotland, in order to deter separatist movements within their own borders?

Not suggesting that is the case. But their are a few that might have the motive.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/22/europe-separatist-movements

Saw this and thought it might be relevant for those wanting a more considered response to Wee Ecks white paper.

[img] [/img]

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/we-check-the-snps-maths

All of the points above appear to be finding fault based on post-independence arrangements. The table clearly states that it is based on current constitutional arrangements.

F for reading comprehension.

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It's likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

Yeah I'm pretty much with you on this. Investment in decommissioning is already happening but even that will be relatively short term and it is clear the renewables industry will never be what they claimed it would be. I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction at the cost of the long term future of the country, and yet to see anything of substance to prove otherwise. Seems a bit of a shame really.

The problem is theres so many unanswered questions and points. Mostly caused by the Westminster governments refusal to even contemplate entering into any sort of debate about the make up of a post-independence British Isles.. prob because they know that if they actually start taking the prospect seriously other folk might do the same. Plus uncertainty works in their favour..
At the end of the day, we're all adults, and it would be in everyone's interest (if there was a yes vote) if we could sort shit like this out would it not? And that goes for RUK and The EU.

If they wanna go, go. But I want to take my holidays there still.

Serious question on the EU. Does any other county of relative size to an independent Scotland have the same opt outs, veto's or rebates being demanded by the SNP?
Would EU member states be happy for Scotland to continue to receive the UK rebate from CAP due to the UK's relatively low agricultural sector in the 80's, whilst receiving greater subsidies due to Scotlands greater farming sector going forward? Sounds like it should be one or the other.
Salmond today states that we will be welcomed with open arms due to an abundance of fish and wind. I do think most member states would be happy enough with, however may not tempt the veto wielding Spanish, who really should know their place.
To put it mildly, as much as I find our Dear Leader disagreeable, I do admire his gallus.

I think they actually want an increase on CAP

I honestly doubt that Spain would use the veto as they want to continue to fish in (what would be) Scottish waters. If Scotland was not ableto get membership of the EU there would probably be quite a lot of uncontrolled fishing in Scottish waters which would quickly be overfished thus leaving everyone including Spanish fishermen worse off than they were when they started. Just my opinion.

Fair enough gordimhor, however Spain has to weigh up the requirement of it's fishermen against other independence politics closer to home. We could be used as an example by Spain to show Catalunya.

rebel12 - Member

The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then?

Then we will no longer have the thing that makes us considerably more prosperous than the uk, and will only be roughly as prosperous. O noes.

I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction

Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM and are a) massaging the figures to justify it and b) leveraging current electoral dissatisfaction to get other people on board.

Seems like most Yes voters are focusing on point b.

[quote=athgray ]Fair enough gordimhor, however Spain has to weigh up the requirement of it's fishermen against other independence politics closer to home. We could be used as an example by Spain to show Catalunya.
The most interesting thing about the Spanish PMs statement last night is what he [i]didn't[/i] say. He gave his (unqualified) opinion on the Scottish membership process. That goes into the pile of other unqualified assessments on both sides of the argument (the Spanish Foreign Minister has previously said that the Scottish and Catalan cases are not similar). What he [i]could have[/i] said is that Spain would veto any Scottish membership application - i.e. something he has the power to do.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised that David Cameron and the No campaign haven't made more of an issue of the circumstances that might apply if iScotland was in the EU and rUK left. I reckon that would introduce a lot of border/currency issues - certainly more than would be the case if both remained members of the EU. Of course, in order to increase the effectiveness of that scare story, he'd have to put it forward as a genuine probability - and that's not something he can do and keep the Tory party together.

As has already been pointed out, only the EU Commissioners can give a definitive answer on Scotlands membership and they will only give that answer in response to a direct question from the UK Government. What possible reason could the UK Govt have for not seeking the answer to that question?

I agree scotroutes that Scotland in the EU and UK outside would be bad for both. Although the yes camp say Scotland does not decide elections due to people voting differently. I feel that as the majority of Scotland would vote for the EU, we could make a difference in any in/out referendum. That is a stage down the line. We could have another referendum if UK in the EU goes pear shaped.

In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

[quote=athgray ]I agree scotroutes that Scotland in the EU and UK outside would be bad for both. Although the yes camp say Scotland does not decide elections due to people voting differently. I feel that as the majority of Scotland would vote for the EU, we could make a difference in any in/out referendum. Ah - I hadn't thought about that one. I guess it [i]could[/i] make a difference if the voting was marginal

I guess there's also a risk that any rUK/EU negotiations in the future (such as envisaged by DC) might be less favourable for the rUK once Scotland is independent? With a smaller constituency would rUK get less voting power/delegates etc?

In the meantime if [b]UK style membership[/b] described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

molgrips - Member
Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM...

Yup, it will be nice to live as a citizen in a democracy rather than as a subject in a country with a "ruling class" (as admitted by one senior Tory the other day).

Nought wrong with freedom, plenty wrong with the alternative.

I didn't say freedom, I said FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM!

It's different.

The point I am trying to make is the SNP seek to join institutions we are already members of mainly on terms we pretty much have, i,e currency/Europe/Nato (I will concede slight difference with regard to nuclear weapons). I would not disagree that rUK/EU conditions should be renegotiated .
Sounds then like Scotland and rUK could be in Europe on less favouable terms."Better Together" I say.

Gotcha. So the EU question is "[i]how bad a deal would iScotland have to get before it's worse than we already have[/i]"? You're back to "re-directed" farming subsidies, less-favourable fishing negotiations etc. I guess these are the big imponderables 😐

English, living in Scotland for 20 years, and I'm a no. The crazy currency proposals and the naive NATO & EU assumptions from the SNP leave them with absolutely no credibility. IMO that haven't done too bad a job running the country, but the independence thing is totally unsustainable.

athgray - Member

In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

Er, I don't know if you noticed but there's a small matter of the UK anti-EU referendum coming up. If we want to be in the EU, there's less risk to that as an independent scotland.

Course, there's no certainty which way the UK will vote on that, but we know very well that England is more conservative, more right wing, more euroskeptic and more insular than Scotland on such matters, and that the UK very often gets what England wants.