[Closed] Scottish independence- where do you stand?

The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

The only reason any of this exists is because Scottish think of themselves as different, because Scotland used to be a different country.

I look at the UK deal scotroutes which isn't bad although I am no expert. I try to see how thinks affect the UK and not those North of Berwick/Carlisle. May get flamed for saying this, but I am as happy to see Northsea oil help those in Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, and even London, as Edinburgh and Aberdeen. We may all seek to benefit from shale gas deposits across Northern England in future.

I would repeat what I posted when George Galloway was told to go back to England from a Scottish taxi driver. He asked if he did not feel closer ties with a taxi driver in say Doncaster than with the Duke of Buccleuch.

I have a PM I didn't vote for, a First Minister I really don't like, an MP and MSP I didn't elect, and Uk and Holyrood governments I don't support. I don't however feel dissaffected by either. I can tell what I will end up with if I vote No. 🙂

molgrips - Member

The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that. I like to think the English voters aren't daft enough to take us out of europe but hey, precedents aren't great.

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.

Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don't you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories? Wasn't the previous Government Labour which the majority of Scotland did seem to vote for and wasn't the last Prime Minister Scottish?

of course having been out the country for a couple of year I'm only going off memories...

molgrips - Member
The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It's back to ethnic divisions again isn't it?

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.

Molgrips I reckon most Scots on all sides of this debate [b]know[/b] Scotland is a country

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for.

You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

Only 36% of a very low turnout voted Tory in the UK as a whole - not really fair to say that 'England voted for' the Tories.

mikewsmith - Member

Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don't you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories?

In practice, no, as we have a coalition government that does pretty much exactly what the Tories want to do.

grum - Member

You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

Yep, exactly- 4th choice in Scotland yet still running the country. That's some mandate to rule isn't it.

But Northwind do you not concede that by default you must have got what you voted when you got 3 terms of a labour government?

You could validly use that argument about the Tories Northwind, however the argument has been used that successive governments have subjugated the will of a nation. Everyone forgets the momentous election in 1997 that brought us 13 years of Scottish born Labour PM's. These Scots tooks us to war in Afghanistan, went into another war in Iraq based on false claims put forward by another Scot. Still didn't stop us voting Labour MP's.
I think middle England Tory voters may have more grievance to suggest Scotland took them into two unpoular wars.

Beat me to it mike.

Yes, of course. Should we be delighted that on a minority of occasions, we get the government we vote for?

[quote=athgray ]I think middle England Tory voters may have more grievance to suggest Scotland took them into two unpoular wars.
If the majority of Labour MPs had been Scots you would have a point.

Yep, exactly- 4th choice in Scotland yet still running the country. That's some mandate to rule isn't it.

Yet again - while I broadly agree with you - suggesting that everyone in England votes Tory and deserves a Tory government is inaccurate and insulting.

There was another Scottish party leader at that time.who described the decision to go to war as 'unpardonable folly' and got pelters for doing so. I wonder what happened to him!

Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for.

Should we be delighted that on a minority of occasions, we get the government we vote for?

I live in South Wales. South Wales votes labour mostly. So should South Wales be an independent country? Should every safe labour seat be an independent country because they don't like tories? Of course not but that's how democracy works. You win some, you lose some. There have been Labour governments after all.

What's the difference between Scotland and any other consistently Labour area? Nothing really except for Nationalism and the idea that Scots are different from the rest of us.

So what's the point of national boundaries, really?

[quote=molgrips ]
So what's the point of national boundaries, really?
You're in favour of European, nay, Worldwide political integration then? Let's not have any borders at all? I'm sure in time we'd all learn to speak mandarin.

I did not mean to imply that tory grievance was justified. It was as much an attempted dig at some Tory voters. Perhaps didn't come off well.

It's the difference between 'an area' and a' country. '

Not our dear leader surely gordimhor? You really like him don't you? As his countrymen and women continued to mainly elect Labour war mongering MP's he must have felt badly let down. I now feel we are undeserving of such a great man. Please forgive me. Yes, Yes, the answer is YES!!

There's nothing to stop any of the constituent nations of the UK seeking independence. There's nothing really to stop any group of people from any area campaigning for independence but it's going to be so much harder for areas that do not have the clear borders and higher profile of a country.

Glad to be of assistance athgray

No problem. Not often threads like this reach resolution.

There's nothing to stop any of the constituent nations of the UK seeking independence. There's nothing really to stop any group of people from any area campaigning for independence but it's going to be so much harder for areas that do not have the clear borders and higher profile of a country.

We will start with Northumbria then, I reckon Bamburgh casttle should do as HQ for now.
[img] [/img]

You're in favour of European, nay, Worldwide political integration then?

Different parts of the world have hugely different cultural, social and economic histories. They need to be administered separately because of it. Scotland isn't that different to the rest of the UK in most areas. And yes I've seen the voting map from 2010. But that's not grounds for secession really.

Electoral and constitutional reform would be far better than this. Plus it would also benefit the rest of us poor bastards who don't have oil fields.

Spoke to an English friend who lives near Elgin last night. She told me that she and her friends are firmly in the NO camp - BUT if the pro-independence movement were headed by a decent leader/politician they would be far more likely to vote yes, they don't trust Salmond and suspect he wants to be King of Scotland (maybe a little hyperbole there!)
So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

Elgin area == proportionally rather a lot of RAF service personnel, not sure how MOD plans after any independence would affect their jobs or at least postings.

Spoke to an English friend who lives near Elgin last night. She told me that she and her friends are firmly in the NO camp - BUT if the pro-independence movement were headed by a decent leader/politician they would be far more likely to vote yes, they don't trust Salmond and suspect he wants to be King of Scotland (maybe a little hyperbole there!)
So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

As far as I can tell, yes. Salmond is fuelling the No vote to a degree. That's just amongst peers btw.

Doubt it's much more that the conservatives fuelling the Yes vote.

So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?

Yes I've heard this from friends North of the border too. Many don't trust him as it's clear (like many politicians from every party) that he's on some sort of personal power trip, thinly veiled as a campaign for independence.

It seems from this thread and from asking people on several of my work trips to Scotland that generally the people who would vote YES are the disenfranchised, low paid, and those unhappy with their lot. It's easy to blame the English, the current political system or anyone but themselves for this predicament. For them the promise of FREEEDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM! they are being sold by Salmond, and a more insular, inward looking Scotland, is very appealing - in much the same way as a more insular, inward looking UK is appealing for the Sun reading ENGERLAAAAAND! ENGERLAAAAND! BNP voters in the UK.

All the Scot's I've spoken to who were successful, well educated, had traveled extensively etc were firmly in the NO camp as they could see the massive up sides of being part of a Union and could see through Alex Salmond's 'smoke and mirrors'.

I'll leave you to judge which group of the above would be the most suitably qualified to fully understand and assess the potential impact of Scotland being fully independent.

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

The most interesting thing about the Spanish PMs statement last night is what he didn't say.

Spain is not the only country with separatist movements in the EU. Eg France has 6 with varying degrees of seriousness, they also have a track record of vetoing EU entry. I've no idea of of their current stance on a iScotland entry. And I suspect they don't want New Caledonia (obviously not EU) getting any more ideas on independence than it already has. Has Belgium made any comments on this matter yet?

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

I didn't say 'all' - I said from those that I've personally met. Plus the most vocal on here seem to be blaming everything bad in Scotland on the English or because they didn't get the government they wanted at every single election.

rebel12 - Member
"So, is it Salmond himself who is fuelling the NO vote?"
Yes I've heard this from friends North of the border too. Many don't trust him as it's clear (like many politicians from every party) that he's on some sort of personal power trip, thinly veiled as a campaign for independence...

Considering that he is democratically elected with a greater proportion of the vote than the PM, the establishment press have done a brilliant job of smearing him as a would be dictator.

The Scottish Pravda (used to be called "The Scotsman") never misses an opportunity to push this angle. How representative it is of its readerships views is demonstrated by its massive decline in sales.

Scottish Westminster MPs are running around in circles desperately looking for life support systems after 2016 when their redundancy happens.

hopefully Yes, so I can go live in whichever country is the one with the best funded health and education systems.

So all of the No camp are stupid people with shit jobs? I don't buy that for a second. Indeed, we have had some very articulate contributors on here who disprove that theory.

Actually, I think surveys have shown that the higher your income, the more you're likely to vote No - too much to lose, and not affected by austerity measures I think.

Would that be the insular inward looking Scotland which wants to be a part of NATO and remain in the EU while having a policy on immigration that's fair and meets the countries needs. ?

Hmm. Disagree with you there rebel12. Voting yes because I feel all parties in westminster no longer represent the best intetests of everyone, and Scotland in particular obviously. The main parties all seem to be chasing the centre right because thats where they'll get a majority. Not out of hatred for the English or for "Freeeeeeedom" but because I'd like a government that seems to act in the interests of our society as a whole,not just specific groups or parts of it.. If I am disenfranchised its for a good reason.
Bit of a sweeping generalisation there which I totally disagree with.

Someone please post up a link to the latest "party leader satisfaction ratings". 🙄

Considering that he is democratically elected with a greater proportion of the vote than the PM, the establishment press have done a brilliant job of smearing him as a would be dictator.

I don't think you can argue that the only reason people don't like Salmond is some kind of media conspiracy against him.

Plus the most vocal on here seem to be blaming everything bad in Scotland on the English

or because they didn't get the government they wanted at every single election.

Why should they not be cross about English voters giving them a govt and policies they dont want? It actually happens its factually correct - though not for every election but certainly for every Tory win.
I think if they never vote tory and often get tory govts then that is a legitimate concern for any democracy /country.

certainly for every Tory win

They didn't win this time though.

I think if they never vote tory and often get tory govts then that is a legitimate concern for any democracy /country.

Why? There are lots of areas of the UK that never vote Tory but get a Tory Government? What is so special about Scotland?

They didn't win this time though.

What is so special about Scotland?

Why did you need to ask why a country is different from an area?

Why? There are lots of areas of the UK that never vote Tory but get a Tory Government? What is so special about Scotland?

Exactly there are lots of people who want the 'Green Party' in government. but the Greens never get in. It's not fair! Should they be throwing their toys out of the pram too perhaps? Maybe best to become independent, have their own island where everyone eats Tofu and lights their own farts to keep warm?

Do you really think that after independence you're going to get the party you vote for at every single election, do you really think that an Edinburgh centric government is going to do what's in the best interest for the Weegie's, the Highlands and Islands or Shetland? Maybe they should all be independent too?

The 1/2 million votes the SNP got may have helped labour a little bit.

Why did you need to ask why a country is different from an area?

I didn't. I asked what is so special about Scotland?

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and is not a Nation State. Just because they don't like the elected Government it is not a justification for independence.

grum - Member

Yet again - while I broadly agree with you - suggesting that everyone in England votes Tory and deserves a Tory government is inaccurate and insulting.

And I'd be daft to do so, so I didn't.

molgrips - Member

What's the difference between Scotland and any other consistently Labour area?

Is it the "being a different country" thing? To be fair though it's not just that, it's also the "having the resources and the will to do something about it" thing.

Electoral and constitutional reform would be far better than this.

I agree. But since that's not really on the table, and shows no sign of arriving, I'll take what is. My vote in Scotland can effect electoral and constitutional change, my vote at Westminster won't.

Truth is, we have a 2 party system and they're mostly interested in scrapping over which of the 2 gets to be in charge, and thus mostly not too interested in disturbing things. Completely understandable tbh but it's an impressive barrier to change.